Elite Dangerous Odyseey and the forgotten console players.

[sandkid]

How do you know it wasn't ready? I mean, before FD attempted it. FD obviously thought it was ready, they could do it.

They presumably thought they could get it to work on consoles.

Reverse time to the day before Odyssey is announced. Look at the state of Elite and its horizons expansion.

How many unresolved bugs? How many of those bugs years old?
How many ships unbalanced? How many engineering blueprints unbalanced? How many engineering blueprints worthless?
How many suggestions regarding C&P? How many suggestions regarding Powerplay? How many suggestions regarding BGS? How many of them implemented?

Look, it's a live game. It'll never be 'done' - we all know that - but there's a marked difference between 'ready for the next step' and 'still trying to not fall flat from making the last step.' You can't put the next foot forward if the last one still hasn't landed. Elite wasn't a mess, but it sure as heck wasn't stable or ready for a massive, totally-new and not consistent with existing features expansion.

Unless you're Digital Extremes (Warframe), then you just add whatever the heck you want and the community accepts you don't know what you're building...but it's psycho and fun, so who cares?

If Fdev couldn't get Elite to a truly stable place pre-EDO, what in the world makes anyone think that EDO would be ready itself? If a carpenter can't get the corners straight on a house frame, what makes you think asking them to make an airplane is going to go smoother or at least 'as good' as the house? They're way outside their wheelhouse (and again, that isn't bad - growth into new areas is almost always good!) and didn't remotely prepare for it.

Now we're here: a dilemma to cancel consoles, the inability to discuss it meaningfully with the affected communities, and the core platform still not satisfied with the expansion in the first place, and no logical path forward to stabilize the entire experience because the previous experience wasn't stable in the first place.

 

[sandkid]

As long as FDev does not tell anything, we still do not know anything.
We will see on the end of FDevs financial year. Or not.

Right know I am enjoying Horizon Forbidden West on my evil evil lastgen basic console and love the fantastic graphics - it's not even speeding up it's fan to max due ro heavy loads... I really don't get, where FDev munches all the computing power... That the last gen consoles are not able to run brilliant graphics is simply a lie. It just correlates with programming skills. Just take a look at HFW or Ghost of tsushima, or the old Mass Effect 4. EDO graphics are a lame symphony of beige compared to the others.
But right now i doubt FDev has the skill and passion for ED to make it run on all consoles. The game is imho currently developed without any trace of passion.

My PS4 has seen some serious hours...is Horizon really running ok? I loved the first one, but was holding off until either a Sale or I get a PS5 (which, let's be honest, the sale will probably come first...)

So, really: does it run ok? Glitches, FPS drops, weird graphic problems?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Reverse time to the day before Odyssey is announced. Look at the state of Elite and its horizons expansion.

How many unresolved bugs? How many of those bugs years old?
How many ships unbalanced? How many engineering blueprints unbalanced? How many engineering blueprints worthless?
How many suggestions regarding C&P? How many suggestions regarding Powerplay? How many suggestions regarding BGS? How many of them implemented?

Look, it's a live game. It'll never be 'done' - we all know that - but there's a marked difference between 'ready for the next step' and 'still trying to not fall flat from making the last step.' You can't put the next foot forward if the last one still hasn't landed. Elite wasn't a mess, but it sure as heck wasn't stable or ready for a massive, totally-new and not consistent with existing features expansion.

Unless you're Digital Extremes (Warframe), then you just add whatever the heck you want and the community accepts you don't know what you're building...but it's psycho and fun, so who cares?

If Fdev couldn't get Elite to a truly stable place pre-EDO, what in the world makes anyone think that EDO would be ready itself? If a carpenter can't get the corners straight on a house frame, what makes you think asking them to make an airplane is going to go smoother or at least 'as good' as the house? They're way outside their wheelhouse (and again, that isn't bad - growth into new areas is almost always good!) and didn't remotely prepare for it.

Now we're here: a dilemma to cancel consoles, the inability to discuss it meaningfully with the affected communities, and the core platform still not satisfied with the expansion in the first place, and no logical path forward to stabilize the entire experience because the previous experience wasn't stable in the first place.

