Peregrina Aristocrats

[Screemonster]

It doesn't matter, very few players really care. You might as well complain about the number of systems Eurybia Blue Mafia expand into.

Or Party of Yoru, for that matter. Ol' Zack Nemo's also out in a relative backwater and requires people to get allied with a particular faction in order to unlock him.

Aisling's Angels seem to deal with that particular disruption in their backyard just fine.

 

[Rubbernuke]

So those who created this thread, without thinking about the interests of other players, can change the rules of the game, and we have no right to disagree and offer an option that would suit everyone?

It's just a fairy tale of disrespect for the same players, in the same universe.

You're really trying to boil it down to not giving anything about some group's interests, we were given permissions and they can do what they want. That's really not caring about people. It all looks cool from the outside, as long as it's not about you and your particular factions, groups, friends, gameplay, entertainment.

The players identified an issue, FD were under no obligation to fix it but did, given the millions of systems in the BGS. That suggests your solution to containing PA was based on a problem in the BGS, which is now 'fixed'.

I've been on the end of many a PMF and massive group so don't lecture me about 'muh gameplay' being taken away.

 

[AntonyVern]

Or Party of Yoru, for that matter. Ol' Zack Nemo's also out in a relative backwater and requires people to get allied with a particular faction in order to unlock him.

Aisling's Angels seem to deal with that particular disruption in their backyard just fine.

The argument "those and those live and are fine with it" is a bad argument, really.

Why not solve this and many similar problems adequately and with respect for everyone?

 

[Shnyrik]

It's your responsibility to maintain the permit acquisition while nurturing your faction.

Maybe there is some misunderstanding. Try to read: we did take the responsibility and we have already dealt with that problem acting strictly by the game's rules. You didn't like the solution, so you started whining here and finally got the god mode from the devs. Now you ask us to deal with all that according to the rules.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

This whole situation demonstrates once again what the players really are.

Our group has never interfered with anyone else's play before, we have never interfered with anyone else's boundaries, we have never interfered with cooperation and communication, and we have always tried to find a solution that is convenient for ALL.

Have proposed such a variant and this time, defend it, with respect for all here and their points of view.

In response, only spitting, intolerance, selfishness and a wonderful double standard.

We've never complained, we have dealt with that problem acting strictly by the game's rules. Others here did start whining and got the god mode from the devs. But breaking the game rules is okay because they are good and want to win always, no matter the cost, and all the rest can... suffer.

No, we just understand how this game works. What is being said is just the reality of the situation. It's not that players are selfish, they're just not interested and are only after the permit. FDev have decided that permit has to remain accessible, so unfortunately you're stuck with the solution. These players aren't against you, they just want a permit.

Whatever solution you have proposed isn't in FDevs interests to implement.

I'd also suggest caution in suggesting that players are deliberately trying to target your systems as you'd be asking FDev to intervene in a player conflict. Believe me when I say that even bringing that topic to this forum doesn't go down well.

 

[Shnyrik]

No, we just understand how this game works.

Yep, that is exactly how this game works: you may play as hard as you can by the rules, but your opponent may always moan here on the forums and will get his victory by a little bit of game breaking cheating so that he could stop moaning and be happy again. Perfect.

 

[SwingKing]

Maybe there is some misunderstanding. Try to read: we did take the responsibility and we have already dealt with that problem acting strictly by the game's rules. You didn't like the solution, so you started whining here and finally got the god mode from the devs. Now you ask us to deal with all that according to the rules.

Marvelous! "All animals are equal, but some are more equal."

 

[AntonyVern]

No, we just understand how this game works. What is being said is just the reality of the situation. It's not that players are selfish, they're just not interested and are only after the permit. FDev have decided that permit has to remain accessible, so unfortunately you're stuck with the solution. These players aren't against you, they just want a permit.

Whatever solution you have proposed isn't in FDevs interests to implement.

I'd also suggest caution in suggesting that players are deliberately trying to target your systems as you'd be asking FDev to intervene in a player conflict. Believe me when I say that even bringing that topic to this forum doesn't go down well.

It sounds like a conversation between a mute and a blind man.

We're saying that there's no problem with the fact that a permit has been issued, the problem is the effect of the PA megaship on BGS in the region and the fact that we, as players like others, are simply not taken into account.

Don't try to make us out to be some inadequate militant incomprehensionists. We have offered a small correction to a frankly incorrect solution to the problem, we have offered everyone here a solution to this and future problems, taking into account the opinions and interests of all parties.

