Holding Umbrage with Huayangosaurus Being Resold

[dailyvagabond]

Wow, this is still rolling huh? Listen, we have a disagreement on this. It's certainly odd that they chose that particular dinosaur for the deluxe pack, few disagree with that. But you think it's greed, while others think it's just a strange choice. That's fine. Disagreements happen. But at this point, isn't it fair to say both sides have had it out long enough? Either you're going to get the game or you're not (and I suspect we all are, else we wouldn't be here), so can we just move on to being excited?

For the record, it's unlikely the dinosaur is a "simple port". At the very least, all the textures and normals for all the returning dinosaurs have been redone. That's work, regardless of whether the mesh has changed. As I posted in an earlier reply, it seems to me work on the mesh has been done as well, but even assuming I'm wrong about that... Work has been done. Is it really greed if work was put in? Or is it a simple exchange of labor for cash? (Yes, I'm aware modders do this work as well and ask nothing for it. Just because my brother-in-law can fix my car for free doesn't mean auto mechanics don't deserve to be paid for their work.) By the way, asset reuse is not only common in the industry, it's downright logical. Why redo the mesh from scratch when the original mesh is already exceptional?

If you're that upset about it, skip Deluxe. If you want the other four dinosaurs, pretend you're paying 20% more for each of those four. Just... Do yourself a favor and let this go. We're four days to launch. You deserve to spend that time being excited for the game, not poisoning your free time with anger over such a small thing.

 

[Mjmannella]

Either you're going to get the game or you're not (and I suspect we all are, else we wouldn't be here), so can we just move on to being excited?

We're four days to launch. You deserve to spend that time being excited for the game,

I'd rather have my question answered than be blindly excited.

For the record, it's unlikely the dinosaur is a "simple port". At the very least, all the textures and normals for all the returning dinosaurs have been redone. That's work, regardless of whether the mesh has changed. As I posted in an earlier reply, it seems to me work on the mesh has been done as well, but even assuming I'm wrong about that... Work has been done.

It's also work not unique to Huayangosaurus, and therefore not a justification for the premium pricing.

Is it really greed if work was put in? Or is it a simple exchange of labor for cash? (Yes, I'm aware modders do this work as well and ask nothing for it. Just because my brother-in-law can fix my car for free doesn't mean auto mechanics don't deserve to be paid for their work.) By the way, asset reuse is not only common in the industry, it's downright logical. Why redo the mesh from scratch when the original mesh is already exceptional?

I'm not against the number on the pricetag, and I'm especially not against asset reuse. Huayangosaurus' model is still nice, but why are we paying premium for it when there's no worthwhile changes done to make it "deluxe"?

If you're that upset about it, skip Deluxe.

This continues to be thrown around in spite of me having since addressed why it's not a end-all-be-all response. Please read the thread on why I don't think this is satisfactory.

 

[dailyvagabond]

I'd rather have my question answered than be blindly excited.

It's also work not unique to Huayangosaurus, and therefore not a justification for the premium pricing.

I'm not against the number on the pricetag, and I'm especially not against asset reuse. Huayangosaurus' model is still nice, but why are we paying premium for it when there's no worthwhile changes done to make it "deluxe"?

This continues to be thrown around in spite of me having since addressed why it's not a end-all-be-all response. Please read the thread on why I don't think this is satisfactory.

Right, but none of the work done for deluxe items is unique to that item. Many games sell weapon skins as deluxe content, for instance, despite the same work being done for weapons in the base game. Including this particular dino in the deluxe pack was, again, an odd choice. But it was simply a choice, odd or no. To my knowledge, most people don't even like huayangosaurus as much as I do, so I don't really understand the greed angle. It's not like they threw something movie-iconic like stegosaurus or gallimimus in as deluxe.

As far as why you don't think it's satisfactory, I understand that. All I'm saying is that at this point, your only recourse is to not buy Deluxe. There's no way they're changing what's in the pack four days from launch, so at this stage all you can really do is decide whether you're going to get the pack or skip it on principle.

 

[Mjmannella]

Right, but none of the work done for deluxe items is unique to that item. Many games sell weapon skins as deluxe content, for instance, despite the same work being done for weapons in the base game

New dinosaur species are still new entities separate from others. Even skins are new entities because as exist as separate content from other skins. Megalosaurus and Pachyrhinosaurus have newly made models that aren't just being re-sold from 3 years ago. They might have similar animations and behaviours, but they're still new at the end of the day.

