Anything that disrupts targeting should disrupt Night Vision, as well.

[DemiserofD]

If something looks like duck, sounds like duck and walks like duck then it is duck
It uses radar principle because chaffs work against it. I.e. beam out + catch beam back.

That can't be the case, because modern chaff is used primarily as a missile countermeasure, while the missiles in Elite have no issue tracking a chaffing target. Not to mention, in the modern era, chaff is basically irrelevant, as radar can usually differentiate between chaff and the actual target.

Clearly, they must operate via alternative means, which means the gameplay results can be whatever we want them to be!

Do you actually have any gameplay problems with the idea?

 

[alexzk]

Do you actually have any gameplay problems with the idea?

Yes, it was no NV first year of E-D. Then it was added later. Why do we need to remove it again?
I only see single reason - u want hide in pvp. Well, play solo.

 

[DemiserofD]

Yes, it was no NV first year of E-D. Then it was added later. Why do we need to remove it again?

Mostly because, while NV was a great addition for many aspects of the game, such as piloting on the dark sides of planets or in asteroid belts, it basically shut down cold running combat ships. It doesn't matter how cold or dark you are, if anyone can see you and snipe out your modules with a railgun, simply by pressing one uncounterable button.

I'm a big fan of cold-running ships. I think they liven up the amount of possibilities in the game, make it better overall, and I want to see them viable.

A side benefit is that by making night vision interact with other aspects of the game, it can make it feel more immersive and enjoyable overall.

I wouldn't suggest this if I didn't think it would be a good idea! Honest!

 

[alexzk]

if anyone can see you and snipe out your modules with a railgun, simply by pressing one uncounterable button.

As I said - pvp fan. I don't play open/pvp, so for me it is terrible idea, as it will affect my NPC fights too.
So no, I don't want it.

P.S. I think CQC does not have vision + radar can't see through rocks and it is pure pvp.

 

[DemiserofD]

As I said - pvp fan. I don't play open/pvp, so for me it is terrible idea, as it will affect my NPC fights too.
So no, I don't want it.

P.S. I think CQC does not have vision + radar can't see through rocks and it is pure pvp.

Actually, I don't pvp. Never ganked, never did casual pvp, etc. Logged in to fight a streamer once, but that's it. That shouldn't be an argument against it, in any case.

Anyway, even though I don't pvp, I still want it, and think it would make the game better, as a whole. Night vision as it currently stands is far too unrealistic and unimmersive for a game that otherwise is fairly decent at that. No way technology like that would exist and nobody would figure out a way to scramble it.

 

[varonica]

I daresay the majority actually is in favor of breaking physics;

I dare say you don't talk for the majority and have no idea what the majority wants!

This particular player will day raalistic physics over magic any day because that's essentially what you are asking for. Any time magic is requested to be included as part of the game the answer will be no, because this is a Sci-Fi game not a fantasy game!

 

[DemiserofD]

I dare say you don't talk for the majority and have no idea what the majority wants!

This particular player will day raalistic physics over magic any day because that's essentially what you are asking for. Any time magic is requested to be included as part of the game the answer will be no, because this is a Sci-Fi game not a fantasy game!

The example I referenced was fairly convincing, I'd say. They started out with somewhat realistic limits on engineering materials, but so many players complained, they changed it to a much less realistic system with individualized capacity. Now you're capable of somehow carrying around enough materials to reload your weapons hundreds of times, yet somehow can't just load them up with that on a station, and none of it takes any extra weight.

When it comes to convenience over realism, players will pick convenience, every time.

 

[alexzk]

The example I referenced was fairly convincing, I'd say. They started out with somewhat realistic limits on engineering materials, but so many players complained, they changed it to a much less realistic system with individualized capacity. Now you're capable of somehow carrying around enough materials to reload your weapons hundreds of times, yet somehow can't just load them up with that on a station, and none of it takes any extra weight.

When it comes to convenience over realism, players will pick convenience, every time.

Don't u think ammo weight is already included in module weight?
Also synth ...well, I'm not sure how it works, but E=mc^2. So synth machine may need 100g of materials + GJs of energy and make 1Kg of ammo.

 

[DemiserofD]

Don't u think ammo weight is already included in module weight?

Doesn't change the fact we can magically carry hundreds or thousands of reloads worth of engineering materials, all without caring about weight or volume, just because players complained that a more realistic amount of storage space was too inconvenient.

My point being, I feel fairly justified in saying players will value convenience over realism.

 

[alexzk]

Doesn't change the fact we can magically carry hundreds or thousands of reloads worth of engineering materials, all without caring about weight or volume, just because players complained that a more realistic amount of storage space was too inconvenient.

My point being, I feel fairly justified in saying players will value convenience over realism.

Also synth ...well, I'm not sure how it works, but E=mc^2. So synth machine may need 100g of materials + GJs of energy and make 1Kg of ammo.

 

[DemiserofD]

Haha, well, we can do the math real quick!

Given the a class 8A Overcharged power plant produces 50.4MW of energy, it produces 50400000 joules per second. However, in a kg of mass, there are 89,875,517,873,681,764 joules, meaning an 8A Overcharged Powerplant would take approximately 495345.66 hours at maximum energy production to create one kilogram of mass.

