Frontier's release plan is genius

[ZeeWolf]

I was trying to avoid using that card (32 years here) - since you seem quite happy going on with yourself.

"Alpha" and "Beta" have no universal meaning. That's one reason why Steam uses the term "early access", which for my mind, E: D has been in for the last seven years. However, they don't say that - and that for me is dishonest and misleading.

The full release of Odyssey on Wednesday is simply compounding the error. And I'm pretty sure it's not the dev's idea - this all comes from marketing and accounts. Things like instancing, ship interiors, VR support, console support, etc (or lack thereof) is the developers basically telling the world that it's not ready for full release yet. But here we are... charging full price for an incomplete product.

Unfortunately for them, they will hang by it. And that's sad for everyone.

Maybe. But the basic act of "releasing" software in a state where you say "yes we as a company are accountable, please review and purchase based on this unit of work that stands up on it's own merits or not" is infinatly better than slapping Alpha/Beta on the box and saying "you buy at your own risk"

Unfortunatly there is a massive growing market in selling games in this manner and consumers seem to do the mental gymnatics themselves to believe they are "supporting" the developer.

I fear it has no benefit to the consumer other than they are spending cash and time on games that developers are not being accountable for.

I don't mind the early access/testing process but where there are no release timelines or strategy leading to a release I think it's unethical, where there is money changing hands (as with Frontier) I think it's problematic.

 

[Northpin]

But I guess it will always rain tomorrow

Well, weather can be accurately predicted for 3 to 7 days in advance, accuracy being lower as the date is further in the future.
Which means that next 24h predictions are very accurate.

What we cannot seem to be able to accurately predict is the Odyssey system requirements.
And not even Frontier seems to be able to
And the launch is in less than 3 days

 

[Juniper]

As a game developer of 32 years, can you define "hang by it" and when that will happen exactly for Fdev? I'm keen to understand how you measure this terminal-sounding situation.

I'm asking because, despite its flaws (many that is has), I'm quite enjoying the game and have done on and off since 2014, I'm looking forward to Odyssey and apparently the game has been doing quite well in recent months. I personally don't care if they call it early access or Larry, I paid for something and feel I got my money's worth and I'm sure others would disagree with that from their own experiences but very few games can boast to be universally treasured.

Looking forward to learning from your professional expertise on the topic because I'm sure we've been told the game's going to die a number of times by experts and I would love to know when that is going to be so I can plan for it, at least. Assuming that's what you mean by "hang by it". Because being hanged isn't great, I don't think.

I haven't been a game developer for all of that time - but that's how I started (on the C64, if you're interested).

What I mean is - since Odyssey is marked as "full release - complete" - it will be reviewed as such. And those reviewers may not have any special affiliation with the game or Frontier, and will call a spade a spade to give a fully honest review.

Releasing buggy, incomplete software into the marketplace under those circumstances is basically asking for trouble. Maybe they'll get away with it - but I doubt it. I expect it to be absolutely panned by the gaming press, which creates a negative perception that will be very hard to get rid of (look at NMS, Cyberpunk 2077, etc), which will ultimately hurt sales.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

This thread does make fascinating reading though!

Amazing what happens when the people who do nothing but give scorecard opinions on other posters give up and go away. Crazy antics, real topics! Can't happen can it. Thats unpredictable! EDIT: Sorry rc I know its getting old now

 

[m0rl0ck]

If anything, Horizons Players and Consoles get to keep functional User Interfaces - whereas for Odyssey Players..... well, a proverbial Odyssey of fighting some of the new UIs will begin.

Just looking at the System Map in Odyssey.... lol OMG. During Alpha, I thought the Galaxy Map was bad - but then the System Map easily took the cake for "worst UI design award".
(seeing Carrier Pearl strings infesting the new System Maps just like the old ones just added bitter irony to it all )

Anyway, looking forward with mixed feelings to "PC Beta 1.0" that'll commence on 19th.
But as others said, having several months of PC Beta Testing should provide invaluable feedback for the actual Release 1.0 down the line when all platforms get the real thing.

Yeah when i read the announcement my first hope was that maybe we will get to log in to horizons to plot a course and relog to osyssey at the destination system.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Well, weather can be accurately predicted...

Not in the UK, or at least not in all of the years I've been alive.

But, fortunately, Odyssey will release on Wednesday and the forum will be full of salt regardless of the state it launches - this is the way of things

 

[Rat Catcher]

Amazing what happens when the people who do nothing but give scorecard opinions on other posters give up and go away. Crazy antics, real topics! Can't happen can it. Thats unpredictable!

Are you ok?

 

[ZeeWolf]

I haven't been a game developer for all of that time - but that's how I started (on the C64, if you're interested).

