Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

The question is: Why would Brandon Sanderson take 15.4 m in the first place when 1 m is enough to finish what he planned?

Its over 20 million now.

But let me ask you, if you asked for 1 million, and some idiots gave you 20, would you complain?

Chris certainly didn't.

But Brandon, can't complain. Guy actually delivers.

There's a bit of a funny story behind this. Basically he started making posts about how he's done something not good. Guy pumps out multiple books per year. He's a writing machine. What could he have done wrong? Are we not getting the 5th Stormlight Archive this year? Or something else?

He finally fesses up... due to covid restrictions he's had more time, and he somehow ended up writing 4-5 more books in his spare time. 3 of which are Cosmere books (if you read Sanderson's books, you know how big this is).

The kickstarter is basically so he can self-publish rather than go through the publishers.
 
It would be...however. Remember this is a game where CR talked about fully physicalised NPC's, that would go to work, go home and sleep and return to work the next day even if there was no-one there to see them, these NPC's would be using processing power and server bandwidth even if no-one else was even on the same planet. So while yes you can use culling and tricks, I think that's something that hasn't so far been considered. I mean really in the above scenario you would just use some spare cycles to caclulate where the NPC should be at that time of the day and only render them when actual players get close enough to see them, but that's not what CR wants to do, he wants the cities to be living and breathing cities with physicalised NPC's undertaking day to day activities even when there is no one else there.
I'll take your word for it, but this seems almost inconceivably wasteful.
your description doesn't even account for the possibilities with the interactions between NPCs, and between "unseen" players and NPCs, and further possibilities for interactions between "unseen" players, NPCs, and other NPCs who have to interact with the former 2 groups at the same time as consequences or even as part of their scheduled interactions.

and on top of that, in this dream of a game, you are also have to take into account for the possibilities of interactions with non intelligent objects... like ships, cargo inside of them, all the ships systems in said ships, and even the fluid dynamics for a fluidic object in a bottle somewhere, all that claimed to be fully physicalized in real time.

time and again all that proves that even backers and defenders of this faith can't even fully comprehend what they're actually believing in.
Personally, I'm a huge fan of abstraction and approximation anywhere the precise details are unlikely to be noticed. Save the detail for when and where it's needed, IMO, as long as the macro-scale results are credible.



I can probably get the same end result with a couple of tables, a bag of dice (or other RNG), and 6th-grade understanding of statistics and probabilities.

It seems to me, the folks in this thread who are enjoying and defending SC, are happy with SC as it is now. None of this, or any of the promises CR and CIg have made, matter.

In fairness they do intend some forms of abstraction. Some NPCs can now spawn/despawn via side rooms etc. And in theory any location which isn't occupied by players isn't maintained by the server. (Although in practice players occupy all of the major hubs before long).

But the overall 'living breathing' cities intention is still being pursued.

On top of that 'Virtual NPCs' are supposed to be generated based on the local state of a dynamic background simulation, and then brought into being on player proximity / interaction. (The only problem being that those elements were meant to come online every year since 2018. And are still missing...)

The current 'Subsumption' city NPCs infamously stop working the minute the server hits heavy load. (An issue which troubles their king too, the bartender, who is supposed to represent a highly reactive AI system which can alter routines based on changing environments and circumstances. He tends to stare into space a lot....)

But you'll be pleased to know that they plan to add long-form hygiene routines to these systems. Everything is going to plan...

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That's going to be tough, since they don't have working toilets or sinks. Maybe they could have it so after an NPC comes out of the washroom, for a few minutes you'd be able to ask it if they washed their hands. To which, they'd hold up their hands and say "the sinks don't work" as you realize, neither do the toilets...and then you wonder how long till they add mops to this fidelity-filled endeavour.
 
The question is: Why would Brandon Sanderson take 15.4 m in the first place when 1 m is enough to finish what he planned?

So he can pay himself 15.4 times as much would be my guess.

if you read Sanderson's books

I don't, well not much. I like his approach to certain things, especially the stance that even fantasy needs to make sense and have context (his laws of magic), but the plots are uninspired and the flavor is decidedly...Mormon (uncomfortably asexual in ways I wouldn't have thought possible). That said, I'm certainly impressed with the volume of his output.

It seems to me, the folks in this thread who are enjoying and defending SC, are happy with SC as it is now. None of this, or any of the promises CR and CIg have made, matter.

Well, if they like what they've got, they like what they've got.

I'm just not sold yet.
 
Starts out interesting, ends up going into fantasy. Quanta... my rear end.

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Wow you are not kidding, as if the "economy" and I say that in the broadest context of economy that it's possible to express, basically none, should matter to ships being destroyed, in an ALPHA!
 
