What Odyssey could and should have been like...

[Fizzatron]

Thank you, it's a point many seem to fail at grasping it seems. The original (entire) promise of the kickstart has not been fully relized yet.
Elite and SC both seem to just be releasing MVP features in increments. Difference being Elite is advertised as a "complete" and "working" product.

There's also the fact that SC cultists overlook the small matter that SC was promised to be full and feature complete in 2015:

Speaking generally however, it's a bit disingenuous to compare the two, Elite is more like Minecraft in the fact that it's sold 'complete' but gets updates. I know it's not a 1:1 comparison either but the fallacy that somehow Elite & Star Citizen's development are a 1:1 comparison is real too, they just both happen to be space games. There are other games that are being developed continuously and it's not an uncommon practice when developing on the scale of what games like Elite & Star Citizen are trying to achieve.

I agree that Elite's version numbers maybe could be prefixed with 0.x but at the end of the day it's just semantics for fanboys to try to make a meal out of, and it makes me laugh at the pot calling the kettle black efforts of SC players harping on that Elite doesn't have x when Start Citizen doesn't have y, well surprise surprise they both have - shock horror - completely independent development paths, meanwhile I reiterate that SC was promised full and feature complete in 2015: FDev & others have covid as a valid reason for delays and issues, what's CIG's excuse for the last < s i x > years? Just keep repeating the mantra: "it will be ready when it is ready, and I am fine with that" for the foreseeable future.

Both could be better, everything could be better, especially if some realize they're throwing stones whilst deluding themselves into believing that they're not firmly standing an glasshouse.

The reality is that Star Citizen is way more likely to fail than Elite looking at the way the two companies are run and the amount of money CIG has blown through and will continuously need moving forward to bring Star citizen to market in the form that they promised would be delivered in 2015, getting ever more FOMO & MLM like in their fundraising strategy. Of course anything could happen but it says something when you have NMS, X4, SC all trying to tell people that Elite is somehow dead and that they should go to their game instead, I see it as a backhanded acknowledgement as to which game actually sits on the throne. In some ways the detractors are right, Elite is barely getting started, it's what happens when it really does that scares them, and Odyssey was an initially fumbled, but huge step forward towards that.

edit: apparently I can't count...

 

[NoVR - What_The_X_F_Dev]

My point is that if you look at the SC video I referred to, you can see how immersive it is:

• players walking in ship interiors
• manually doing tasks like being a gunner
• it's a bigger instance as well - ie: more than three four in the crew

I'm not rivet countery enough to call foul on version numbers, with the exception that I still think Odyssey should be beta 8 rather than post launch update 8. But as you say the two development processes are polaric opposites, equivalent to top down vs bottom up, so any direct comparison of the whole process is not really possible. However, there are some features that can be like for like compared, in this case it was multicrew, or multicrew + ship interiors in star citizens case.

 

[Fizzatron]

My point is that if you look at the SC video I referred to, you can see how immersive it is:

• players walking in ship interiors
• manually doing tasks like being a gunner
• it's a bigger instance as well - ie: more than three four in the crew

I'm not rivet countery enough to call foul on version numbers, with the exception that I still think Odyssey should be beta 8 rather than post launch update 8. But as you say the two development processes are polaric opposites, equivalent to top down vs bottom up, so any direct comparison of the whole process is not really possible. However, there are some features that can be like for like compared, in this case it was multicrew, or multicrew + ship interiors in star citizens case.

And not too long ago people were continuously falling through floors... to which you may reply "but star citizen has progressed..." exactly I say back, and so has and will, Elite. SC fans are always cherry picking the things that SC has that Elite doesn't conveniently overlooking the multitude of things that Elite has that SC doesn't. CIG need to work on Star Citizen, FDev need to work on Elite, just in different ways, what's so difficult to understand? Ship interiors are planned, when's the milky way planned for SC?

 

[Juniper]

Ship interiors are planned

Sorry, can you link this please.

 

[Fizzatron]

Sorry, can you link this please.

Sorry, what game are we playing here?

 

[Juniper]

Sorry, what game are we playing here?

None, just asking you to link to your proof that ship interiors are planned. Because all I've heard from Frontier is that they are not planned, nor will they ever be. But I could be out of date on that.

 

[Fizzatron]

None, just asking you to link to your proof that ship interiors are planned. Because all I've heard from Frontier is that they are not planned, nor will they ever be. But I could be out of date on that.

