Another trope, it's disrespectful of my time, and I consider to anyone else's too, to sincerely respond to this sort of thing. I'm a Kickstarter backer dude, played Elite on C64, Amiga & Frontier on Amiga too. Maybe it's you who's new?
A mile wide and an inch deep...
- Thread starter Stealthie
- Start date
Good for you, so am I. By now you should know how FD roll then and how they blow hot / cold when it comes to fleshing things out.
Ok, then I will point you back to what I wrote initially in regards to the finite amount of resources and the decisions that are taken as a result.
The problem with PP is that it motivates hard grind. Not because it should but because you have to do that if you want success. This is not what the pvp-oriented PP player wants to do though. Normal PVE that a PVE player would do is in a healthier spot than what a PP-motivated person gravitates towards. Solo is the eternal thorn in PP's side. Where once upon a time I wanted Solo gone for that, no longer. Elite: Dangerous as it exists is a confounded machine.
Again you are just exaggerating for effect here. Not only is PP not the only opportunity for meaningful PvP, PvP in Powerplay isn't particularly meaningful either; it's more effective to just kill the NPCs (same issue in both cases).
I don't think your desire for more complex/varied missions has anything to do with depth, you've just played a lot and have seen it all. Naturally I accept things could be better, they can always be better no matter how complex they are and imo missions have plenty enough variety for most players.
It ever so slightly boggles my mind that they didn’t see that from the get-go though. It is almost like they comprise a bunch of supremely specialised people and no central and generalised oversight. A planning meeting would go:
“Players want RPG progression elements in the game like crafting.”
“I found this really cool smartphone casino game interface we could use for RNG or gaming lounges or something. People need something to spend their credits on.”
“Cool, combine them and chuck both in. Smallest viable solution!”
Had someone with oversight been in charge, they might have interjected: “no, you must mean least viable solution”.
S
FD spent an inordinate amount of time on (IMO) the wrong things trying to be Star Citizen, and gloriously mismanaged time doing it- with a bonus prize of wrecking the expansion for lower spec gamers and console owners. This does not include the ongoing balances and tweaks FD need to do with GaaS like ED is.
FD waste most time by releasing sloppy malformed updates they then spend months on end fixing, as well as adding questionable content that in the extreme cases is removed / changed.
Well, part of me thinks FD are / were months behind schedule and released a really minimum viable product, the other thinks its FD not learning from what went before.
My view is that either PvE is seriously beefed up in PP or that FD make PP revolve around Open as much as possible. But thats a thread for another time
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PvP in Powerplay is meaningful because PvE in PP is totally non-functional. No PP NPC is engineered, or actively hunts you. Also PvE aspects such as drop zone size and SC mechanics cripple any chance of NPCs making a cargo run difficult.
Since only players can move merits, destroying players with potentially tens of thousands on them is the most meaningful thing you can do because that can win cycles.
Therefore NPCs have to be more like players (i.e. stronger PvE) or players become the NPCs (to overcome NPC shortfalls).
And for me depth = all of EDs systems working synergistically, so that my actions and judgements are reflected in how I play and how the galaxy acts back. For me there is little depth, because many systems don't go far enough or link effectively to others- the classic being C+P. I can (and have) been a maniac killer and sit amazed as the factions and superpowers around me don't care, as well as rue the potential gameplay criminals could have.
Your issue with ED is with the lack of detail, which is (as I understand it) why SC is taking a long time to develop. I don't think ED is trying to be SC, it just covers some of the same bases, with different priorities. 100 'hand crafted' worlds vs 400B procedurally generated stars for example, or fade to black transitions vs 'realistic' walking about FPS ship boarding. Both are less than ideal, both compromise different areas.
The bugs that keep coming back with Odyssey's 10 (so far) patches is an irritation but again, nothing to do with depth and it has laid even more foundations on which they can (theoretically) build.
You describe difficulty not functionality, again with hyperbole. Functionally the game elements are there. With regular faction support it is still more effective to kill NPCs than players, but interactions with other players can also be tense stand-offs (handbags at dawn), diplomatic negotiations where alliances are formed (on the off-chance they don't expect you to pop over to their discord channel), or other more nuanced interactions rather than simply two soldiers on opposing sides.