You think FD started work on Odyssey the day before it was announced?

Umm....

 

[SasaThargoidsHunter]

You think FD started work on Odyssey the day before it was announced?

Umm....

Sadly we know that it isn’t the case, but it feels like they working half a year and not almost 4 years on it

 

[Sluggy71]

could have produced a product so janky that they gave it an alpha just to sell preorders, but not take in feedback or heed the very clear warnings - internally and externally - that this expansion wasn't remotely ready for launch.

THIS is one of the most damning aspects to EDO for me, charging customers for the alpha and then releasing around a month later. They knew EDO wasn't ready, because no one could have looked at EDO as released and thought, 'Yeah, this is ready to go.' That's genuine disrespect for your customers, no matter how emotionally invested in Braben and FDEV you may be.

 

[Cmdr Nimineza]

My PS4 has seen some serious hours...is Horizon really running ok? I loved the first one, but was holding off until either a Sale or I get a PS5 (which, let's be honest, the sale will probably come first...)

So, really: does it run ok? Glitches, FPS drops, weird graphic problems?

It runs like a breeze. No issues so far except from very very very minor day-one-things that will be ironed out. And it looks fantastic, even on my old PS4... No single fps drop so far!
I don't have to tell anything about the capabilities of a last gen console. Ghost of Tsushima and Horizon Forbidden West speak for them selves.

I see two possibilities: Their engine is wayyyyy more effective OR the devs are way more skilled in using it. EDO does not deliver similiar visually pleasing images than the other above mentioned games do, but munches Hardware on PC like the big boys.... no need to say anything more.

 

[sandkid]

You think FD started work on Odyssey the day before it was announced?

Umm....

We're having a miscommunication here...let me try to straighten this up:

I think FDev announced Odyssey knowing console was likely not possible, given current development thus far.
I think FDev announced Odyssey knowing their game had many other issues that should be prioritized prior to its launch.
- I'll add here that they did say as much, too. There was meant to be a series of updates to address bugs towards the end of Horizons, remember? We got a few patches, none of them remotely as sweeping as promised or described. Most of the bugs handled weren't even that well known or community targeted.

Now, if we go back to when they first conceived (really, truly) the EDO expansion - not the vision from launch, but a legitimate meeting of, "It's time to discuss our next paid expansion" - my point remains the same, just under a different context. The one I originally intended to you.

Elite was not ready for Odyssey, even at its conception. I don't mean not ready 'right then' - obviously, the expansion needed loads of development - but that given Elite's overall development, there is no single point where deciding to pursue an expansion like Odyssey makes sense. The game has, at no point, ever been ready for this sort-of shift in feature set. That is my point.

Could it have gotten there? Absolutely. World of Warcraft was nowhere near ready for flying mounts - and the design decisions they would entail - at launch. Elite wasn't ready for space feet at launch, but absolutely could have gotten there with time and proper development. Only one of those happened: the passage of time.

Seven years on...how much of the core game remains incomplete. Not 'foundational' and ready for expansion - which is good, and needed - but just flat out imbalanced, incomplete, launched and forgotten. Trading and mining might be the only features that meet that criteria, and only after Mining 2.0 gave that feature set much needed depth and stability.

Again, my point isn't that EDO never had a future. It did, and obviously does now that it's here. My point is FDev was never ready for it. They could have been, but willfully (or ignorantly) chose to forgo proper preparation. Now we're here. Or rather, they are here.

 

[sandkid]

It runs like a breeze. No issues so far except from very very very minor day-one-things that will be ironed out. And it looks fantastic, even on my old PS4... No single fps drop so far!
I don't have to tell anything about the capabilities of a last gen console. Ghost of Tsushima and Horizon Forbidden West speak for them selves.

I see two possibilities: Their engine is wayyyyy more effective OR the devs are way more skilled in using it. EDO does not deliver similiar visually pleasing images than the other above mentioned games do, but munches Hardware on PC like the big boys.... no need to say anything more.

