General Entry level ships are too cheap (Early game impressions).

So i've been playing (as a brand new player to ED, but familiar with Elite and it's history etc) for a couple of days now, probably 20 hours worth in all (active gaming, not just sat in dock while i fix dinner or look after the cats etc).

I never really flew my sidewinder (it currently sits unloved in dock at Dalton Gateway ( in system LHS 3447)). I did use it to fly in system to Dalton so i could pick up my kickstarter reward Eagle.
I expanded the Eagle's cargo capacity as much as possible and found that in-system Dalton to Lawson Orbital food/bio-waste run route. I did about a dozen of those then bought an Adder.
I expanded the Adder for cargo as much as possible and did about another dozen runs to be able to buy a Cobra.
I expanded that Cobra for cargo and did about another dozen runs to be able to buy a Lakon Type 6.
With the Lakon i can make enough money on that trade route to think about aiming for an Asp in short order (i got a Dolphin in the interim to try it out as a cargo/multipurpose ship).

So without using cheats or even the offline tools to maximise profits and money making i was able to use a standard old-fashioned Elite play style to more or less blast through the starting tier of ship choices. My initial impression is that most of these ships need to be at least double the cost (probably more) to balance better the progression flow of ship ownership from game start, to start to bring it back to that level of progression (feeling of reward) we had in the earlier games of Elite.

This is why i like to be able to mod games ;)

Edit: This would be my starting tweaks (based on data from corolis.io), ships in order of cheapest:

Sidewinder:
current= 31,000 tweak= leave it as is, it is given free by the game.

Eagle:
current= 43,800 tweak= 86,000

Hauler:
current= 51,700 tweak= 110,000

Adder:
current= 86,810 tweak= 170,000

Imperial Eagle:
current= 109,830 tweak= 210,00

Viper mk III:
current=141,930 tweak=280,000

Cobra mk III:
current= 348,720 tweak= 680,000

Viper mk IV:
current= 436,930 tweak= 820,000

Diamondback Scout:
current= 563,330 tweak= 1,100,000

Cobra mk IV:
current= 746,660 tweak= 1,200,000

Just as an initial test run as this will interfere less with the rest of the current ship prices, but as this is just a basic 2x current price it might take more than that, and then looking further up the line at the prices of the other ships and adjusting upwards (always upwards!).
 
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So i've been playing (as a brand new player to ED, but familiar with Elite and it's history etc) for a couple of days now, probably 20 hours worth in all (active gaming, not just sat in dock while i fix dinner or look after the cats etc).

I never really flew my sidewinder (it currently sits unloved in dock at Dalton Gateway ( in system LHS 3447). I did use it to fly in system to Dalton so i could pick up my kickstarter reward Eagle.
I expanded the Eagle's cargo capacity as much as possible and found that in-system Dalton to Lawson Orbital food/bio-waste run route. I did about a dozen of those then bought an Adder.
I expanded the Adder for cargo as much as possible and did about another dozen runs to be able to buy a Cobra.
I expanded that Cobra for cargo and did about another dozen runs to be able to buy a Lakon Type 6.
With the Lakon i can make enough money on that trade route to think about aiming for an Asp in short order (i got a Dolphin in the interim to try it out as a cargo/multipurpose ship).

So without using cheats or even the offline tools to maximise profits and money making i was able to use a standard old-fashioned Elite play style to more or less blast through the starting tier of ship choices. My initial impression is that most of these ships need to be at least double the cost (probably more) to balance better the progression flow of ship ownership from game start, to start to bring it back to that level of progression (feeling of reward) we had in the earlier games of Elite.

This is why i like to be able to mod games ;)

The barrier to progression in ED isn't credits its engineering grind.

One of the few times in Elite where credits become a factor is when you want 5 billion+ of them to buy and outfit a Fleet Carrier.
 
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When money is too easy to come by, that makes the ships too cheap ;)

I do agree the costs of refueling and repair also need to be more expensive (especially repair on the hull). We are talking game balance here in relation to the economics in the game, i have quite a long history with this in games (modding TES games etc) and this is just my initial thoughts on my current game progress; it felt too easy, too quick in terms of buying the early game ships i mentioned.

It was harder (more rewarding) in Elite and FFE (by default/unmodded).
 
The barrier to progression in ED isn't credits its engineering grind.

One of the times in Elite where credits become a factor is when you want 5 billion+ of them to buy and outfit a Fleet Carrier.
Would it be good money sink to be able to buy pre-engineered ships (like pre-engineered Odyssey weapons)? From other players?
 
The barrier to progression in ED isn't credits its engineering grind.

One of the times in Elite where credits become a factor is when you want 5 billion+ of them to buy and outfit a Fleet Carrier.

Yes i think i've followed that part of the game development to understand that (not experienced it directly yet), but that is later gameplay elements.

I was expressing a concern over the new start progression stages, and idea's on how to improve that flow. It might be that with a general 'stretching out' over ones ability to buy a new ship that slower early game progress (on ship ownership/having to spend more etc) would bleed into the later game stages where you would better feel that money should indeed be a valuable commodity, to better sit alongside engineering and other later gameplay aspects?
 