More accurately, you're misinformed about that. Interiors were discussed as part of the kickstarter and FDev said they were not planned as part of the Odyssey expansion, just like they probably would have said that walking around wasn't planned as part of the Horizons expansion. It's only those who want to use it for their own ends who choose to complicate it further than that. And, as always, what's planned for Odyssey, and what isn't, is subject to change due to internal decisions.

 

[Juniper]

More accurately, you're misinformed about that. Interiors were discussed as part of the kickstarter and FDev said they were not planned as part of the Odyssey expansion, just like they probably would have said that walking around wasn't planned as part of the Horizons expansion. It's only those who want to use it for their own ends who choose to complicate it further than that. And, as always, what's planned for Odyssey, and what isn't, is subject to change due to internal decisions.

More accurately, you're spinning a hope into a promise, despite having no proof. I'm not getting into any of that and I don't care. All I was asking for was proof of your statement that "ship interiors are planned", and you can't provide any. I never mentioned past promises or the Kickstarter.

Fair enough, I'll treat the statement appropriately then.

 

[Fizzatron]

More accurately, you're spinning a hope into a promise, despite having no proof. I'm not getting into any of that and I don't care. All I was asking for was proof of your statement that "ship interiors are planned", and you can't provide any. I never mentioned past promises or the Kickstarter.

Fair enough, I'll treat the statement appropriately then.

Nah, you're projecting that which tells me you're not really interested in anything other than promoting the same misinformation I just mentioned, especially as it seems you think Kickstarter stuff is somehow irrelevant. It's there for you to see, I'm not getting into the here boy fetch crap. We'll see in the end, that's all I'm saying. It seems you are playing a game after all, even though you said you weren't. I take that for what it is too.

 

[Juniper]

Nah, you're projecting that which tells me you're not really interested in anything other than promoting the same misinformation I just mentioned, especially as it seems you think Kickstarter stuff is somehow irrelevant. It's there for you to see, I'm not getting into the here boy fetch crap. We'll see in the end, that's all I'm saying.

Mate, the only 'misinformation' here is you saying that "ship interiors are planned", as an argument about... something or other. Don't really care.

There's no "here boy fetch crap" by simply asking for proof of a statement you made. Which apparently you can't provide. I just want to make that part clear, in case any onlookers mistakenly take your statement as fact, when it's pure conjecture on your part. I mean, this is basic stuff and you trying to make an argument about something else entirely (which I'm not interested in in the slightest) is practically the definition of 'projecting'.

That is all. It would be better if you just admitted you made it up, to support whatever it is you're arguing about. Otherwise, you look a bit foolish. Ship interiors are not planned. Sorry.

 

[varonica]

It's all about ambition, and then following through with that ambition.

E: D lacks any perceptible ambition, whereas SC has probably way too much.

So creating a full scale replica of the galaxy with 400b stars, planets, moons and etc isn't ambitious, but being able to walk down a corridor in a star ship is?

 

[Rubbernuke]

My point is that if you look at the SC video I referred to, you can see how immersive it is:

• players walking in ship interiors
• manually doing tasks like being a gunner
• it's a bigger instance as well - ie: more than three four in the crew

I'm not rivet countery enough to call foul on version numbers, with the exception that I still think Odyssey should be beta 8 rather than post launch update 8. But as you say the two development processes are polaric opposites, equivalent to top down vs bottom up, so any direct comparison of the whole process is not really possible. However, there are some features that can be like for like compared, in this case it was multicrew, or multicrew + ship interiors in star citizens case.

You have a gunner in ED- just not individually. And while moving around inside a ship is fun, whats it really for?

Immersion needs to be fun in the end, and work. Instances in ED can be larger as well, since CiG have reduced the maximum per server so while crews can be bigger (well, pilot and gunners and people sat down) you are limited elsewhere.

 

[Juniper]

So creating a full scale replica of the galaxy with 400b stars, planets, moons and etc isn't ambitious, but being able to walk down a corridor in a star ship is?

Who knows, but the galaxy was built in 2014. They've steadfastly refused to add much to it since. Can you impact this galaxy in any way?

If 400bn completely empty & practically identical systems to fly to satisfies "ambition" in your book, then fair enough. Not for me to tell you otherwise.

Personally, I like to have more to do in a system, since you're only in one at a time. In that respect, in terms of adding gameplay, content, varied & fun mechanics etc, E: D falls massively short. Walking down corridors of your own ship (maybe even doing stuff on the way) would be a start.

 

[Fizzatron]

Who knows, but the galaxy was built in 2014. They've steadfastly refused to add much to it since. Can you impact this galaxy in any way?