Interesting. Thanks for the feedback!

I personally subscribe to the theory (and it's just that) that FDev lacks the chops to build the EDO experience as envisioned or even planned. The sheer number of inconsistencies and flaws in the code identified by community members is astounding. This expansion wasn't difficult and challenging to build, in the sense that it was pushing boundaries in gaming.

It was difficult and challenging to build for FDev. And that's not bad - I applaud any developer chasing something tough, within reason - it's just that I think FDev really, really went off the deep end of what they're capable of. And it shows.

Forget feature depth and gameplay design for a moment. Really. Just look at the fundamental building blocks of the expansion.
It's a massive mess. Not development crunch, or inventing new ways to work the engine, mess.
We don't know how to code, mess.

They know a heck of a lot more than I do, so I'm hardly the sort of professional critique to determine that. But I trust the credentials of those who've called it out. EDO is littered with the mistakes of rookies. We know a fair portion of the original Elite team - both at managerial and developer levels - is gone. That's just turnover, and totally normal. The thing is, FDev's Elite team is either suffering hollowing out...or just lack of talent.

To be precise, lack of talent for building an FPS expansion to a flight simulator. It's not that they don't have talent...they just don't have the talent for this. That seems to be changing as they fix it, but it begs the question why launch it in a clearly alpha-state to start?

 

[Sunyavadin]

Meanwhile, here I am having spent this week finally playing CP77 on my Series X, and loving the smooth, quality experience, 14 months out from its disastrous launch. CDPR knew that wasn't capable of running on the console hardware of the time and released it anyway, and now have basically given up on further attempts to optimise those versions, with development focused on the new gen versions and adding content not found in the last gen ones. It's possible to turn a broken game around, but only if you started out in a place where you were realistic about the scope of what is possible with it. Anyone who believed we'd see a last gen console version of EDO after seeing the state of the PC version on launch was deluding themselves. I don't believe Frontier are, or we'd see them still promoting one.

 

[[Cancelled Consoleer] boppa_]

. Anyone who believed we'd see a last gen console version of EDO after seeing the state of the PC version on launch was deluding themselves. I don't believe Frontier are, or we'd see them still promoting one.

Meanwhile over on the front page of elitedangerous.com ...

 

[Northpin]

Meanwhile over on the front page of elitedangerous.com ...
View attachment 293386

Whaaaat?
The Galnet articles are the latest ones.


(the point being i see the glass half full, while you see it half empty)

 

[Sensei Jacksama]

Interesting. Thanks for the feedback!

I personally subscribe to the theory (and it's just that) that FDev lacks the chops to build the EDO experience as envisioned or even planned. The sheer number of inconsistencies and flaws in the code identified by community members is astounding. This expansion wasn't difficult and challenging to build, in the sense that it was pushing boundaries in gaming.

It was difficult and challenging to build for FDev. And that's not bad - I applaud any developer chasing something tough, within reason - it's just that I think FDev really, really went off the deep end of what they're capable of. And it shows.

Forget feature depth and gameplay design for a moment. Really. Just look at the fundamental building blocks of the expansion.
It's a massive mess. Not development crunch, or inventing new ways to work the engine, mess.
We don't know how to code, mess.

They know a heck of a lot more than I do, so I'm hardly the sort of professional critique to determine that. But I trust the credentials of those who've called it out. EDO is littered with the mistakes of rookies. We know a fair portion of the original Elite team - both at managerial and developer levels - is gone. That's just turnover, and totally normal. The thing is, FDev's Elite team is either suffering hollowing out...or just lack of talent.

To be precise, lack of talent for building an FPS expansion to a flight simulator. It's not that they don't have talent...they just don't have the talent for this. That seems to be changing as they fix it, but it begs the question why launch it in a clearly alpha-state to start?

I agree with you. I find it inconceivable after playing titles like the battlefield series, Space Engineers, NMS, etc that consoles can't technically handle Odyssey. All of those games have on foot/vehicle transitions, destructible environments (which eat up loads of cpu), and can handle dozens of players in a single instance without much issue. EDO may not ever come to consoles but that's because of fdevs inability to do it and not the fault of console hardware.