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When money is too easy to come by, that makes the ships too cheap ;)

I do agree the costs of refueling and repair also need to be more expensive (especially repair on the hull). We are talking game balance here in relation to the economics in the game, i have quite a long history with this in games (modding TES games etc) and this is just my initial thoughts on my current game progress; it felt too easy, too quick in terms of buying the early game ships i mentioned.

It was harder (more rewarding) in Elite and FFE (by default/unmodded).

Modding is not allowed in Frontier games - at least not in the online games.
So take it as it is or... well... TES games are still there. 😇
 
Its not that money is too easy to come, its that money are nothing to spend for.
Like I said, if ships had more metrics beyond initial cost along with fewer credits it might have made a difference.

These days 1 mission = 1 small ship, and that the old money pit (new armour) is less than a few hours work.

In a money sparse game you would be compelled to use smaller ships / cheaper ones because thats all you can afford. Crime would be the route to fast credits but could go wrong easily, while traders would build slowly but steadily and hire the DDF era NPC wingmates (a credit sink for protection). Ships like FDLs, superpower ships etc would be expensive to run because they are so advanced rather than being the LOLZ shuttles they are now.
 
In a money sparse game you would be compelled to use smaller ships / cheaper ones because thats all you can afford. Crime would be the route to fast credits but could go wrong easily, while traders would build slowly but steadily and hire the DDF era NPC wingmates (a credit sink for protection). Ships like FDLs, superpower ships etc would be expensive to run because they are so advanced rather than being the LOLZ shuttles they are now.

As a general rule in game economies, you make 'money sparse' by increasing the 'cost of living', in this case the cost of buying (and maintaining) ships. Ships are the lynch-pin of a game like Elite, they should matter (cost) more.
 
Still, both my alts took it slowly (Steam and Epic alts) and for their (approximate) first 2 months they played without engineers - taking it slowly.
Made quite an interesting journey and offered me a chance to try Adder, Type 6, Federal Dropship - ships that i simply skipped when i first played on my XB account
 
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As a general rule in game economies, you make 'money sparse' by increasing the 'cost of living', in this case the cost of buying (and maintaining) ships.
Its why I suggested ships have more than one metric of ownership.

Docking fees, manufacturer (i.e. Lakon- universal and cheap to repair, ZP FdL super-yacht like in cost to repair) and fuel costs could do that. Early on these were factors but no longer and everything is 'flat' making small ships, as well as ones like the T-7 useless.

Engineering could also do this- the higher the wacky changes the more expensive it is to keep 100%.
 
Nearly every game I have ever played you start off with nothing and end up with a huge amount, so much you don't care how much it is. Which is one of the reasons many games have seasons / leagues to make you start from zero again.

I still make use of the 'early' ships - mostly dbx but also regularly eagles and cobras. And Adders and Vultures for Apex/FS. Having more money doesn't stop you using them too :)

Anyway, I see we're resurrecting the eternal 'everything now!' vs 'why is this not a survival game?' debate


you-may-continue-proceed.gif
 
I'm sure if i did something glamorous (other than in-system food/bio-waste runs) i could have progressed my ships even quicker (less than 20 hours). The basic method i used was not the most efficient, but the balance of that early game stage felt too quick to progress in terms of ship ownership.
 
Still, both my alts took it slowly (Steam and Epic alts) and for their (approximate) first 2 months they played without engineers - taking it slowly.
Made quite an interesting journey and offered me a change to try Adder, Type 6, Federal Dropship - ships that i simply skipped when i first played on my XB account
That's true. But often we don't have this opportunity being restricted to have one character per account. Especially having Horizons on other platforms, and only single Odyssey. Not sure if it is better thing than worse, but would be nice to have an ability to role-play - rescue your main character from an escape pod at distant world planet surface - things like this.
 
so what you expecting from easy cheap ships,this game runs in real time so not everybody has 12 hrs a day to up there cr's to get bigger ships. & the sidewinder only carries 2t
 
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It was harder (more rewarding) in Elite and FFE (by default/unmodded).
Not really.

The original Elite you could - playing optimally - buy all the equipment you needed with the profits of a dozen safe runs near the starter systems (Ensoreus-Isinor). People often didn't, because no internet, but you could make 1000 credits/run once you had the (cheap) Large Cargo Bay, and a dozen of those would get you pretty much fully-equipped.

FE2/FFE had the Sol-Barnards loop which could again get you out of the Eagle/Saker pretty quickly, in perfect safety, and then accelerated incredibly quickly once you'd upgraded to an Adder. With profits exceeding 1000 credits/tonne in both directions if you used the bulletin board, and even the Panther only costing a few million credits, you could again be in the ship of your choice pretty quickly.

Elite Dangerous certainly isn't difficult if you know what you're doing either, but it certainly takes a lot longer - with optimal play! - to get to the "has everything" stage in ED than in any of its predecessors.
 
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