The European Fallow Deer's Zoopedia Range is Extremely Misleading

[Mjmannella]

I just noticed while browsing through the European fallow deer's zoopedia that there is some very misleading information on the map. To start I'll show what they did right.

Both the general information and the fun facts correctly note that the European fallow deer is native to Turkey, and was likely introduced elsewhere in the continent. However, the range map completely fails to represent this fact.

This is quite a shocking disregard for accuracy, as it pretty much exclusively shows its introduced range (note how there's zero colouring in Turkey, where the animal is actually native!). I strongly encourage the developers to revise this range map to be more accurate to the animal's native range!

 

[avietar]

I think they distinguished the European (common) fallow deer from the Persian fallow deer, which would be seen in Turkey etc...?

 

[Mjmannella]

Persian fallow deer were historically found in Mesopotamia, the Levant, and Anatolia. Their mordern-day range solely composes of Iran and Israel.

 

[DrBurrito]

I think they distinguished the European (common) fallow deer from the Persian fallow deer, which would be seen in Turkey etc...?

The European (common) fallow deer is also native to Asia Minor/Anatolia (Turkey), and maybe the Balkans and parts of Italy, which is still a matter of debate (whether they are native to the Balkans and Italy or not). Historically, the ranges of the two species overlapped in Anatolia, but these days both species are struggling in their native ranges. Very few remained in Turkey by the second half of the 20th century, 7 animals I believe, but thanks to conservation efforts, their numbers have been increasing exponentially, but an IUCN update is necessary to reflect the change, and appropriately the Dama dama profile on the IUCN Red List is now marked with a "Needs updating" annotation.

The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species

Established in 1964, the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species has evolved to become the world’s most comprehensive information source on the global conservation status of animal, fungi and plant species.

www.iucnredlist.org

Notice the tiny speck near Antalya, that was what their distribution had shrunk to before the conservation efforts began in the late 60's and they are now being reintroduced elsewhere in the country, which is probably why there's an update on the way.

Until that update, not much can be made about the in-game distribution map I'm afraid, since the game does not include and specify areas where a species is extirpated (locally extinct). However, there's still 4 localities missing on the Zoopedia map - Rhodes, the tiny area near Antalya I mentioned earlier, and two more in the Balkans. Marked them on the in-game map, so it is easier for the team to locate and compare with the current IUCN map.

Once the IUCN map itself is updated, we can return to this thread once again for further corrections.

 

[Mjmannella]

I would still at least removed the introduced range from the Zoopedia map, as that's completely contradictory to the range maps for every other species (which is why moose don't have a New Zealand range on their Zoopedia map)

 

[DrBurrito]

I would still at least removed the introduced range from the Zoopedia map, as that's completely contradictory to the range maps for every other species (which is why moose don't have a New Zealand range on their Zoopedia map)

You are right and it was one of the possibilities I was talking about on this thread, before the pack was released.

The fact that they didn't include post-1900 introductions (e.g. Oceania, Americas, South Africa) tells me the inclusion of Western/Northern/Central Europe by Frontier was an intentional decision, perhaps due to the pack being named "Europe Pack".

 

[DrBurrito]

Just realized I forgot to mark a 5th location, the population in Cyprus. Here's the updated version:

 

[Firestar97]

since the game does not include and specify areas where a species is extirpated (locally extinct)

I'd love it if they would let us look at 3 different Maps in the Zoopedia. The normal one, one which shows where a Animal was introduced and one that shows where it is extinct

 

[NZFanatic]

I would still at least removed the introduced range from the Zoopedia map, as that's completely contradictory to the range maps for every other species (which is why moose don't have a New Zealand range on their Zoopedia map)

There is a huge difference.

The European fallow deer is a naturalised species. While it was introduced, it's been around for so long that it forms an important part of the local ecosystem. The moose in New Zealand is not naturalised (and probably doesn't actually exist - there hasn't been a moose sighting in New Zealand for over one hundred years, with the only recent hint being some hair samples found in 2002 (but who knows how old they actually were)). A better comparison would be the fallow deer in New Zealand, where it's invasive, not naturalised.

 

[Mjmannella]

I'm rather skeptical of the whole idea of "naturalised" species. I believe that a species is either native (arriving on its own terms) or introduced (arriving with human influence). I don't think any amount of time can pass where an introduced species somehow stops being introduced (and therefore the unwanted consequences of its arrival stop impairing the ecosystem it colonizes).

 

[NZFanatic]

I'm rather skeptical of the whole idea of "naturalised" species.

Well, good thing your opinion doesn't trump established science.

 

[avietar]

Well, good thing your opinion doesn't trump established science.

Maybe you haven't realized so I'll point it out, because if no one ever says something how can anyone learn, but sometimes your way of communicating is rather judgemental and unkind, which is not very pleasant and can rub people entirely the wrong way.

I've noticed it more often but figured since no other reactions are posted yet since this reply, I'd mention it.