If 400bn completely empty & practically identical systems to fly to satisfies "ambition" in your book, then fair enough. Not for me to tell you otherwise.

Personally, I like to have more to do in a system, since you're only in one at a time. In that respect, in terms of adding gameplay, content, varied & fun mechanics etc, E: D falls massively short.

Sorry mate, I haven't read that and I'm done talking to you.

 

[Fizzatron]

How did that go?

 

[varonica]

Who knows, but the galaxy was built in 2014. They've steadfastly refused to add much to it since. Can you impact this galaxy in any way?

You already know the answer to that, you've been around long enough, now you're just trolling. They created the galaxy, it's an enomrous undertaking, you want them to update it every time a new discovery is made? Oh yes, let me know when SC gets to more than a couple of stars systems, when they implement even basic things like orbital mechanics, and show me a video if all you in your multi-crewed star ship in combat with another multi-crewed star ship.

You can have all the ambition you want, I have the ambition to go to Mars....guess what?

 

[Juniper]

You already know the answer to that, you've been around long enough, now you're just trolling. They created the galaxy, it's an enomrous undertaking, you want them to update it every time a new discovery is made?

It's procedurally generated... using equations inside a computer. Really, it's all smoke and mirrors... and once you realise it's just maths and you can't actually impact it (no base building, no player-owned stations, you can't even alter the terrain on a planet), it loses its shine very quickly as a game backdrop.

I mean, you literally can't do any of these things... the system just isn't designed so you will ever be able to. It's fixed & static, forever.

Sorry, but in 2014 that might have been 'wow'. But in 2021, it's a bit crap.

Oh yes, let me know when SC gets to more than a couple of stars systems, when they implement even basic things like orbital mechanics, and show me a video if all you in your multi-crewed star ship in combat with another multi-crewed star ship.

Sure, why not. Not that I'm making much of a thing about SC either, only that they are at least trying to make a game world that is rich, varied, and the player has engagement in.

It's a matter of personal preference of course, but I'd rather have one or two systems that are huge & with lots of things to do, than billions of empty & practically identical systems (with no hope of that ever changing) with nothing to do in them. It's a game after all.

You can have all the ambition you want, I have the ambition to go to Mars....guess what?

People are actively working right now to make that dream a reality. Whether it happens quickly enough for you or I, depends on people's ambition to make it happen.

You say you have ambition to go to Mars, but I rather suspect you are one of those people who think we will never get there so there's no point in even trying.

Nice shoes, btw.

 

[varonica]

It's procedurally generated... using equations inside a computer. Really, it's all smoke and mirrors... and once you realise it's just maths and you can't actually impact it (no base building, no player-owned stations, you can't even alter the terrain on a planet), it loses its shine very quickly as a game backdrop.

Which is all pretty much rubbish right. Here's a clue, that's what all games are, just numbers inside a computer.

We already have player owned stations, what do you think Fleet Carriers are if not just mobile stations? Yes that's literally what they are.

Now that's off your chest, why do you think SC has 1 system and a couple of planets after many years of development. That's because they found out pretty quick that it really is quite a difficult think to do. Yes the galaxy is a backdrop, just like the mountains and rivers in many other games are backdrops, there are very few games where you can, in fact, alter the terrain in the game, off the top of my head I could name a couple. Most games when they say destructible environments don't mean the terrain itself, it's the crafted assets.

I have to question at this point, whey are you even here if you think it's so crap?

To claim that it's all rubbish because it's just maths in a computer isn't the "gotcha" argument you seem to think it is!

 

[varonica]

You say you have ambition to go to Mars, but I rather suspect you are one of those people who think we will never get there so there's no point in even trying.

Ah I see personal comments now, you know nothing about me, I suggest you keep your comments to yourself and stick with the subject at hand because that gets old really quickly and you could join the few players who I have found it necessary to block due to that sort of thing getting out of hand!

 

[Juniper]

Which is all pretty much rubbish right. Here's a clue, that's what all games are, just numbers inside a computer.

Sure, but the numbers have to be able to be changed to make a game. The numbers cannot change with E: D's galaxy (it's fixed and static), and that's the problem here. Sorry you don't see it.

You may as well 'play' Space Engine, but there's no game there either, for the same reasons.

Fleet Carriers are not player bases. They're all basically identical. Galactic litter, and little else IMO.

I have to question at this point, whey are you even here if you think it's so crap?

This isn't an E: D forum.