To Solo Play Players: If You Could Disable PVP, Would You Play in Open Play Mode Instead?

Juniper

Juniper
Ian Doncaster said:
Sure, that would be ideal.

All it needs is to define what "PvP" is in a sufficiently watertight way that:
- someone with the flag off can't be killed, damaged, or easily caused to be killed or damaged by someone with either flag setting
- someone with the flag on can't be killed, damaged, or easily caused to be killed or damaged by someone with the flag off
- the PvE experience either on your own or with other cooperating players continues to work as before largely regardless of your flag settings
- it isn't done by the trivial "glorified Solo" method of preventing flag-off players from instancing with anyone else (including other flag-off players) except in supercruise or concourses

It was already impossible to do that in Horizons - and Odyssey adds several more unresolvable situations. It just isn't something that Elite Dangerous was ever designed to be able to have.
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I would beg to differ. When a player receives damage, the game knows how it happened & precisely who caused it.

All that would need to happen is that if the "No PvP" flag is on, and the damage came from another player, the game would nullify that damage.

What would probably need balancing is toggling the flag to prevent exploits... I suggested a several hour timeout way back earlier in the thread before the setting takes effect. I'm sure there are other or additional ways that could be done though. A rule that says you can't change it or turn it off if you are pledged to a power, for example.
 

Bigmaec

Bigmaec
St0rmFury said:
But I thought gankers only want to see ships go boom, why should it matter if it's an npc or human controlling the ship? Unless...
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Obviously it's player ships.
Juniper said:
I would beg to differ. When a player receives damage, the game knows how it happened & precisely who caused it.

All that would need to happen is that if the "No PvP" flag is on, and the damage came from another player, the game would nullify that damage.

What would probably need balancing is toggling the flag to prevent exploits... I suggested a several hour timeout way back earlier in the thread before the setting takes effect. I'm sure there are other or additional ways that could be done though. A rule that says you can't change it or turn it off if you are pledged to a power, for example.
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What happens if I have my PvP flag off and I ram a player who has his PvP flag on?
 

Juniper

Juniper
Bigmaec said:
What happens if I have my PvP flag off and I ram a player who has his PvP flag on?
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As I said, the damage & by whom is recorded & logged.

If you have your "No PvP" flag off, then you'll receive damage. If it's on, you wouldn't.

So when your guns don't work, and you think "I know, I'll ram him" - you're the only one who will get hurt.
 

Ian Doncaster

Ian Doncaster
Juniper said:
I would beg to differ. When a player receives damage, the game knows how it happened & precisely who caused it.

All that would need to happen is that if the "No PvP" flag is on, and the damage came from another player, the game would nullify that damage.
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Yes, yes, blocking direct damage is easy. Now deal with indirect damage where it's not technically another player doing the damage to you but you still end up dead. (Yes, Frontier could say "that's not PvP", and we end up in the same situation we are now but with a useless flag and a ton of bug reports)

For example:
- you're sitting on a landing pad at an Odyssey base in your ship. Another player is standing in a Dominator suit on top of your ship. You both have PvP flags turned off.
- you launch and thrust upwards ... what happens next?

Clearly, you don't cause any direct damage to the player standing on your ship. The flag prevents that.

If you can take off anyway - causing momentum transfer but not damage - you can drag them a few kilometres into the air and the fall (which is entirely PvE damage, you might even be out of the instance by the time they land) will kill them.
If you can't take off because momentum transfer is also blocked, then eventually the trespass timer will run out and the settlement defences will blow up your ship, killing you entirely through the application of PvE damage.



Similar example with Horizons:
- you're sitting on a landing pad inside a rotating station in a T-9 or Cutter or something else which really needs a lot of space to get through the slot
- two players in Sidewinders are flying around in the entrance
- everyone has PvP flag off

If you can sweep them aside, then you can sweep them into the station wall and cause PvE damage to them.
If you can't sweep them aside, they can pin you down in a trespass zone as above.
If you pass through each other, enjoy your career as ablative armour for the PvE station guns when one of them hides inside you and shoots the station.
 