We have remained committed to the respect of those around us from start to finish.

Why is it that everyone reads what they want, but not what is actually written.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It doesn't matter, very few players really care. You might as well complain about the number of systems Eurybia Blue Mafia expand into.

There was a thread a few months back doing just that about Alioth Independents, who have managed to get into top 25 for presence and top 40 for control pretty much solely from passing traffic, for a permit you need to get once per account.

It does show just how large "the general player base" is in comparison to any particular group, even a large one.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Yep, that is exactly how this game works: you may play as hard as you can by the rules, but your opponent may always moan here on the forums and will get his victory by a little bit of game breaking cheating so that he could stop moaning and be happy again. Perfect.

FDev never deliberately intervene in player conflicts, so this must purely have done for the benefit of the playerbase as a whole. It may not suit your relatively small group, but that's how it works sometimes. Again, I'd suggest moving away from this particular line as you'll just get the thread locked by one of the mods.

 

[Shnyrik]

It may not suit your relatively small group, but that's how it works sometimes.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others, that's how it works.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others, that's how it works.

Needs of the many... would be more appropriate.

 

[Screemonster]

The argument "those and those live and are fine with it" is a bad argument, really.

Why not solve this and many similar problems adequately and with respect for everyone?

My parents live in a little suburb in the country next to a farm. It's pretty peaceful.

Their neighbours moved there and complained about being able to hear pheasants in the woods. My parents are fine with the pheasants.

Do you think they should solve it by shooting all the pheasants? Or do you think that people that don't like to hear pheasants shouldn't move out to the countryside next to a wood full of pheasants?

The whole bubble of inhabited systems and you chose to place your PMF next to a permit-locked system. Then complain about the permit-issuing faction gaining influence from people that want the permit.

 

[SwingKing]

FDev never deliberately intervene in player conflicts, so this must purely have done for the benefit of the playerbase as a whole. It may not suit your relatively small group, but that's how it works sometimes. Again, I'd suggest moving away from this particular line as you'll just get the thread locked by one of the mods.

This is not a player conflict. This is a game-mechanics problem.
Please dont mess this things.

There is no You vs Me, or You vs CEC

 

[AntonyVern]

My parents live in a little suburb in the country next to a farm. It's pretty peaceful.

Their neighbours moved there and complained about being able to hear pheasants in the woods. My parents are fine with the pheasants.

Do you think they should solve it by shooting all the pheasants? Or do you think that people that don't like to hear pheasants shouldn't move out to the countryside next to a wood full of pheasants?

The whole bubble of inhabited systems and you chose to place your PMF next to a permit-locked system. Then complain about the permit-issuing faction gaining influence from people that want the permit.

I am sorry for your problem, but alas, it is irrelevant and cannot act as an argument. You are merely trying to extrapolate and draw your real-life case to a specific game-technical problem.

Alas, it doesn't work that way.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Yep, that is exactly how this game works: you may play as hard as you can by the rules, but your opponent may always moan here on the forums and will get his victory by a little bit of game breaking cheating so that he could stop moaning and be happy again. Perfect.

This is not a player conflict. This is a game-mechanics problem.
Please dont mess this things.

There is no You vs Me, or You vs CEC

Which is it?

 

[AntonyVern]

FDev never deliberately intervene in player conflicts, so this must purely have done for the benefit of the playerbase as a whole. It may not suit your relatively small group, but that's how it works sometimes. Again, I'd suggest moving away from this particular line as you'll just get the thread locked by one of the mods.

I'm sorry, your message looks more like a threat of the species: "either you agree with us, or we'll call an administrator, pull the situation by the ears, and make you get blocked". I'm sorry if this is that kind of action.

The problem we mentioned, as well as the solution to it, is purely game technical, it's not solely up to us or you. We are trying to offer a solution to this and many similar problems so that ALL players can enjoy the process, and not waste their personal time proving their position to nones in chat. It's not just stupid, it's also pointless.

Our group, represented by me and the guys approached the issue with an exceptionally sane side, we proposed an option that would suit everyone.

Instead of trivial human support, you stand like cows on a bridge and do not allow to solve everything adequately. This is simple stubbornness. There is no problem between you and me, but there is a problem exclusively in the game-technical environment.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I'm sorry, your message looks more like a threat of the species: "either you agree with us, or we'll call an administrator, pull the situation by the ears, and make you get blocked". I'm sorry if this is that kind of action.

