Neither were we...but you seem determined to get some kind of point across about pay to win, just carry on without us, we'll be over in the corner mumbling to ourselves until you're done
Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12
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Neither were we...but you seem determined to get some kind of point across about pay to win, just carry on without us, we'll be over in the corner mumbling to ourselves until you're done
Umm.. he literally talked about starting money.
No idea how true this is, usual disclaimer, blah blah, maybe just someone salty or thinks they are worth more than they are, yadda yadda...
So did I...in the context that buying UEC from the store is a one off punt to your starting UEC balance...and how nobody is doing it any more or will likely do it after release because it's absolutely pointless...credits are easy enough to earn with nothing more than a starter ship and 5k UEC. It's like suggesting ED players would buy Arx from the FDev store to circumvent playing the game...it's bollox. Just because backers pay for ships doesn't mean we'll resort to buying gameplay.
Some bought UEC back when we were wiped every patch...it was fashionable, even I bought some with spare store credit because nobody had any idea of earning potential any further along than a solitary 3 month period... but since 3.8 and the ability to buy ships in game with easy earned credits and not being wiped for a year and a half...nope
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So did I...in the context that buying UEC from the store is a one off punt to your starting UEC balance...and how nobody is doing it any more or will likely do it after release because it's absolutely pointless...credits are easy enough to earn with nothing more than a starter ship and 5k UEC. It's like suggesting ED players would buy Arx from the FDev store to circumvent playing the game...it's bollox. Just because backers pay for ships doesn't mean we'll resort to buying gameplay. Some bought UEC back when we were wiped every patch...it was fashionable, even I bought some with spare store credit... but since 3.8 and the ability to buy ships in game with easy earned credits...nope
Yes, i got that, but saying "nobody" is doing it is quite unbelievable. There are idiots out there who pay for aUEC from ebay.
And the fact that the mechanism exists means some people will do it, and therefore they are literally paying to win.
Ok...I'm done, have it your way
I would buy aUec off of ebay before I bought it from CIG.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
After all this time I am amazed we are still discussing this. Paying real money for game credits when credits in game can get you an advantage, of any type (in this case getting your ship faster than other non real money paying players), is pay to win. Period. There is no two ways about it. Other players expediting ships with credits achieved only in game will have those credits denied for other improvements etc.
It is of little importance for the pay to win to be such that some players may personally consider that particular advantage unimportant, or a one off. The advantage can be perfectly attractive depending on the scenario for other players. And one offs are only limited by the wallet of the buyer. For example when two players may be competing for a certain loot in an abandoned space wreck under a certain time limit for whatever reason with their preferred (and possibly expensive) ship for the task. If one of them just crashed its ship in an asteroid or got destroyed by the other player in a first round combat he may actually want to expedite ship readiness to come back quick enough to still contest the loot again etc.
This is just one hypothetical scenario but in an open sand box there will certainly be thousands of other viable scenarios where accelerating a specific ship recovery may be an advantage (battles, exploration discovery competitive areas etc). In fact in an mmo where player competitive advantages (better ships, better modules etc) are obtained essentially via time progress in the game, anything that can eliminate or accelerate that time is essentially pay to win.
Now, having said that what we can agree on is to discuss to what degree a specific event of pay to win impacts the game and other players. Some will more than others, no doubt. But all of them will still be pay to win.
It is of little importance for the pay to win to be such that some players may personally consider that particular advantage unimportant, or a one off. The advantage can be perfectly attractive depending on the scenario for other players. And one offs are only limited by the wallet of the buyer. For example when two players may be competing for a certain loot in an abandoned space wreck under a certain time limit for whatever reason with their preferred (and possibly expensive) ship for the task. If one of them just crashed its ship in an asteroid or got destroyed by the other player in a first round combat he may actually want to expedite ship readiness to come back quick enough to still contest the loot again etc.
This is just one hypothetical scenario but in an open sand box there will certainly be thousands of other viable scenarios where accelerating a specific ship recovery may be an advantage (battles, exploration discovery competitive areas etc). In fact in an mmo where player competitive advantages (better ships, better modules etc) are obtained essentially via time progress in the game, anything that can eliminate or accelerate that time is essentially pay to win.
Now, having said that what we can agree on is to discuss to what degree a specific event of pay to win impacts the game and other players. Some will more than others
, no doubt. But all of them will still be pay to win.
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Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
That argument has always been a bit of a red herring though. The times of considering the "win" as literally a clear cut victory probably was forgotten when games evolved from 2 teams arena based, 3 round matches. Honestly surprised we are still discussing this.
Paying does not need to automatically confer a guarantee for victory. Skill can trump paid advantages but that more skilled player will obtain his victory at a cost probably a bit higher than if his opponent had not "paid to win". That has knock on effects in the skilled player progress, be it a bit of extra time lost or extra repair costs or whatever. It still is "pay to win".
