Frontier's release plan is genius

Juniper

Juniper
ZeeWolf said:
But there are no reviews of "alpha" or "beta" games. I really think there should be now, developers are asking for the cash now, give me the reviews.

I don't think the term "alpha" gave you any specific expectations in the Odyssey process. You knew it "wasn't release", they could have called it "Testing cycle one" or "Frontier still in dev version 496" and you'd had understood that it just wan't ready for release.

Do you think the number of consumers that won't buy Star Citizen because they don't have an intended release date or they stick "Alpha" on the product is a huge concern to CIG when they make a huge amount of cash from another massive group of gamers that are happy to do so, because they talk about "supporting"? Do you think if we were actually able to be honest about it, people who buy into Star Citizen, do so having no real idea what state the product is in - but because they want to have a bit of fun trying out the cool ships and enjoying a bit of escapism. I think that's the reality. There may in fact be a perfectly reasonable market there but CIG haven't yet found out a way to do it that's "consumer friendly" IMHO any more than anyone else, that's why they have 10k subscribers to the refund subreddit. That's problematic.

There may well be a perfectly reasonable future in which developers can involve the consumer in the process in a way that's consumer friendly. I think Frontier are correct to try to be accountable and call it a "release", the game will probably suffer some mixed reviews but continue to find an audience just like it always does. Long term I think it's an interesting prospect.
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Star Citizen is a good case in point.

People love to slag CIG off for never actually releasing the game (including me at times), but at least they are being honest with people and saying it's not finished. They tell people that things are subject to change, other things may not work, etc. Managing expectations... which if you're also an experienced dev, you'll know is almost a daily task with clients. CIG have never claimed that Star Citizen is release-worthy... instead they bung alpha after alpha on their servers and let people play with it. But they know (and make clear) that this is unfinished & possibly broken work.

I don't know the reasons why people buy & play Star Citizen, but I do know (through long, sometimes bitter experience) that customers are far more forgiving of bugs and issues if they've been warned ahead of time. It's nasty shocks they don't like.
 

CMDR Karrde Sun

CMDR Karrde Sun
Since this has become a frontier analysis thread.. heard something in a recent elite week podcast which is quite telling:

Timestamped link:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aVOCAuiB-o&t=2834s


I find it interesting that he said they're doing it themselves... he didn't say all those chris roberts preechings.. they're naturally playing the role of corporate publisher as well. This isn't good or bad, but it could explain alot.. and what happened from that point onwards.
 

Juniper

Juniper
CMDR Karrde Sun said:
Well, not really going forward. With the console release and horizons "fold down" in 6 months, for the first time its been very obvious whats going on. In the past we kind of had to take their marketing at face value and assume not polite things about their development skills to explain everything. There's more data we can use now to understand better.
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I'm assuming the point in the roadmap 6 months down the line is what the developers would have intended to have ready for launch. And you're right, it's good that they have offered that clarity. How many will read it before they buy though?

But the 'go for launch' decision has been taken out of their hands, and that's the gist of my point here really. 🤷‍♀️
 

ZeeWolf

ZeeWolf
Juniper said:
Star Citizen is a good case in point.

People love to slag CIG off for never actually releasing the game (including me at times), but at least they are being honest with people and saying it's not finished. They tell people that things are subject to change, other things may not work, etc. Managing expectations... which if you're also an experienced dev, you'll know is almost a daily task with clients. CIG have never claimed that Star Citizen is release-worthy... instead they bung alpha after alpha on their servers and let people play with it. But they know (and make clear) that this is unfinished & possibly broken work.

I don't know the reasons why people buy & play Star Citizen, but I do know (through long, sometimes bitter experience) that customers are far more forgiving of bugs and issues if they've been warned ahead of time. It's nasty shocks they don't like.
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We're back to "hey there's this great restaurant where the food is all uncooked and you eat while they are still cooking it, it says 'uncooked food' so that's ok, the food is more expensive so YOU know it's good and they are always putting new stuff on the menu"

I don't think that's honest myself. It's obfuscating. It's just sold with no accountability. Can't read a review.

Work out a release and take accountability.
 

Northpin

Northpin
Rat Catcher said:
Well done, creating an account to come and complain - it appears to be pretty common. ;)
I created mine to ask for help, which was given virtually immediately.

Each of us come here for our own reasons - how strange 🤷‍♂️
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Ofc i did.
They do need feedback - else they dont seem to know their releases are sometimes riddled with bugs.
And i was happy to oblige.

Edited for accuracy :D
 
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Murfelton

M
Juniper said:
Star Citizen is a good case in point.

People love to slag CIG off for never actually releasing the game (including me at times), but at least they are being honest with people and saying it's not finished. They tell people that things are subject to change, other things may not work, etc. Managing expectations... which if you're also an experienced dev, you'll know is almost a daily task with clients. CIG have never claimed that Star Citizen is release-worthy... instead they bung alpha after alpha on their servers and let people play with it. But they know (and make clear) that this is unfinished & possibly broken work.