If you want more depth in the game perhaps you could spend some time encouraging players to stop using third party tools and actually do their stuff in the game. Without those spreadsheets and charts they may find it's actually a bit more of a challenge to manage a massive territory and communicate out orders.
Hyperbole? That's a bit hippopotamus.
No, I'm describing meaningful PvP- outside of Powerplay PvP loses you nothing. Inside Powerplay it can lose the objectives set by your group.
If I'm carrying 50,000 merits about for a bomb, which is going to pose more of a danger? A G5 player or an unengineered NPC Eagle? This is why PvE needs to be better at one level- the other is because you'll be doing the same loop over and over, and for those times players are not about (or FD keep modes) NPCs need to pose a structured challenge as well as making the feature feel alive and not a recursive Tesco shopping nightmare.
In Powerplay the depth for most is: move cargo from A to B, or shoot X at system Y for a week. You have no depth to being in a power other than its bonuses (which all date back to 2015 with many useless). PP NPCs also treat you as dirt rather than part of the team, why not have them turn up and help out once in a while?
Or make the games systems work together at a deeper level?
I don't think you have a good understanding of how the game works Rubbernuke, based on what you are writing here. Now I am pretty sure you DO have a good understanding, but that's not what you've written here.
Your statement:
is incorrect. Meaningful PvP is neither only in PP nor does PP particularly encourage PvP. It can happen outside of PP, and it is neither likely nor a particularly effective use of time in either. It is however, a lot of fun (for at least one person) and a good reason to want to play the game (PP or otherwise).
I get that you think PP is dull, I think it's dull too. I have never pledged. Perhaps one day it will be better and perhaps then I will pledge
Now I want to see someone swim in a 1-2 inch deep swimming pool.
I like the analogy tbh, because it really highlights the problem with Elite in that regard.
No, I think I have a pretty good idea, thanks.
I just explained a situation where PvP can win or lose a weeks work (and seen it platy out for groups who do play in open). Thats meaningful to those who play PP in Open- in gameplay terms thats a lot more than simply losing your own ship (especially in a game where credits are meaningless- yet another area where ED lacks ideas or direction).I also explain why Powerplay in solo lacks depth and challenge (since its unaltered 2015 gameplay) where you face NPCs with no engineering, and virtually no consequences (for example defection police with no interdictors). You essentially have two missions (cargo or massacre) when you could leverage so much more to create depth and interest.
I get that you think PP is dull, I think it's dull too. I have never pledged. Perhaps one day it will be better and perhaps then I will pledge
Maybe, just maybe if Powerplay (and by extension aspects of ED like dropzones were larger allowing more NPC interaction) had more to do and were more varied...you know, add depth, Powerplay might not be dull.But what do I know
If only FD properly connected C+P with criminal gameplay leveraging anarchy / pirates / Delaine better then you could pour everything into one paddling pool and be able to swim about.
No matter the volume, you still can't swim in a 1inch swimming pool, and you can't do many other activities either, because it's too limited. In fact, having such volume of water used for basically nothing meaningful is a big waste.
That's where you are wrong, those features didn't make it deeper, only larger, so now, we have a 2mile long swimming pool, but with only 1inch of water.
While the analogy is accurate, I prefer to think ED is made of beautiful, promising foundations with nothing on top of it. That's what I felt with every aspect of the game ever since I started to play.
Combat is about pewpew random dudes in a random place (space or ground). Missions that existed decades ago already in others games. In fact, Freelancer had slightly more varied combat missions, 20years ago (attack/defence of satellite/outposts for example).
Powerplay is just siding with a faction, and its leader. Both are protected by plot armor, and NOTHING will ever come out of it. PP was introduced 7years ago, and literally nothing changed to the status quo.
Despite Braben being known for his work on procedrual generation and the Stellar forge, the plants and even rocks in exploration are all from a limited pool of assets, and there is little sense of discovery after your first 10th discovery of the concha labiata (and giggling about it), this time in red instead of green