General / Off-Topic The Covid vaccine must be mandatory ?

[Stigbob]

Since two years the governments, the mainstream media and the self named "fact checkers" try to decline any valid data, even those collected by official sources as the Robert Koch Institute or the Center of Desease Control. They want to continue what they begun. At all cost.

Conspiracy theories about EM weapons, 5G, altered DNA, communist and satanic interference are not valid data they are a scam.

The people who originate this rubbish make money from clicks, ads, their online prepper stores, speaking appearances and books sales. Disinformation is an industry. They are fine with you dying because you believed them there are plenty of other rubes out there.

 

[Sunyavadin]

Conspiracy theories about EM weapons, 5G, altered DNA, communist and satanic interference are not valid data they are a scam.

I do wonder how many Long Covid sufferers are chalking it up to "Havana Syndrome" rather than accept the reality of the virus...

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

I do wonder how many Long Covid sufferers are chalking it up to "Havana Syndrome" rather than accept the reality of the virus...

I’m not sure the Havana syndrome is the best example

Havana Syndrome could be caused by pulsed energy devices – US expert report

Concealable devices with ‘modest energy requirements’ which could emit pulsed electromagnetic energy and ultrasound exist

www.theguardian.com

And I learnt a new word the other day - Nocebo.
Sort of like the opposite of placebo, where instead of making you better, your belief makes you ill!

 

[Sunyavadin]

I’m not sure the Havana syndrome is the best example

Like, when we know a load of people refuse to accept reality and insist instead on believing in conspiracy theories, even as science continually debunks their wild fantasies, and as they're literally dying in hospital - I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that there's a good chance those surviving the initial illness they don't believe exists will chalk their resulting long term symptoms up to something that's also been repeatedly debunked by scientists.

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

Like, when we know a load of people refuse to accept reality and insist instead on believing in conspiracy theories, even as science continually debunks their wild fantasies, and as they're literally dying in hospital - I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that there's a good chance those surviving the initial illness they don't believe exists will chalk their resulting long term symptoms up to something that's also been repeatedly debunked by scientists.

I don’t dispute that at all, just wondering your source for the Havana syndrome nocebo.

 

[Sunyavadin]

I don’t dispute that at all, just wondering your source for the Havana syndrome nocebo.

(So this is a divergence, and I won't be responding to further inquiry on it to keep the thread on topic, but you asked for my thoughts.)

There's just too much weight of evidence against the speculative ideas about it, like how the "mystery sound" a bunch of sufferers claimed to have constantly heard prior to developing symptoms has been identified by entomologists as common short-tailed crickets, and when played back to them they consistently agree that's what they heard, or how physicists don't see any of the other telltale signs they'd expect if something operating on the purported principles was being deployed. Or how medical experts tend to agree the aetiology of the outbreaks seems to match up to just a bug going around the office, something which overactive pattern-seeking behaviour in the minds of people in already paranoid professions is likely to inflate. I would NOT be surprised to learn someone in the initial bunch of cases had perhaps read one too many Jack Ryan novels when younger and it influenced his career path.

I don't doubt they got ill from identifiable biological sources, and I'm the first to look into debunking claims of mass psychogenic illness, as it all too often leads to patients with serious medical conditions being misdiagnosed by psychologists and in some cases dying due to not receiving treatment in time, but in this case a narrative quickly emerged within an insular community mythologising perceived connections between people getting sick, which led to people who had heard the stories attributing whatever was in fact medically wrong with them, from colds to autoimmune issues to whatever, to this mystery cause, and it stuck because it was a compelling story to explain everything through a single conspiracy, rather than a diverse bunch of simple factors like people being overworked in a high stress environment and expected to show up to the office even if sick, and getting other people sick too.

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

(So this is a divergence, and I won't be responding to further inquiry on it to keep the thread on topic, but you asked for my thoughts.)

There's just too much weight of evidence against the speculative ideas about it, like how the "mystery sound" a bunch of sufferers claimed to have constantly heard prior to developing symptoms has been identified by entomologists as common short-tailed crickets, and when played back to them they consistently agree that's what they heard, or how physicists don't see any of the other telltale signs they'd expect if something operating on the purported principles was being deployed. Or how medical experts tend to agree the aetiology of the outbreaks seems to match up to just a bug going around the office, something which overactive pattern-seeking behaviour in the minds of people in already paranoid professions is likely to inflate. I would NOT be surprised to learn someone in the initial bunch of cases had perhaps read one too many Jack Ryan novels when younger and it influenced his career path.