I don't know the reasons why people buy & play Star Citizen, but I do know (through long, sometimes bitter experience) that customers are far more forgiving of bugs and issues if they've been warned ahead of time. It's nasty shocks they don't like.
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Ah yes, CIG is a great model for business ethics that other companies should strive to emulate. 😬
 

Rat Catcher

Rat Catcher
Northpin said:
Ofc i did.
They do need feedback - else they dont seem to know their releases are sometimes riddled with bugs.
And i was happy to oblige.
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They are probably much more aware than you give them credit for... but they also know that it is expected of them, so why change?
 

Mengy

Mengy
Quantis Trap said:
If I understand correctly the plan which Frontier has explained in the last few days, I think it's genius!
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It's a good move for Frontier's profit margins, but it's not good at bringing value for the customers.

  • Basic FPS gameplay mechanics
  • Shallow biologics game loop for explorers
  • No real new content for traders, miners, pasengers, or scavengers
  • Very likely not enough time taken to address issues & bugs raised in the alpha
  • Splitting up the player base in a myriad of ways (PC EDO vs PC Horizons vs Console players)
  • Missing many features players really wanted in EDO (ship interiors, new ships, FC bridges, new SRV's, caves, etc)

EDO seems very rushed even despite it's three plus years of development. Getting it out now will help Frontier's bottom line but many of us feel this is going to be a very messy launch. Hopefully it isn't and it goes swimmingly.
 

Juniper

Juniper
ZeeWolf said:
We're back to "hey there's this great restaurant where the food is all uncooked and you eat while they are still cooking it, it says 'uncooked food' so that's ok, the food is more expensive so YOU know it's good and they are always putting new stuff on the menu"

I don't think that's honest myself. It's obfuscating. It's just sold with no accountability. Can't read a review.

Work out a release and take accountability.
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Maybe, but that's really the risk of releasing an uncooked piece of software. They run the real risk of taking accountability all right, but it's not fair to judge until it's really cooked. It will not stop anyone though.

Believe it or not, I actually want E: D and Frontier to succeed, and this premature release may harm them. We'll see.

It's a very strange one, because it's not like they are desperate for the cash. The company is still doing OK.
 

ZeeWolf

ZeeWolf
Juniper said:
Maybe, but that's really the risk of releasing an uncooked piece of software. They run the real risk of taking accountability all right, but it's not fair to judge until it's really cooked. It will not stop anyone though.

Believe it or not, I actually want E: D and Frontier to succeed, and this premature release may harm them. We'll see.

It's a very strange one, because it's not like they are desperate for the cash. The company is still doing OK.
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That's super convenient for them though, to be able to sell you something and just slap one greek letter on that means no inconvenient reviews, not much support, not much QA, not much in the way of standards. Just "er it's an alpha so it's ok".
 

Juniper

Juniper
CMDR Karrde Sun said:
They haven't offered anything. We all lining up whats been annouced and played in the alpha with what could make sense. When they mark the steam dlc item as "early access", then it might be more clear. imo :)
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To be fair, they've told us that instancing is effectively broken. They've told us there will be no VR at launch. Nor ship interiors. And the "Armstrong Moment ™" is a black screen and a magical teleport, which Neil Armstrong clearly used in 1969. I probably know more about what isn't in Odyssey than what actually is, since (as mentioned) the alpha was basically unplayable as was, for me.

So what I mean is - they've offered clarity on what's not there and what should / will be there when Odyssey is ready for release in approximately 6 months time.
 

Juniper

Juniper
ZeeWolf said:
That's super convenient for them though, to be able to sell you something and just slap one greek letter on that means no inconvenient reviews, not much support, not much QA, not much in the way of standards. Just "er it's an alpha so it's ok".
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So, to be clear, your main beef with slapping an "early access" tag on it is that it won't be reviewed in full by the gaming press? (and EA reviews do happen btw, but they are marked as such)

Whether people think bugs / incomplete features in alpha/beta/EA are a deal breaker is up to the individual, surely?

I think it's worse to try and sell something that pretends to be "finished" when everyone can see that it isn't.
 

Dutchman141

Dutchman141
Genius wasn't the first word that popped into my mind when I heard the we, console peasants, had to wait at least half a year after the release on pc.
Looking back now I'm glad about the delayed release though, it gives me plenty of time to consider if I might change my mind about buying EDO at all.
As it stands now I won't buy it but perhaps things might get improved altough I'm not holding my breath.
 

Chrystoph

Chrystoph
Juniper said:
I couldn't play the alpha at all because of a game breaking bug (none of the consoles on the stations would open). In alpha 1, I couldn't even board the shuttle. But I let it go, because it's an alpha. If it was a full release - it would have been an instant refund.
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A couple of years ago, I was part of an FPS beta. The beta was free, and I was required to provide feedback at the end of each round. When the game went live, beta testers, as a reward, were allowed to keep their progress if they bought the game.

Notice, nowhere in that scenario did I pay them for me to test their software.
 
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