But it was simply a choice, odd or no. To my knowledge, most people don't even like huayangosaurus as much as I do, so I don't really understand the greed angle.

This isn't about personal preference, this is about calling a spade a spade and wanting the rational behind the decision answered.

It's not like they threw something movie-iconic like stegosaurus or gallimimus in as deluxe.

If I get stabbed with 1 sword and someone else gets stabbed with 2 swords, that doesn't me my condition is somehow better. It's still a bad thing that's happened.

As far as why you don't think it's satisfactory, I understand that. All I'm saying is that at this point, your only recourse is to not buy Deluxe. There's no way they're changing what's in the pack four days from launch, so at this stage all you can really do is decide whether you're going to get the pack or skip it on principle.

I can also bring up what's happening to public social media to bring attention to the issues. I'm raising awareness of a practice that I find discomforting. If they decide to re-sell the DLC hybrids, I can only hope that there's been enough criticism towards Huayangosaurus being re-sold so the developers do more than just port the old models.

 

[dailyvagabond]

If I get stabbed with 1 sword and someone else gets stabbed with 2 swords, that doesn't me my condition is somehow better. It's still a bad thing that's happened.

Except my point wasn't that it would be "worse" if it were stego. My point was to counter your suggestion that this decision seems to be driven purely by corporate greed. If it were driven by greed, would it not make more sense to gate a more iconic and widely beloved species?

Anyway, you do you I suppose. Just a shame that the rest of us are riding a high of excitement right now while you seem to be mired in anger over such a small oddity announced more than two months ago. Far be it from me to tell people where to direct their righteous indignation, but I sincerely hope this doesn't color your enjoyment of the actual game.

 

[Gondrasia]

Whilst it may seem insignificant, I do find it odd and rather concerning that Huayangosaurus is the only natural dinosaur from the previous game to not be in the base game for JWE2.

Granted, the size has changed so its more accurate to its prehistoric counterpart but, based on screenshots and gameplay, the accurate size change has been applied to pretty much all of the dinosaurs. So it’s hardly a good reason for it to be a Deluxe Edition exclusive, so why is it?

 

[Oxythief]

Whilst it may seem insignificant, I do find it odd and rather concerning that Huayangosaurus is the only natural dinosaur from the previous game to not be in the base game for JWE2.

Granted, the size has changed so its more accurate to its prehistoric counterpart but, based on screenshots and gameplay, the accurate size change has been applied to pretty much all of the dinosaurs. So it’s hardly a good reason for it to be a Deluxe Edition exclusive, so why is it?

So a new one could be in the base

 

[Mjmannella]

There is no reason why old content should be sold at a premium so new content can be in the base. New content by proxy of being new has more reason to be sold at an extra price. This has since been argued so I don't know why you've brought it up again.

 

[Oxythief]

There is no reason why old content should be sold at a premium so new content can be in the base. New content by proxy of being new has more reason to be sold at an extra price. This has since been argued so I don't know why you've brought it up again.

Ehh, I feel that it should. This is ultimately the impasse we reach. I'm fine with a little of my DLC money paying for those less able or new to the franchise to have a novel Dino in base. (My understanding of your stance) - You would prefer all novel Dinos in DLC to make it feel more premium.

Question, how would you feel if there were only 4 dinos in DLC and Hung was in the base without a price change?

My understanding of your concern is that you worry that this means we will have to pay for all the old Dinos that are not already in the base game. To which I say yes. We will have to pay for the work of the devs, even if that work is just remastering a Dino from the last game. It still takes time and resources (not to mention the whole can of worms that is the indirect cost we pay for with DLC that I'm ultimately not interested in rehashing with you)

So ultimately yes you have your right to state your opinion on the situation, and I likewise have the right to say I think it is wrong every time.

So that is why I brought my stance up again because you have done nothing to dissuade me of it.

 

[Mjmannella]

Question, how would you feel if there were only 4 dinos in DLC and Hung was in the base without a price change?

I'd be in favour of the decision. Unlike with JWE2, there's more than just creatures in this deluxe edition which would alleviate the omission of a dinosaur.