As I said we can agree to discuss to what degree a specific event of pay to win impacts the game and other players. Some will more than others, no doubt. But all of them will still be pay to win.
Paying does not need to automatically confer a guarantee for victory. Skill can trump paid advantages but that more skilled player will obtain his victory at a cost probably a bit higher than if his opponent had not "paid to win". That has knock on effects in the skilled player progress, be it a bit of extra time lost or extra repair costs or whatever. It still is "pay to win".
As I said we can agree to discuss to what degree a specific event of pay to win impacts the game and other players. Some will more than others
, no doubt. But all of them will still be pay to win.
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After all this time I am amazed we are still discussing this. Paying real money for game credits when credits in game can get you an advantage, of any type (in this case getting your ship faster than other non real money paying players), is pay to win. Period. There is no two ways about it. Other players expediting ships with credits achieved only in game will have those credits denied for other improvements etc.
It is of little importance for the pay to win to be such that some players may personally consider that particular advantage unimportant, or a one off. The advantage can be perfectly attractive depending on the scenario for other players. And one offs are only limited by the wallet of the buyer. For example when two players may be competing for a certain loot in an abandoned space wreck under a certain time limit for whatever reason with their preferred (and possibly expensive) ship for the task. If one of them just crashed its ship in an asteroid or got destroyed by the other player in a first round combat he may actually want to expedite ship readiness to come back quick enough to still contest the loot again etc.
This is just one hypothetical scenario but in an open sand box there will certainly be thousands of other viable scenarios where accelerating a specific ship recovery may be an advantage (battles, exploration discovery competitive areas etc). In fact in an mmo where player competitive advantages (better ships, better modules etc) are obtained essentially via time progress in the game, anything that can eliminate or accelerate that time is essentially pay to win.
Now, having said that what we can agree on is to discuss to what degree a specific event of pay to win impacts the game and other players. Some will more than others
Its a bit like with GTA Online. Ever since they added Cayo Perico you can make around 1.5 million per hour doing that heist (i'm closer to 1.5 hours, but i'm not the quickest). That's megabucks compared to what was possible before. But Rockstar still sell shark cards despite how easy you can now make money, and you can bet people are still buying them. GTA Online is a clear pay to win game because of this.
You do know pay to win doesn't exclusively mean you will win or that there is even anything to actually win per se. Perhaps its a badly coined term, but most people understand what is being talked about, unless it doesn't fit their agenda in some way. Pay to advance, pay to progress, those might be better terms, but generally speaking, whatever the term, most people seem to consider them undeseriable in games because not only does it mean people with more disposable income have an advantage against those who don't, but also because it encourages the beancounters to look for more ways to exploit the willingness of people to open their wallets to progress, which usually is detrimental to the experience of those who are not.
EvE is an interesting example, but as i understood, what you actually are buying is subscription time. You don't actually get anything in game. Please correct me if i'm wrong.
I'm sure most of it is fought for vanity because it doesnt look so good when the ones boasting with their leet skills turn out to conveniently bolster their prowess with cash.
Post-release ? We're safe for the next few decades then.
You get accelerated skill progression (or at some point, that was the case, didnt check that game for quite a while..), which saves a ton of grind.
I also forgot to mention one obvious point - the accelerated claim cost is less or about the same as the cost of refueling bigger ships (such as the Caterpillar or Hercules). Once you fly these big boys, running costs (as mentioned above by Mole) become higher than anything you can get with store-bought credits (also some medium ships like the MSR, true gas guzzler). I'm quite sure that if some day the fabled Idris becomes flyable, just keeping that thing fueled up will be comparable to running today's aircraft carriers.
Again, the accelerated claim costs are about like refueling costs. If you cannot afford them with your in-game money, you cannot afford flying the ships at all to start with, making that issue purely hypothetical.
But what do they win exactly, said compared to buying accelerated skills in EvE, or just paying for better "meta" ships in SC so they can blow up anyone who didnt pay as much ? Here they "win" the right to claim a destroyed ship in 1/10th the time (so 30 minutes become 3 minutes, IIRC that's the ratio or about there, the initial time depends on ship size of course), which added to the wait times due to being killed, having to re-equip, take public transports, etc. is absolutely nothing. Practically if that happens to me, I just go claim the ship first, then go shopping for my lost equipment, when I go back it's there and no need to pay for accelerated (which I can afford, since I can afford refuelling my own ship !). And oh yes, lost equipment costs a LOT more than the accelerated claim if that matters too, and you cannot get it back in any other way than go and buy it again.
Honestly, SC is the laughing stock of gaming for quite a lot of good reasons, no need to try and strawman dubious ones in addition.
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Ah, now that i didn't know. Then yup, pay 2 win.