Wow you are not kidding, as if the "economy" and I say that in the broadest context of economy that it's possible to express, basically none, should matter to ships being destroyed, in an ALPHA!

Well, to be fair, they are dreaming about what might be later, when the game is released... hahahaha
 
The PvP/PvE arguments continue to rage on Spectrum.

I wonder how long before they start calling these debates "Hotel California"?


OP takes the usual "git gud" stance, arguing traders should hire escorts, etc. Basically saying, this is not a game for solo players or casual PvEers. We've people wanting the same from ED as well.

There is a good summary upvoted as to what has happened time and again when devs try and go the full loot hardcore death route and how it drives away the PvEers and and in the end the PvPers get bored and move on when the PvEers do as they have nobody left to target. Its happened time and time again, but some people just don't want to accept it, they point to EvE as showing it can be done. They are not wrong, it can be done, but its got to be done right, and this is CIG we are talking about, who simultaneously waffle on about 10 to 1 NPC to player ratios and how you'll be able to PvE while at the same time saying they want the verse to be a dangerous place.

We have posts like these:

You get that not everyone has super talented PVP buddies on speed dial right?

You don't deserve to enjoy the game then.

Or at least that seems to be a prevailing opinion. It's a dumb opinion, but people seem to have it.

People pointing out how the idea that if you can't call on friends shouldn't play the game.

They fail to consider what would happen to the game and funding if CIG did actually cater more to the PvP crowd, and in the long run, if there is not enough safety for the casual PvEer.

It will not be stonks for CIG.

And some people seem to know what CIG are doing

Luckily for us that scenario doesn't describe what the devs are planning for Star Citizen.

Not sure whether he is arguing that if CIG go down the road of catering to PvPers it won't follow the same pattern as most hardcore MMOs or whether he is arguing that CIG are not going down the hardcore road.

Then a thread from someone on the opposite side saying PvP isn't fun because its one sided.


And of course, this is a typical reason.

I'd actually be interested in seeing how PvPers would react if trade/mining ships were very heavily protected and had defensive (not offensive, so they can't be used to attack others) weapons and modules that could enable them to survive a gank.

I can only imagine the wailing and salt would be glorious.
 
I'd actually be interested in seeing how PvPers would react if trade/mining ships were very heavily protected and had defensive (not offensive, so they can't be used to attack others) weapons and modules that could enable them to survive a gank.

In Jumpgate, the Tow was the standard heavy cargo ship. I remember a guy called Ridgeway who ran one of the major player factions who never got out of his Tow because it was so potent, defensively speaking. Being able to shoot him down, or even seeing him shot down, was a rarity and point of pride among his opponents. The amount of firepower I saw thrown at him time and time again, only to have him kill a couple of stragglers and escape was comical. When I was eventually put on his group's KoS list for trespassing (or some other nonsense reason), I knew a direct confrontation was hopeless, so I just bought a cargo ship of my own, took out a loan (from another player group I was aligned with) equal to about fifty times the credits I was ever going to make (I never planned on being able to pay them back, and I'm pretty sure they immediately forgot they'd given me money anyway) then in the dead of night, snuck into the station Ridgeway's group had claimed, and stripped it (buying all the stock then selling it at a loss to hostile stations...a grievous offense in a system where all inventories were player made and transported). It bankrupted me, took a harrowing half dozen trips to accomplish (the last few, after I was detected, greatly aided by the speed and durability of my Tow), and meant that I had to spend the next year almost exclusively in the second fastest ship in the game (a largely untouchable ranger, which had limited defense and firepower, but amazing sensors and speed) looking over my shoulder everywhere I went (docking under fire is always dangerous)...but it was so worth it. They never did mange to shoot me down, though I got a few of them by surprise, when opportunities presented themselves.

Anyway, I don't think most PvPers would have a problem with difficult targets (and even ED is an example of this...my CMDR has been engaged countless times, not because it was easy, but because his opponents knew he could run and, if need be, fight), and I think many, if not most, of them relish being the underdog...as long as everyone is playing by the same rules. Of course, playing by the same rules gives groups an edge (organization is OP) over individuals in most areas (but not all), and means skill matters (though too narrow an applicable skill set can also be boring, just ask CQC or the TC plasma FDL 'meta').

Also, the distinction between offensive and defensive weapons is an arbitrary one. Systems that make such a distinction, and actively prohibit off-label uses, are blatantly absurd and usually not fun, IMO.
 
Starts out interesting, ends up going into fantasy. Quanta... my rear end.
(...spectrum quotes....)
in a nutshell:
"It's ALPHA !!!!111!!!"
- "OK then since it's an alpha, lets get a lot of ships that are free to spawn at will and try and break the system, since that's what alpha testers do"
"IT'S NOT AN ALPHA IT'S A RELEASED GAME AND THERES A DELICATE ECONOMY !!!1!!!11"

The usual self contradicting cultist arguments. FWIW if i was the developer of a thing like that, I'd definitely go for a free-for-all unlimited money + unlimited ships thing so I could find the system limits and tune the code for the worst scenario.
 