The problem we mentioned, as well as the solution to it, is purely game technical, it's not solely up to us or you. We are trying to offer a solution to this and many similar problems so that ALL players can enjoy the process, and not waste their personal time proving their position to nones in chat. It's not just stupid, it's also pointless.

Our group, represented by me and the guys approached the issue with an exceptionally sane side, we proposed an option that would suit everyone.

Instead of trivial human support, you stand like cows on a bridge and do not allow to solve everything adequately. This is simple stubbornness. There is no problem between you and me, but there is a problem exclusively in the game-technical environment.

I'm trying to get you to steering the conversation away from this being a player conflict, which is where it was going by the tone if some posts. If I wanted to be awkward I'd have just reported the post.

What is being said here is that your issue is random traffic, same as the rest of us deal with. You just have more of it because of the area you've expanded into and have decided to stay in. FDev are unlikely to change it as they've already fixed it (in their eyes) and have other things to look at. That is unfortunately how things work in the game. While you may think your option suits everyone, it obviously doesn't suit FDev or that is what you would have had implemented. Honestly, at this point I'm just going to wish you luck as you're going to be on a very long road with this. Maybe with Odyssey fixed this will get looked at again.

Although, really I'd think yourself lucky you haven't moved into an area where you were unfavourable to a local powerplay faction.

 

[AntonyVern]

I'm trying to get you to steering the conversation away from this being a player conflict, which is where it was going by the tone if some posts. If I wanted to be awkward I'd have just reported the post.

What is being said here is that your issue is random traffic, same as the rest of us deal with. You just have more of it because of the area you've expanded into and have decided to stay in. FDev are unlikely to change it as they've already fixed it (in their eyes) and have other things to look at. That is unfortunately how things work in the game. While you may think your option suits everyone, it obviously doesn't suit FDev or that is what you would have had implemented. Honestly, at this point I'm just going to wish you luck as you're going to be on a very long road with this. Maybe with Odyssey fixed this will get looked at again.

Although, really I'd think yourself lucky you haven't moved into an area where you were unfavourable to a local powerplay faction.

Yup, typical "deaf-to-blind" conversation, how unfortunate.

Unfortunately, not only have you not tried to get to the bottom of our appeal and arguments, moreover, you openly do not want an imputed dialogue and a specific solution to the problem, and you also resorted to complaining to admins, although there is not even a basis for this, since our answers and appeal are constructed in an extremely adequate way.

It is sad to see this kind of conversation and lack of understanding of the simple fact that we are all equal, there is no more equal. And that the solution proposed by us in the appeal on page three of this thread is sane and takes into account the interests of everyone around, not stifling the rights of anyone.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

This is not a player conflict. This is a game-mechanics problem.

I'm not sure it's possible to separate the two within the BGS, especially when considering the actions of players not deliberately aiming to cause particular BGS outcomes.

Everything Frontier does can change the BGS balance - the combat rebalance caused permanent swings to stable influence levels in hundreds of systems, the Odyssey release caused a rapid collapse in Anarchy controlling factions - not because Frontier were aiming for that outcome, but because the incentives set up caused player aggregate behaviour to change. The distorting effects of permit-offering factions have been around a very long while, but of course the desirability of particular permits can change regularly.

And of course in Elite Dangerous lore there is a conspiracy who manipulates pilots into taking actions on their behalf by manipulating incentives, so they can justify anything that way...


I don't think satisfactory answers are ever going to be practical in general - there's always going to be conflicts of interest between the plot, organised BGS groups, disorganised players just trying to play the game, etc.


In this particular case though, I think the proposed solution of making Peregrina Aristocrats a non-influence faction on their megaship is a good one:
- it allows new players to continue to receive the permit, which is good because that shouldn't be something you can stop purely by BGS operation.
- it therefore allows those players, if they choose to and can overcome CEC efforts, to push PA into expansion from their home system again. I'm all in favour of BGS operation having major consequences, but they should never be irreversible.
- it recognises the substantial efforts made by CEC to crush PA in a way more interesting than "sorry, you can't do that": I do respect that Frontier generally doesn't go for that as an answer in most systems, and therefore allows BGS events to contribute to the overall narrative
- making crushing the permit-giver back to their home system a pre-requisite both explains why it's not been done for Alioth Independents et al, but also gives player groups with a nearby permit system at least a theoretical route to success, potentially leading to interesting BGS campaigns and player-generated content in future.