 

[[Cancelled Consoleer] boppa_]

Whaaaat?
The Galnet articles are the latest ones.


(the point being i see the glass half full, while you see it half empty)

Maybe you missed the pooooiiiint?

The huge writing that says "Odyssey" "Available For" and "Play Now" on the official Elite Dangerous web site front page, next to the logos for PS4 and XBox One ? I even took the time to highlight them.

This was in response to a comment about it being a good job that Frontier weren't still promoting the old gen consoles.

(the point being you looked at who posted it, rather than the content of the post?! )

 

[Cmdr Nimineza]

I agree with you. I find it inconceivable after playing titles like the battlefield series, Space Engineers, NMS, etc that consoles can't technically handle Odyssey. All of those games have on foot/vehicle transitions, destructible environments (which eat up loads of cpu), and can handle dozens of players in a single instance without much issue. EDO may not ever come to consoles but that's because of fdevs inability to do it and not the fault of console hardware.

Fully agreed. The old gen consoles have enough computing power for what EDO really delivers gaming- and visuals-wise to the end customer. I really see no aspect (not a single one!) of EDO that is so next-gen, that I could be justified not to run on older consoles. There is no gpu-hungry raytracing in puddles after a rain or such thing as dynamic weather. There are no complex clouds in the sky, there is no overly complex planetary-building-system (see the visual recognizeable tiles on planet surfaces). No, EDO does not deliver next-gen gameplay or visuals and should not need next-gen hardware. It's still a symphony of beige with a gameplay depth of one inch. It does not (!) push the boundaries of space gaming. EDO is like an driving an old Volkwagen Golf II with a loud sports tailpipe but drinking fuel like a formula 1 race car. C'mon FDev, get your game sorted.

Compared to Ghost of Tsushima, Horizon Forbidden West (and even more it's predecessor (Zero dawn) or the old Mass Effect 4: andromeda EDO looks aged and old school.

Yes, ED simulates planetary movement even if you are on foot. Let's be honest. Except from a dynamic day/night-cycle (what other games do as well), it is not neccessary, to compute a small dot of a distant planet in the skybox, which nobody will notice, when on foot. Except from that, almost all other game does better graphicswise with less ressources.
E.g. the GoT or HFW don't even manage to force my old base ps4 to speed up it's fan to a high level. So much for coding skills. And Sucker Punch or Guerilla Games or Hello Games are not the biggest developper studios either.

If FDev WANTS to get it running on even the old consoles it IS doable, if they assign ENOUGH and specialists to this task. It's more a question of wanting and passion than of computing power on the old consoles. And maybe of using an engine, that is appropriate for the task. I hope, the cobra engine is... If I look back at Mass Effect 4: the Frostbite Engine was appropriate and did perform well.

Apart from that, all the above mentioned games saw a dense update cycle after release - not only one update per month as EDO sees (with very limited Bugfixes for us on console)

 

[Sensei Jacksama]

Fully agreed. The old gen consoles have enough computing power for what EDO really delivers gaming- and visuals-wise to the end customer. I really see no aspect (not a single one!) of EDO that is so next-gen, that I could be justified not to run on older consoles. There is no gpu-hungry raytracing in puddles after a rain or such thing as dynamic weather. There are no complex clouds in the sky, there is no overly complex planetary-building-system (see the visual recognizeable tiles on planet surfaces). No, EDO does not deliver next-gen gameplay or visuals and should not need next-gen hardware. It's still a symphony of beige with a gameplay depth of one inch. It does not (!) push the boundaries of space gaming. EDO is like an driving an old Volkwagen Golf II with a loud sports tailpipe but drinking fuel like a formula 1 race car. C'mon FDev, get your game sorted.

Compared to Ghost of Tsushima, Horizon Forbidden West (and even more it's predecessor (Zero dawn) or the old Mass Effect 4: andromeda EDO looks aged and old school.

