If you're wondering where Frontier's attention is directed at...

[Darth Ender]

After getting corvette and G5ing it for PvP i noticed that no other ships except for PvP cutters and condas could even hold a candle to it. And even then the corvette is king of big ship 1v1s. I fell back to flying a DBX with 2500 hull (40+%resist all around), 760 shield (30% thermal resist 50+% others) and a 477 m/s boost. Its got LR fuel rails and a LR/TV fixed beam. I have never had more fun in a ship. Its an absolute blast to fly.

playing with a handicap is a good way to challenge yourself when left with a static game.

a more interesting solution for a game still theoretically in active development might be for them to create challenges that balance with players in maxed out ships. to make the gameplay around such players require doing those much more difficult tasks to maintain use of such powerful assets.

there's no reason why while still being developed, any of the options available to players results in encouraging handicapping yourself by avoiding the very progression the game centers around.

 

[Fizzatron]

There was actually one other oblique reference to ED development costs - in the discussion on capitalizing R&D expenses. Ongoing ED development pulls down the percentage of R&D they can capitalize (i.e. turn into sold products) because it goes into free updates. DB said that percentage was abnormally low last half-year because they spent a lot on post-release Odyssey updates, but they forecast that returning to their usual level going forward. From that I think we can read that the intensive Odyssey-fixing push is done, but we can expect to receive the same level of maintenance work that was typical in past years. TBF I'm not really sure what that means in practice - Horizons (and Beyond, remember that?) were marketed as ongoing "seasons" of rolling content releases, but Odyssey was described as a basically feature-complete release. I don't think there's a clear precedent for what a "normal" amount of ED maintenance effort would look like from the outside.

Honestly, I feel like the 'seasons' etc.. back and forth is really an effort to try and work out a model or description that encapsulates the development arc of Elite from beginning to 'end'. I've used the Photoshop example before, but maybe it may be better to think of OS X, which had its names Snow Leopard, Mojave etc.. similar to that of E Horizons, Beyond & Odyssey, they really describe significant developments rather than 'complete' products, can it be said that Photoshop or OS X is complete? There's always something to implement, improve or fix.

I don't expect the big features that have been bandied about here which were not announced as part of Odyssey to ever come to Odyssey, but I do expect and hope that overall performance will still be worked on and that there will be more reveals to come, which Frontier have hinted at, and not just story/narrative. Though I do expect those features to appear in Elite in some future expansion, if the overall success of Elite continues to warrant the expenditure.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

They have a lot more games on sale than the four included in that chart. ED would be inconvenient to include at any rate since they only gave themselves room for five years of revenue history. If they compressed the graph to make ED fit, it would be even harder to see the short spike of JWE2 revenue that he actually wanted to talk about there.

Odd isn't 5 years old and it was included on the previous chart.

Another bit that stood out is the statement about Lemnis Gate being put on an accelerated amortisation schedule given the lack of retention/growth after the launch. One of the reasons to put products on accelerated amortisation schedules is when you think the product is mainly going to generate taxable revenues on the short term and/or "die" relatively soon so you can get more tax deductions early on as well; instead of spreading them more evenly to future years where you actually may not have too much taxable income to deduct from.

Well, Elite or EDO weren´t explicitly mentioned to be under such an accelerated amortisation schedule, unlike Lemnis Gate. To the contrary the way Elite and JWE were referred to suggested a more classic depreciation mode for those. Which indicates FDEV still expects more consistent Elite (and JWE) taxable revenues for a reasonable time ahead.

At the risk of being more annoying than usual, could that also be because the elite division is making a loss? I have no idea how corporate accounting works at that level, but assuming costs are associated to specific revenue (possibly unlikely) then you don't need to amortise anything if its a loss No idea.

Look horizons is great. Im actually bursting for the next ship kit sale because my classic account is missing the cutter ship skin and im genuinely having a blast in it. Giving frontier more money is about as concrete as update 12.. its comical even, but looking forward to a sale regardless.