What I mean is - since Odyssey is marked as "full release - complete" - it will be reviewed as such. And those reviewers may not have any special affiliation with the game or Frontier, and will call a spade a spade to give a fully honest review.

Releasing buggy, incomplete software into the marketplace under those circumstances is basically asking for trouble. Maybe they'll get away with it - but I doubt it. I expect it to be absolutely panned by the gaming press, which creates a negative perception that will be very hard to get rid of (look at NMS, Cyberpunk 2077, etc), which will ultimately hurt sales.

I am interested, I still have my C64 ;-)

I don't disagree with you on those points. Just that as with any developer, if now is the time you want to take the cash now is the time you should be accountable and say "Yes it's a release and ready for consumer review and critique" with no caveats.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Yep, I've been calling it since their reveal of "alpha" - Odyssey is unfinished and nowhere near release state.

 

[Juniper]

Maybe. But the basic act of "releasing" software in a state where you say "yes we as a company are accountable, please review and purchase based on this unit of work that stands up on it's own merits or not" is infinatly better than slapping Alpha/Beta on the box and saying "you buy at your own risk"

Unfortunatly there is a massive growing market in selling games in this manner and consumers seem to do the mental gymnatics themselves to believe they are "supporting" the developer.

I fear it has no benefit to the consumer other than they are spending cash and time on games that developers are not being accountable for.

I don't mind the early access/testing process but where there are no release timelines or strategy leading to a release I think it's unethical, where there is money changing hands (as with Frontier) I think it's problematic.

Slapping an "alpha", "beta" or "early access" tag onto a title doesn't change the dev accountability. I'm not sure why you think that. If anything, it makes it more important that the devs continue to update and finish the game.

It does however let consumers know that this isn't finished - but you can buy & play now if you want, and in doing so, you're supporting the devs. It also means that players are generally more forgiving of major bugs.

I couldn't play the alpha at all because of a game breaking bug (none of the consoles on the stations would open). In alpha 1, I couldn't even board the shuttle. But I let it go, because it's an alpha. If it was a full release - it would have been an instant refund.

 

[Rat Catcher]

EDIT: Sorry rc I know its getting old now

Patterns are easy to predict - what would throw things completely would be if posts were 'out of character', that would be confusing indeed!

Fortunately, none of the posters have changed the patterns established over the years, so all is well in the forum

 

[Ydiss]

I haven't been a game developer for all of that time - but that's how I started (on the C64, if you're interested).

What I mean is - since Odyssey is marked as "full release - complete" - it will be reviewed as such. And those reviewers may not have any special affiliation with the game or Frontier, and will call a spade a spade to give a fully honest review.

Releasing buggy, incomplete software into the marketplace under those circumstances is basically asking for trouble. Maybe they'll get away with it - but I doubt it. I expect it to be absolutely panned by the gaming press, which creates a negative perception that will be very hard to get rid of (look at NMS, Cyberpunk 2077, etc), which will ultimately hurt sales.

So your professional qualifications on the matter probably didn't need to be called into it then do they? Your opinion is that of a consumer and not particularly a well informed one:

Elite: Dangerous Reviews

The next game in the Elite series - a space epic with fully multi-player. Carve your own path through a rich gaming sandbox, set against a backdrop of raw anarchy, galactic powerplays and intrigue. Do whatever it takes to upgrade your ship’s hull, engines, weapons, defences, cargo hold...

www.metacritic.com

They've "gotten away with it". Generably favourable reviews. And we get to see once annually how well they're doing fiscally. The answer has been "very well". The bottom line is you are just a consumer with an opinion on the game and your opinion is that it's not good enough and that's cool, you can just opt out.

PS Projekt Red have done pretty well out of Cyberpunk 2077, a game that I loved playing and will play again. They also did really well out of The Witcher 3, which I'm told suffered a similarly spectatularly bad launch too. No one remembers that though, do they? It's a well received game. And, the classic Hello Games! Living proof that you can turn around a negative perception that is just about as bad as it gets and now they're celebrated and NMS is doing (and actually always has done) really well.

All you've done is cite examples of projects that are flawed yet are still popular and do really well. I can give you a few examples of projects that didn't do so well, if you'd like?

 

[Juniper]

I am interested, I still have my C64 ;-)

I don't disagree with you on those points. Just that as with any developer, if now is the time you want to take the cash now is the time you should be accountable and say "Yes it's a release and ready for consumer review and critique" with no caveats.

In that case, look up "T-Bird" and "Yogi's Great Escape" for starters. If you want a laugh.

I think it's very clear the developers are not the ones calling the shots here with the release schedule. But they will get the blame, because that's how it works unfortunately.

 

[Juniper]

So your professional qualifications on the matter probably didn't need to be called into it then do they? Your opinion is that of a consumer and not particularly a well informed one:

Exactly, which is why I didn't bring it up until the person I was talking to did also. You shouldn't take my word over anyone else's just because I'm a developer too.