I don't doubt they got ill from identifiable biological sources, and I'm the first to look into debunking claims of mass psychogenic illness, as it all too often leads to patients with serious medical conditions being misdiagnosed by psychologists and in some cases dying due to not receiving treatment in time, but in this case a narrative quickly emerged within an insular community mythologising perceived connections between people getting sick, which led to people who had heard the stories attributing whatever was in fact medically wrong with them, from colds to autoimmune issues to whatever, to this mystery cause, and it stuck because it was a compelling story to explain everything through a single conspiracy, rather than a diverse bunch of simple factors like people being overworked in a high stress environment and expected to show up to the office even if sick, and getting other people sick too.

Thanks for the reply and fair enough!
I find it interesting because I can well believe there are weapons to do this, but I find myself looking at my own biases in forming an opinion as to the cause.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

US authorizes new antibody drug to fight omicron

U.S. health regulators have authorized a new antibody drug that targets the omicron variant. The announcement Friday is a key step in restocking the nation's supply of drugs that are effective against the latest COVID-19 variant.

apnews.com

Cool, let's hope we can spell it...

 

[Northpin]

Havana syndrome is a nasty thing. Certain things happened to certain people.
I wouldn't put it on the same level with any other conspiracy theory.

 

[Sunyavadin]

US authorizes new antibody drug to fight omicron

U.S. health regulators have authorized a new antibody drug that targets the omicron variant. The announcement Friday is a key step in restocking the nation's supply of drugs that are effective against the latest COVID-19 variant.

apnews.com

Cool, let's hope we can spell it...

Monoclonal antibodies are named by someone throwing darts into a game of scrabble, I swear.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Some unwelcome heart news is making the rounds. And it's not about Valentine's day.

Long-term cardiovascular outcomes of COVID-19 - Nature Medicine

Individuals with COVID-19 are at increased long-term risk for a wide range of cardiovascular disorders, even for individuals who were not hospitalized during the acute phase of the infection.

www.nature.com

Heart-disease risk soars after COVID — even with a mild case​

Massive study shows a long-term, substantial rise in risk of cardiovascular disease, including heart attack and stroke, after a SARS-CoV-2 infection.

The "heart-disease" term used in the study also included things like strokes, lung clots, and other conditions involving blood vessels. The heart itself showed contractile failure, abnormal electrical behaviour, ischaemic disease - same as the general population's leading killer diseases, but 50-70% more commonly. Heart muscle inflammation was also substantially increased over the year of observation.

The population ( VA study in older mostly white males, based in St. Louis) was followed for a year, finding

stark increases in 20 cardiovascular problems over the year after infection

The bad news applied equally to young and old, smokers and non smokers.** However severe Covid 19 disease was a stronger predictor of trouble (unsurprisingly) than mild cases generally seen in vaccinated people. If you went to ICU, worse again.

Because severe disease increased the risk of complications much more than mild disease, Ardehali wrote, “it is important that those who are not vaccinated get their vaccine immediately”.

^ Cardiologist writing in to Nature.
Because of immune system evasion and repeated infection risk, even if you had Covid 19 before, this new data is substantial evidence for getting immunized.

You know all those "unknown long term effects" of vaccines that people worried over? They should have been looking at the virus itself. This isn't unknown, or theoretical anymore, it's already happened, already observed, already documented, the cases counted, the graphs plotted and the answer is in. At least for older white males, the studied cohort. There wasn't any mention of erectile dysfunction in this study. However, let's point out that that is a marker condition for exactly the sort of diseases listed, all increased, but as nobody dies of ED, well it's not looked at here.

Post Covid 19 survivors( likely going to be all of us sooner or later) should concentrate efforts to avoid these diseases, using diet, exercise and good surveillance from their doctors.

**

Spoiler: Why Young and Old alike?