Yes, ED simulates planetary movement even if you are on foot. Let's be honest. Except from a dynamic day/night-cycle (what other games do as well), it is not neccessary, to compute a small dot of a distant planet in the skybox, which nobody will notice, when on foot. Except from that, almost all other game does better graphicswise with less ressources.
E.g. the GoT or HFW don't even manage to force my old base ps4 to speed up it's fan to a high level. So much for coding skills. And Sucker Punch or Guerilla Games or Hello Games are not the biggest developper studios either.

If FDev WANTS to get it running on even the old consoles it IS doable, if they assign ENOUGH and specialists to this task. It's more a question of wanting and passion than of computing power on the old consoles. And maybe of using an engine, that is appropriate for the task. I hope, the cobra engine is... If I look back at Mass Effect 4: the Frostbite Engine was appropriate and did perform well.

Apart from that, all the above mentioned games saw a dense update cycle after release - not only one update per month as EDO sees (with very limited Bugfixes for us on console)

I really don't mind that EDO is bland compared to other games. It's understandable that fdevs first FPS isn't comparable to something like destiny or halo. It just annoys me when forumites keep toting the line that there's no possible way consoles can handle O. Those same forumites then turn around and complain that O is a "generic fps game like halo". I'm like... umm no Halo isn't a generic fps game, you've just never played any fps games and just threw out the first random name you could think of. The fact that the forums apparently don't understand fps games as a whole really casts doubt on their judgement that we can't handle it. Fdev can't handle it. The consoles can.

 

[Spaceman-FXL5]

That they then chose to intentionally build the flagship expansion without considering the other platforms is an equally huge blunder. One that defies logic. This is not a case of Icarus got too close to the sun. This is a case of blatant mismanagement, overzealous projections, and really bad communication strategies.

.............
You said it (PS4 user not intending to get £1200+ PC to play one £40 game, EVER)

PS - Fdev, just Port it over with lower graphics options, I don't want a FPS, there are other games for that, I want Elite - a brilliant space sim far better than anything else available!!!

 

[Spaceman-FXL5]

That the last gen consoles are not able to run brilliant graphics is simply a lie. It just correlates with programming skills.

Exactly.

Does anyone else think it is totally weird that I am waiting to give my money to FDev for EDO on PS4, but they just don't want to take it!

 

[Sunyavadin]

If FDev WANTS to get it running on even the old consoles it IS doable, if they assign ENOUGH and specialists to this task. It's more a question of wanting and passion than of computing power on the old consoles. And maybe of using an engine, that is appropriate for the task. I hope, the cobra engine is... If I look back at Mass Effect 4: the Frostbite Engine was appropriate and did perform well.

The reason EA stopped forcing all their studios to use Frostbite was that it had repeatedly been shown to be WHOLLY inadequate for a bunch of different types of gameplay, with a bunch of studios working on various games having to independently solve the same problems with different bodges, resulting in loads of delays as they needed to rescope projects, scale them back, or if you were the Dragon Age team, spend some time reassigned as a support studio to show folks some of the workarounds for doing basic stuff which you had to MacGyver together when working on Inquisition.

 

[Sunyavadin]

Meanwhile over on the front page of elitedangerous.com ...
View attachment 293386

Cropping out the section above which states that Odyssey is available on Epic and Steam and the bit below talking only about Elite Dangerous, removes the context of those logos pretty effectively, yes.

 

[Sunyavadin]

Those same forumites then turn around and complain that O is a "generic fps game like halo".

It's definitely not.
A core pillar of FPS design is rock solid framerates and responsivity, with graphical fanciness coming later and only to whatever degree the hardware allows without losing performance. (Ignoring this rule just to try and pull off a console launch is a major part of why so many XBox 360 and PS3 ports of big name PC titles were so legendarily bad like Crysis 2 running at Sub-20FPS) Not a central design philosophy Odyssey was ever built around. If they had wanted a shooter first and foremost out of Odyssey they'd have designed it fundamentally differently from the outset and we'd have a lot fewer issues, but any non-FPS gameplay would have suffered a bunch more.