 

[yoav_r]

I'm rather skeptical of the whole idea of "naturalised" species. I believe that a species is either native (arriving on its own terms) or introduced (arriving with human influence). I don't think any amount of time can pass where an introduced species somehow stops being introduced (and therefore the unwanted consequences of its arrival stop impairing the ecosystem it colonizes).

While I agree, this carries two problems:

A. The fallow deer is a unique case with some estimating that it is actually native to whole of latin Europe.

B. Going by this logic than the Dingo is also invasive (and it did a lot more harm to australian fauna than the fallow deer to european fauna). Should the Dingo not be in the game?

 

[Mjmannella]

B. Going by this logic than the Dingo is also invasive (and it did a lot more harm to australian fauna than the fallow deer to european fauna). Should the Dingo not be in the game?

Well yeah. The dingo was a terrible pick in terms of representing the wildlife most distinct to Oceania. They could've done a wombat (from which they had 3 options), a Tasmanian devil, one of the many possum species, or even a perentie. It honestly seemed much more like trying to ensure a carnivoran mandate in that regard...

 

[yoav_r]

Well yeah. The dingo was a terrible pick in terms of representing the wildlife most distinct to Oceania. They could've done a wombat (from which they had 3 options), a Tasmanian devil, one of the many possum species, or even a perentie. It honestly seemed much more like trying to ensure a carnivoran mandate in that regard...

In a 4 animals pack I'd much rather have another marsupial, but the dingo is the main carnivore of asutralia, we can't ignore that, even though it's originally invasive. And side note, according to wikipedia the fallow deer might have been native to the entire mediterranean, and it is debated whether or not the romans introduced it west. The only places which are 100% introductions are northern europe, and even that is with the caveat that the fallow deer was indeed native to all of europe before the last ice age.

 

[Cocolori]

There is always going to be issues about where people draw the line re. invasive, naturalised, introduced species because a lot of it is unrecorded history. We know humans were moving themselves around the planet and crossing bodies of water since the neolithic and throughout the whole of human history we've been shaping the world to our needs and providing both deliberate and accidental means for species of plants and animals to spread. We also have the added issue now of climate change and how our current models of conservation of species in protected areas is not going to be able to cope with changing conditions. If we move a species 200 miles north because that is where their climate envelope now sits how long before we can say they are naturalised? Will they never be considered a natural part of the ecosystem their? Even if we've moved the whole ecosystem itself?

It's like species, sub-species etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but given there is no black and white answers, no clear lines that we can draw in our classifications I would say evryone should approach the topic with an open mind and accept that there may be no right answer and that is ok. We're humans, we like to classify things but science is not a monolith and even where consensus exists it is a living, changing, shifting thing. Embrace the uncertainty - it's more fun that way.

P.S. That isn't to say you can't debate any of this - as long as you are having fun doing it

 

[yoav_r]

Guys let's keep things civil. We are only discussing the distribution of an ungulate.

 

[Mjmannella]

And side note, according to wikipedia the fallow deer might have been native to the entire mediterranean, and it is debated whether or not the romans introduced it west. The only places which are 100% introductions are northern europe, and even that is with the caveat that the fallow deer was indeed native to all of europe before the last ice age.

Ironically Italy and Greece are essentially the only non-Turkey countries on the map without a full distribution. Even with a larger range they could've easily gotten away with, the devs didn't do that.

 

[DanHR]

Wasn't these deer almost extinct in Turkey except for a certain National Park?
Also arent these deers introduced by humans in both Americans and Oceania?

 

[DrBurrito]

While @NZFanatic is correct that there is a big difference between invasive and naturalized species, I can also understand @Mjmannella's skepticism. Our understanding of ecology is not the same as it was fifty years ago, and will not be the same fifty years down the line. Our current level of knowledge on a species or its effect on the environment in its introduced range may be lacking to draw the necessary conclusions. Therefore, there is no guarantee a species currently considered naturalized will not be classified as invasive in the future. That said, European fallow deer was native to most of Europe before the last glacial period, and the Mediterranean basin acted as a refuge during the last glacial maximum. Therefore the species cannot be considered entirely alien to the region. For this reason, including the rest of the continent in the distribution map of the European fallow deer in the game is not gravely wrong. Even if the Phoenicians and Romans didn't introduce them back into other parts of the continent, they may or may not have reclaimed their former range, depending on hunting pressure and ecological factors.

I have also observed that, based on my accuracy feedback from two years ago, where I had differentiated between native and naturalized ranges by including both possibilities when making suggestions, Frontier had preferred to go with the option to also include tags for plant assets for continents where they have been naturalized. This, I believe, is a clear sign that they rather include naturalized populations than leave them out. What we can do as a community moving forward is we can identify cases where a plant or animal is missing a certain continent tag (or parts of its range on the Zoopedia map, in the case of animals) representative of a naturalized population, and make suggestions on the forum or report on the issue tracker to make sure consistency is being met.