In Jumpgate, the Tow was the standard heavy cargo ship. I remember a guy called Ridgeway who ran one of the major player factions who never got out of his Tow because it was so potent, defensively speaking. Being able to shoot him down, or even seeing him shot down, was a rarity and point of pride among his opponents. The amount of firepower I saw thrown at him time and time again, only to have him kill a couple of stragglers and escape was comical. When I was eventually put on his group's KoS list for trespassing (or some other nonsense reason), I knew a direct confrontation was hopeless, so I just bought a cargo ship of my own, took out a loan (from another player group I was aligned with) equal to about fifty times the credits I was ever going to make (I never planned on being able to pay them back, and I'm pretty sure they immediately forgot they'd given me money anyway) then in the dead of night, snuck into the station Ridgeway's group had claimed, and stripped it (buying all the stock then selling it at a loss to hostile stations...a grievous offense in a system where all inventories were player made and transported). It bankrupted me, took a harrowing half dozen trips to accomplish (the last few, after I was detected, greatly aided by the speed and durability of my Tow), and meant that I had to spend the next year almost exclusively in the second fastest ship in the game (a largely untouchable ranger, which had limited defense and firepower, but amazing sensors and speed) looking over my shoulder everywhere I went (docking under fire is always dangerous)...but it was so worth it. They never did mange to shoot me down, though I got a few of them by surprise, when opportunities presented themselves.

Anyway, I don't think most PvPers would have a problem with difficult targets (and even ED is an example of this...my CMDR has been engaged countless times, not because it was easy, but because his opponents knew he could run and, if need be, fight), and I think many, if not most, of them relish being the underdog...as long as everyone is playing by the same rules. Of course, playing by the same rules gives groups an edge (organization is OP) over individuals in most areas (but not all), and means skill matters (though too narrow an applicable skill set can also be boring, just ask CQC or the TC plasma FDL 'meta').

Also, the distinction between offensive and defensive weapons is an arbitrary one. Systems that make such a distinction, and actively prohibit off-label uses, are blatantly absurd and usually not fun, IMO.

Ok, so that's the Tow, and presumably an upgraded one? Should the game go live, what should people do until they can afford one?
 
Should the game go live, what should people do until they can afford one?

Stick to relatively safe areas, whatever that happens to mean under the specific realities of the game in question.

In Jumpgate there were numerous consequence mechanisms as well as logistical and tactical considerations that ED doesn't have. Most areas were relatively safe for most traders, except when hostilities between factions flared, and even then anywhere friendly forces were patrolling, or sufficiently far behind your own lines, were still relatively safe. Sure some people went after traders or miners that couldn't defend themselves, but they didn't have an easy time of it. Everyone depended on what miners and traders were doing, so almost everyone was discouraged from molesting them by self-interest. Those that would harm the systems others depended upon quickly turned almost everyone against them and would have a very hard time unless they were very good and had friends. Mechanically, various chokepoints (the titular jumpgates) and sensors that had ranges far in excess of most weapon ranges, both gave time to flee and time for assistance to catch up. Being closer to help was also a big deal because travel time was a real factor.

In ED, which has no meaningful consequence systems, and instomatic logistics (even combat fit ships have dozens of systems that are only one fifteen second jump sequence away from any place free of hard masslock), relative safety is obtained by avoiding potential threats (and I use the term loosely, because without consequence threat starts to become uselessly subjective) until one has mastered the nearly infallible escape mechanisms.

From what little I know of Star Citizen, it will be somewhere in the middle. Likely there will be incentives to refrain from harming, and even come to the aid of, non-hostile vessels. There might be some sort of meaningful C&P. Logistics, while probably not as much of an issue as with Jumpgate, seems like it will be more of a factor than ED.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
So, other than the "proof of life" video done with his wife some time ago and the forgettable prerecorded 2 minutes last CitCon does anyone know when was the last time Chris Roberts really showed up on camera for a SC related topic. What about his brother Erin Roberts?
 
The usual self contradicting cultist arguments. FWIW if i was the developer of a thing like that, I'd definitely go for a free-for-all unlimited money + unlimited ships thing so I could find the system limits and tune the code for the worst scenario.

Except for one minor problem, I very much suspect it would break immediately every time they turned on the server because lets face it, it's pretty unstable at the moment. Yes there are players who claim they haven't had a crash for a long time, but I think this is because CIG are constraining the players to a few activities that don't break the server. Throw dozens of huge ships in there and I wonder just how long it would last?
 
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