Ian Doncaster

Ian Doncaster
Ettanin said:
Which is why a separate Open PvE mode is a better idea - avoids such headaches.
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Not instancing people with separate flag settings together would be necessary, but an "Open PvE" mode would still be vulnerable to the situations above (and many others) where two players with flag off can nevertheless cause each other to incur damage from NPCs and the environment.
 

Ettanin

E
Ian Doncaster said:
Not instancing people with separate flag settings together would be necessary, but an "Open PvE" mode would still be vulnerable to the situations above (and many others) where two players with flag off can nevertheless cause each other to incur damage from NPCs and the environment.
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Not quite. This mode can have separate anti-griefing alterations for which "immersion" could kill cooperation, such as no collision damage nor collision effects (simply clipping through) and damage not meant for you cannot be stricken by NPCs to you either (if the station wants to kill a loiterer and you happen to fly past, you won't be struck by the station, the shot simply passes through).

Cease the excuses. It's possible with simple concessions.
 

Ian Doncaster

Ian Doncaster
Ettanin said:
Not quite. This mode can have separate anti-griefing alterations for which "immersion" could kill cooperation, such as no collision damage nor collision effects (simply clipping through) and damage not meant for you cannot be stricken by NPCs to you either (if the station wants to kill a loiterer and you happen to fly past, you won't be struck by the station, the shot simply passes through).

Cease the excuses. It's possible with simple concessions.
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Yes, that would work - if all players clip through each other at all times, and no-one takes damage from NPCs who aren't aiming specifically at them, you could have a PvE mode.

Personally I think it fails the "PvE still works normally" test - you'd have to switch to "PvP" mode to rescue someone's SRV from a pit by lifting it up on your ship, for example; there'd be some ridiculous screenshots and glitches as you get to see the unmodelled insides of ships; hiding behind other players because every NPC weapon now has "smart rounds" would be a cheap PvE combat tactic - but maybe enough people would find that sort of thing an acceptable trade-off for it to be worth implementing.

If that's specifically what you want - with those caveats - then I'd not have a problem with Frontier implementing it in those terms.
 

Tiili

Tiili
Ettanin said:
Not quite. This mode can have separate anti-griefing alterations for which "immersion" could kill cooperation, such as no collision damage nor collision effects (simply clipping through) and damage not meant for you cannot be stricken by NPCs to you either (if the station wants to kill a loiterer and you happen to fly past, you won't be struck by the station, the shot simply passes through).

Cease the excuses. It's possible with simple concessions.
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What would happen if 2 players sandwich an NPC between them at the station entrance?

Players would obviously pass through each other, but the NPC would not.
I would assume it simply explodes getting glitched between the 2 ships passing through each other. Would players take damage from this collision as it's a player rammed NPC colliding with another players ship?

Who would be blamed for the death and blown up by the station, assuming nobody was speeding at all?
+would the rammed NPC drop materials and loot?
 

Tiili

Tiili
Ettanin said:
You would still be repelled by the reactionary force of the NPC from that collision. Crafting such a scenario takes needless effort in itself obviously.
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But a smaller NPC ship would not have the mass to effect larger ships at all, that's why I'm wondering what could happen in such a situation.

It's actually not rare at all to have two players ramming an NPC between them in the station entrances, happens all the time, but right now both players and the NPC simply get stuck till one of the players moves away.
 

Ettanin

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Tiili said:
But a smaller NPC ship would not have the mass to effect larger ships at all, that's why I'm wondering what could happen in such a situation.
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It wouldn't even have the sufficient shields to withstand the consequences of such a collision. NPC ships aren't engineered, mind you. Even then, the effect of such sandwiching would be quick.

As such, using NPCs to achieve that is a minor nuisance and most players should know by now that it's best to wait until such chaos is cleared instead of bullrushing right into it. Besides, if the blocking player stays in the corridor, it's them who will get shot. and NPCs don't spawn constantly.
 
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