This was not covered in this study. But there's good evidence being amassed that the reason for this is a surge in senescent cell population following immune system activation of M1 macrophages, a rise in CD38 levels, depletion of NAD+, and concomittent mitochondrial dysfunction. This literally causes biological ageing of the cardiovascular system, even in young people. The biologically younger you are to begin with, the less the impact, and the less severe the disease is.

QED: the connection to ageing is why mild disease occurs in the first place in young people. The young who unexpectedly get severe disease may have a faster rate of biological ageing, invisible to the eye. According to the Geroscience Hypothesis.

 

[Morbad]

You know all those "unknown long term effects" of vaccines that people worried over? They should have been looking at the virus itself.

This should have been obvious from well before these vaccines were available.

Rational people looked at the choice between a highly-infectious novel coronavirus, causing a potentially serious, equally novel, disease and vaccines based on three decades of mRNA research with negligible potential for serious adverse reactions, delivered via a mechanism that was already in use in other approved drugs...and decided the latter was clearly the lower risk.

Irrational people aren't going to be swayed by proof, or history, and those without foresight rarely have much in the way of hindsight.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

This should have been obvious from well before these vaccines were available.

it was you who presented the ICU data showing the 6 month 8:1 death rates, so at least one of us knew for sure this was coming on the basis of evidence.

Now we have the pathology.

 

[Necronaught]

What is all the hate on Ivermectin? It's harmless and very useful. If people want to take it for flu let them. I find it suspicious that the US government is actively stopping people from getting the tablets resorting to people getting the veterinary paste which is hard to get the right dose on.

When the Godfather of MRNA gene therapy technology Bobby Malone (he holds the first five patents) warns you against something you should listen to him.

Can anyone explain this to me? If my immune system is stopping me from getting sick with covid (I am around it at work every day) I test negative regularly. Yes, I work in a huge healthcare facility with 5 residential buildings and nearly 100 service users, and even more staff. We get people working agency from all over the place. So we get regular cases, yet I have only tested positive once, am unvaxxed, and have never presented symptoms.

Why would I need a vax? Surely if my immune system is protecting me then it is protecting others. Isn't that how immunity works. Why would I risk a so-called rare adverse reaction from an experimental shot? It's on license until 2023 as experimental by the way.

 

[Northpin]

Why would I need a vax? Surely if my immune system is protecting me then it is protecting others. Isn't that how immunity works. Why would I risk a so-called rare adverse reaction from an experimental shot? It's on license until 2023 as experimental by the way.

Because society cannot really deal with exceptions.
You might be the best racer driver in the world. But you'd still need a driving license to drive a normal car on a public road

 

[Morbad]

What is all the hate on Ivermectin? It's harmless and very useful. If people want to take it for flu let them. I find it suspicious that the US government is actively stopping people from getting the tablets resorting to people getting the veterinary paste which is hard to get the right dose on.

No one is hating on ivermectin, just the fools that use it to try to prevent or treat COVID. There is no compelling evidence it can do this, but it can poison people if dosed incorrectly, and even when dosed properly under the direction of a medical professional ivermectin is far more likely to produce dangerous side effects than any approved SARS-CoV-2 vaccine, and the latter actually work.

More importantly, abusing antiparasitics promotes drug resistant parasites, reducing their effectiveness when they are actually needed. Excess demand also drives up costs and creates shortages for legitimate uses. There is nothing remotely suspicious about those charged with protecting public health addressing such clear public health issues as drug supply and resistance.

When the Godfather of MRNA gene therapy technology Bobby Malone (he holds the first five patents) warns you against something you should listen to him.

Not if he contradicts the medical and scientific consensus of those who have more current and relevant expertise.

Can anyone explain this to me? If my immune system is stopping me from getting sick with covid (I am around it at work every day) I test negative regularly. Yes, I work in a huge healthcare facility with 5 residential buildings and nearly 100 service users, and even more staff. We get people working agency from all over the place. So we get regular cases, yet I have only tested positive once, am unvaxxed, and have never presented symptoms.

Why would I need a vax? Surely if my immune system is protecting me then it is protecting others. Isn't that how immunity works. Why would I risk a so-called rare adverse reaction from an experimental shot? It's on license until 2023 as experimental by the way.