My understanding of your concern is that you worry that this means we will have to pay for all the old Dinos that are not already in the base game. To which I say yes. We will have to pay for the work of the devs, even if that work is just remastering a Dino from the last game. It still takes time and resources (not to mention the whole can of worms that is the indirect cost we pay for with DLC that I'm ultimately not interested in rehashing with you)

And we do that with the base game's price. Huayangosaurus has had the same changes done to it and yet we have to pay more to get it in spite of every other returning dinosaur getting in the base game.

 

[Oxythief]

And we do that with the base game's price. Huayangosaurus has had the same changes done to it and yet we have to pay more to get it in spite of every other returning dinosaur getting in the base game.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree.

 

[dailyvagabond]

I think we can finally bury the notion of no work being done. The shoulder spikes have been remeshed, she's not as "hunchbacked", legs are remeshed, neck shape is different, head shape is entirely different... I think it's safe to say old huayangosaurus had a reimagining.

 

[Mjmannella]

Let's try something a bit more qualitative. Thanks to recent developments, we've been able to export the models directly to blender. Here we can see the direct mesh comparisons more objectively (though do note that I've had to take images from elsewhere because I was unable to do this work myself, I will update this if I can find something better!):

The left is the JWE1 mesh, the middle is the JWE2 model (at scale), and the right is the JWE2 model scaled up to better compare the 2 models. You may notice that the left and the right are essentially the same. What changes you presented are in the the rig and animations, not with the mesh itself.

Suffice to say, my stance of Huayangosaurus has not changed.

 

[MarcWP]

BAHAHHAAHAHAHA. Even when the model is completely different from the first game, he just ignores it, even when it has been his number 1 reason for all the hate the entire thread.

Can we please close this thread now. This guy is a troll. Complete waste of space on this forum... JESUS

 

[Mjmannella]

I’m inclined to beieve that you ignored my response. I showed a far more qualitative comaprison between Huayangosaurus between JWE1 and JWE2, which revealed the animal had no mesh edits performed.

 

[MarcWP]

I’m inclined to beieve that you ignored my response. I showed a far more qualitative comaprison between Huayangosaurus between JWE1 and JWE2, which revealed the animal had no mesh edits performed.

The 3 pictures you posted are identical. And does NOT represent the gameplay. Look at the pictures posted above directly from the games. It debunks your comparison right away. So no you didn't post a qualitative comparison. You completely ignored the in-game pictures and all the changes made to the model because it debunked your entire thread. Stop reaching so bad... It's getting more and more ridiculous at this point.

 

[Oxythief]

Let's try something a bit more qualitative. Thanks to recent developments, we've been able to export the models directly to blender. Here we can see the direct mesh comparisons more objectively (though do note that I've had to take images from elsewhere because I was unable to do this work myself, I will update this if I can find something better!):

The left is the JWE1 mesh, the middle is the JWE2 model (at scale), and the right is the JWE2 model scaled up to better compare the 2 models. You may notice that the left and the right are essentially the same. What changes you presented are in the the rig and animations, not with the mesh itself.

Any chance we could get the source files you used to make this, if it was made by someone else could you link us to the primary source. All of the images involved in this comparison are far too grainy for me to believe they are actual in-game models from the source code. In which case I'm curious to know how they were captured.

 

[dailyvagabond]

There are some pretty clear differences in these meshes, though. Yeah they're similar, but one would expect them to be. Huayangosaurus has a known skeletal structure and straying too far from it would be questionable. For interest's sake, what's the poly count for each mesh? Because the JWE1 mesh looks "grainier", even with the JWE2 mesh being upscaled, so I'm wondering if the poly count is different between them.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

There are some pretty clear differences in these meshes, though. Yeah they're similar, but one would expect them to be. Huayangosaurus has a known skeletal structure and straying too far from it would be questionable. For interest's sake, what's the poly count for each mesh? Because the JWE1 mesh looks "grainier", even with the JWE2 mesh being upscaled, so I'm wondering if the poly count is different between them.

I'm sure it is tbh

 

[dailyvagabond]

I'm sure it is tbh

Seems that way to me too. At the very least, it uses more subdivision, the shoulder spikes tell that by themselves. But honestly I don't think the changes to the base of the spikes can be chalked up to subd alone.