Unfortunately, this seems somewhat unlikely!

However, you do illustrate my point; it's easy to come up with technobabble to justify any desired gameplay change. And that's the right way to go about it; gameplay first, always. Realism second. Otherwise you'll end up with a very realistic, very bad game.

 

[alexzk]

However, you do illustrate my point; it's easy to come up with technobabble to justify any desired gameplay change. And that's the right way to go about it; gameplay first, always. Realism second. Otherwise you'll end up with a very realistic, very bad game.

yeh, except you wish to create destructible blackhole, which is not possible. They will survive end of Universe.
Because there is only 1 way to catch all possible lights - BH.

 

[DemiserofD]

yeh, except you wish to create destructible blackhole, which is not possible. They will survive end of Universe.
Because there is only 1 way to catch all possible lights - BH.

Haha, fortunately, this doesn't require the creation of a black hole; you've just gotta confuse the software that they use to simulate a 3d glow effect.

Which is substantially easier. Heck, given it seems to be an open-source program available to everyone for free, I'd be more surprised if someone didn't figure out how to spoof it in about 2 days! Especially since actual lives are on the line.

 

[alexzk]

Haha, fortunately, this doesn't require the creation of a black hole; you've just gotta confuse the software that they use to simulate a 3d glow effect.

Which is substantially easier. Heck, given it seems to be an open-source program available to everyone for free, I'd be more surprised if someone didn't figure out how to spoof it in about 2 days! Especially since actual lives are on the line.

Yes, u can watch ur walls and imagine any game there going.
Physically to stop all lights in vacuum , so object cannot be seen you must create BH. Otherwise it is magic and magic game. There are some like - NMS and SC, go play them where magic is possible.

 

[DemiserofD]

Yes, u can watch ur walls and imagine any game there going.
Physically to stop all lights in vacuum , so object cannot be seen you must create BH. Otherwise it is magic and magic game. There are some like - NMS and SC, go play them where magic is possible.

Unfortunately, night vision requires a bit more than just random light input to function, haha. The way it currently functions is closer to magic, actually; contrast it with real life night vision, that is blinded by bright or hot objects and doesn't work in many circumstances, even without an active enemy attempting to prevent its use!

The more realistic approach would be that there would absolutely be countermeasures against it, just like chaff and ECM were created for other means of attack. And for gameplay reasons, why bother adding a specific module just for that, when you could save time and effort and merge them?

Seems like a no-brainer to me!

 

[alexzk]

Unfortunately, night vision requires a bit more than just random light input to function, haha. The way it currently functions is closer to magic, actually; contrast it with real life night vision, that is blinded by bright or hot objects and doesn't work in many circumstances, even without an active enemy attempting to prevent its use!

The more realistic approach would be that there would absolutely be countermeasures against it, just like chaff and ECM were created for other means of attack. And for gameplay reasons, why bother adding a specific module just for that, when you could save time and effort and merge them?

Seems like a no-brainer to me!

Try to look on flash light having NV on in suit. Pure counter measure. If ship's works different, then it's just not powerful enough light source.

 

[varonica]

The example I referenced was fairly convincing, I'd say.

No, that's not how it works, you simply don't get to claim you represent the majority when your only evidence that you represent the majority is your claim that you represent the majority, and you don't get to claim you are right in a technical matter without actually having some evidence that you are right regardless of the position being argued.

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

Night vision isn't thermal imagining, it magnifies the light already available, typically from stars and moonlight and such. The temperature would have no effect on this.

What’s The Difference between Thermal Imaging and Night Vision?

Night vision devices have the same drawbacks that daylight and lowlight TV cameras do: they need enough light, and enough contrast to create usable images. Thermal imagers, on the other hand, see clearly day and night, while creating their own contrast. Without a doubt, thermal cameras are the...

www.flir.com

 

[DemiserofD]

Try to look on flash light having NV on in suit. Pure counter measure. If ship's works different, then it's just not powerful enough light source.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Regardless, I stand by my statement that Night Vision should have a practical countermeasure, preventing the easy attack of otherwise stealthy targets.

No, that's not how it works, you simply don't get to claim you represent the majority when your only evidence that you represent the majority is your claim that you represent the majority, and you don't get to claim you are right in a technical matter without actually having some evidence that you are right regardless of the position being argued.

Well, I made the claim that players typically support changes that benefit gamplay over realism, and provided an example.

If you have a counterexample - for example, a case where players campaigned for gameplay to be sacrificed for the sake of realism - I'd be happy to reconsider my standpoint.

 

[DemiserofD]

Night vision isn't thermal imagining, it magnifies the light already available, typically from stars and moonlight and such. The temperature would have no effect on this.

What’s The Difference between Thermal Imaging and Night Vision?

Night vision devices have the same drawbacks that daylight and lowlight TV cameras do: they need enough light, and enough contrast to create usable images. Thermal imagers, on the other hand, see clearly day and night, while creating their own contrast. Without a doubt, thermal cameras are the...

www.flir.com

In real life, perhaps; ingame, however, it quite clearly highlights objects, which means it must be able to identify and differentiate between them, which means any form of sensor disruption should also work on night vision.