You may well be significantly resistant to SARS-CoV-2. The less often you become infected, and the less severe your symptoms, the less likely you are to pass it on. However, you could still have been contagious during an asymptomatic infection. It's also been well established that vaccination significantly bolsters resistance, even as a supplement to innate or naturally acquired immunity.

Since there is zero rational reason to avoid vaccination and it would be another layer of protection for those you come into contact with, it's utterly ridiculous that you are allowed anywhere near patients without being vaccinated, no matter what other precautions are in place. Unfortunately, there are plenty of places where both public and private health providers are legally forbidden from taking common sense steps to protect their patients/clients. Political posturing has resulted in leaders and legislatures mandating so many hypocritical and inconsistent exemptions to vaccination requirements that almost anyone can avoid vaccination, even in settings (such as healthcare facilities) where doing so is a clear threat to others.

 

[Imo]

What is all the hate on Ivermectin?

Many governments including those in the European Union made a big deal with the pharma industry regarding the vaccines. This is all about money for one side and power and control for the other. The pharma companies requested the US court not to publish any information about the new vaccines before 55 years from now (!) past by. Fortunately the court declined and forced them to continously publish any known information about this vaccines.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

The bad news applied equally to young and old, smokers and non smokers.

Where is this claim coming from? As you point out directly above, the test cohort is comprised of old, mostly white males. I can't see the figure detailing the cohorts as that's behind a paywall, but the author's even acknowledge this as a limitation of the study in the discussion section, so where is "young and old alike" coming from?

Unfortunately, there are plenty of places where both public and private health providers are legally forbidden from taking common sense steps to protect their patients/clients.

Those damn pesky legal rights and protections getting in the way again. Won't someone please thing of the police states.

 

[Morbad]

Those damn pesky legal rights and protections getting in the way again.

The fundamental mission of any health care facility is to provide quality care for their patients, with the implicit goals of protecting their employees and the wider community from health threats that may arise from concentrating ill people in one place. All of these are compromised by not being able to require vaccinations.

Being forced to retain an employee that is a threat to other employees, clients, and patients is undermining the rights of the many, to live as disease free as practical, to pander to the inane phobias and paranoid delusions of the few. Being vaccinated in order to work in a medical facility or where one would be in significant contact with others is no different than being required to wash one's hands, wear PPE, be tested frequently, or simply be competent at one's job.

If one wants quality care, they either wouldn't be able to find it, or couldn't afford it (due either to massive fines being priced into care in private facilities that either ignored the law, or the burden of having to retain excess labor), in an area where such legal 'protections' were enforced.

If one is trying to provide quality care--which perforce requires all reasonable steps to prevent the transmission of communicable disease be taken--these laws would be an immense hurdle. One cannot place unvaccinated employees in close contact with each other, or allow them to come into contact with patients, while still claiming to provide quality care. Since these employees cannot be required to get vaccinated, one has to hope that enough are vaccinated to do anything that needs to be done in person, enough surplus revenue to afford to hire more than one needs, or enough surplus revenue to dump the ones that aren't worth retaining despite the fines that will be levied, plus cover the fees of any requisite lawyers.

Won't someone please thing of the police states.

We have governments that are willing to force the retention of employees unsuited to the tasks they've been contracted for, for arbitrary political reasons, under the direction of partisan executives that (often thanks to heavily gerrymandered legislatures and widespread disenfranchisement) can rule almost by decree. Some of these governments are using social engineering efforts--like bounties or undermining the quality of education--to enforce their will and retain control. Essentially all of them are waging propaganda campaigns that heavily feature misinformation, actively impose economic controls contrary to the exercise of free markets, and retain the implicit right to use force to back their edicts.

These governments sound like they are well on their way to becoming police states, and they appear to have you in their corner. You're advocating for the legal right to be free from a harmless and transient inconvenience, at the cost of the health or even lives of others; or to simply refuse to provide proof of vaccination (whether one is vaccinated or not) in the hope that it is more expensive to be fired than to be paid to not show up. I cannot comprehend how you think this is rational, or anything other than a serious burden on the freedom of people in these jurisdictions.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Antivaxers are a shrinking demographic.
We should be nice to them. They may not have long to live at 170% the death rate for heart disease in men, in the USA.