 

[Wrecked]

What I'm waiting for is the announcement that "We're sorry, we've really tried, but there's just no way we can make the new planet tech deliver acceptable performance on last-gen consoles."

I remember a livestream a few years ago when one of the devs admitted that the challenge in completing the burning stations scenario was coming up with something that would run on consoles - I don't remember clearly if he singled out the PS4 by name, but that was the gist.

I suspect the additional delay before console launch isn't just a matter of completing the work but of continuing to try to figure out how to.

PC player as I am, I'll still be very happy to be proved wrong.

Biggest mistake FDev made was pursuing consoles for this game. I can imagine every idea’s first question is “but will it work on 8 year old hardware that was mid grade at the time?”

 

[ZeeWolf]

Slapping an "alpha", "beta" or "early access" tag onto a title doesn't change the dev accountability. I'm not sure why you think that. If anything, it makes it more important that the devs continue to update and finish the game.

It does however let consumers know that this isn't finished - but you can buy & play now if you want, and in doing so, you're supporting the devs. It also means that players are generally more forgiving of major bugs.

I couldn't play the alpha at all because of a game breaking bug (none of the consoles on the stations would open). In alpha 1, I couldn't even board the shuttle. But I let it go, because it's an alpha. If it was a full release - it would have been an instant refund.

But there are no reviews of "alpha" or "beta" games. I really think there should be now, developers are asking for the cash now, give me the reviews.

I don't think the term "alpha" gave you any specific expectations in the Odyssey process. You knew it "wasn't release", they could have called it "Testing cycle one" or "Frontier still in dev version 496" and you'd had understood that it just wan't ready for release.

Do you think the number of consumers that won't buy Star Citizen because they don't have an intended release date or they stick "Alpha" on the product is a huge concern to CIG when they make a huge amount of cash from another massive group of gamers that are happy to do so, because they talk about "supporting"? Do you think if we were actually able to be honest about it, people who buy into Star Citizen, do so having no real idea what state the product is in - but because they want to have a bit of fun trying out the cool ships and enjoying a bit of escapism. I think that's the reality. There may in fact be a perfectly reasonable market there but CIG haven't yet found out a way to do it that's "consumer friendly" IMHO any more than anyone else, that's why they have 10k subscribers to the refund subreddit. That's problematic.

There may well be a perfectly reasonable future in which developers can involve the consumer in the process in a way that's consumer friendly. I think Frontier are correct to try to be accountable and call it a "release", the game will probably suffer some mixed reviews but continue to find an audience just like it always does. Long term I think it's an interesting prospect.

 

[Northpin]

But, fortunately, Odyssey will release on Wednesday and the forum will be full of salt regardless of the state it launches - this is the way of things

Not regardless.
Because of it.

There wasnt any ED release i remember (starting with Nov.2018) that didn't released in a more or less bad state - at least for the first week, sometimes for the first 4 weeks. Or even more.
As a short recollection - even your truly made a forum account specifically to complain about the discovery loop bug introduced in 24 January 2019 by the fix 3.3.03 that was supposed to fix somethings but also broke other things. IIRC it was fixed in 3.3.04, 3.5 weeks later.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

In that case, look up "T-Bird" and "Yogi's Great Escape" for starters. If you want a laugh.

I think it's very clear the developers are not the ones calling the shots here with the release schedule. But they will get the blame, because that's how it works unfortunately.

Well, not really going forward. With the console release and horizons "fold down" in 6 months, for the first time its been very obvious whats going on. In the past we kind of had to take their marketing at face value and assume not polite things about their development skills to explain everything. There's more data we can use now to understand better.

 

[Murfelton]

Slapping an "alpha", "beta" or "early access" tag onto a title doesn't change the dev accountability. I'm not sure why you think that. If anything, it makes it more important that the devs continue to update and finish the game.

It does however let consumers know that this isn't finished - but you can buy & play now if you want, and in doing so, you're supporting the devs. It also means that players are generally more forgiving of major bugs.

Other than Horizons-Odyssey cross-play - which only inconveniences some players - there is nothing to indicate that Odyssey is not finished on release. It’s not a seasons model, so there are no other (yet known) features to be added.

Saying that it‘s “early release” when there are no Odyssey-specific features planned to be added is more misleading than “release”, as ”early access” normally suggests that features might be added.

 

[Rat Catcher]

As a short recollection - even your truly made a forum account specifically to complain about the discovery loop bug introduced in 24 January 2019 by the fix 3.3.03 that was supposed to fix somethings but also broke other things. IIRC it was fixed in 3.3.04, 3.5 weeks later.

Well done, creating an account to come and complain - it appears to be pretty common.
I created mine to ask for help, which was given virtually immediately.

Each of us come here for our own reasons - how strange