If anything, my guess though is they've gone for skeleton crew with server costs to balance whatever positive revenue they get at the moment. Unfortunately that's only going to be like a m class star for the game going forward. Odd is bust.. i think doing a respectable version of star citizen using the horizons client (critically so console players are included again and stop tearing down the game on public forums) would be an interesting way out. Having said, both selling ships or losing face aren't in frontiers dna so that's probably extreme fantasy.

 

[Han Zulu]

We played for about 2 weeks? There were bugs of course but they weren't the main issue. The feedback I got from my friends was similiar in sentiment for myself. They felt that Elite Dangerous required too much time investment to play sustainably. i.e. We all have daily jobs and don't really have hours to dedicate to the mundane relogging grind, searching of Odyssey outposts for materials, long supercruise travel times, yet we still love the game. It just feels like a chore to play and not really friendly to casual players.

I know the game is meant to be "Hard", "Dangerous", whatever you want to call it. Everyone has differing opinions and I respect that. I just wish it was more casual friendly so I could log in for 1-2 hours a day and still feel like I'm making progress.

Thank you for reading the second part if you did.

Agree. My problem with Elite is the time constraint on the missions. I'm retired, but have a lot of things happening around me in the family constantly, and I find it too stressful to have just a day or less to finish a mission. There's another game where missions never expire. I can log out, and log in another day, and continue, which makes it a lot more enjoyable to me. If that would change in Elite, I probably would start playing again, but as it is right now, it just doesn't fit in my schedule.

 

[Viajero]

I have no idea how corporate accounting works at that level, but assuming costs are associated to specific revenue (possibly unlikely) then you don't need to amortise anything if its a loss No idea.

Amortization of capitalized dev expenses refers to the expenses to develop it up to the point of release. What I believe you are referring to is rather non capitalized costs after release (not amortization).

If Elite as a franchise was making an operational loss post releases and/or if they thought it was going to be making a loss going forward then it would have probably been shut down some time ago. Or possibly declared an accelerated amortization for EDO, which is not the case though. This rather suggests FDEV may still be confident in consistent profits from the franchise (base game + EDO + whatever comes next) going forward.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

And even then the corvette is king of big ship 1v1s

I think there’s a few Cutter owners that would beg to differ on that one

 

[Viajero]

I noticed that too. While the base game dev costs are certainly fully amortized by now, I do think we can take some comfort from the fact that EDO wasn't mentioned in the same terms as Lemnis Gate. Between that and DB's comments about steering the ship, it does sound like they are planning on a normal lifespan for EDO. Which, from their "create and nurture" commentary throughout, I guess means they still plan to maintain it (and get revenue from selling copies) for another 4-5 years. That's good!

There was actually one other oblique reference to ED development costs - in the discussion on capitalizing R&D expenses. Ongoing ED development pulls down the percentage of R&D they can capitalize (i.e. turn into sold products) because it goes into free updates. DB said that percentage was abnormally low last half-year because they spent a lot on post-release Odyssey updates, but they forecast that returning to their usual level going forward. From that I think we can read that the intensive Odyssey-fixing push is done, but we can expect to receive the same level of maintenance work that was typical in past years. TBF I'm not really sure what that means in practice - Horizons (and Beyond, remember that?) were marketed as ongoing "seasons" of rolling content releases, but Odyssey was described as a basically feature-complete release. I don't think there's a clear precedent for what a "normal" amount of ED maintenance effort would look like from the outside.

Indeed. As for your last point. We would have to check but I highly doubt the subsequent updates to Horizons 2.0 (i.e. 2.1 to 2.4) and all 4 updates in Beyond or the updates after Beyond including the FC update were capitalized anyways (maybe some of the Horizons ones were?). So those are not necessarily a bad benchmark for ongoing support Quality and quantity of the content in those varied a lot so anything in between goes. Alternatively FDEV could even start at some point the dev of another PDLC... I know, heresy!

Elite has most of the time had a portion of its staff dedicated to new product development (i.e. PDLC, capitalized costs) and another to ongoing support (free updates). The proportion of staff between the two elements fluctuating along the way based on the needs at the time. The statement you refer to seems to indicate that the same team that was used to develop EDO (capitalized costs) has remained after release for a while to produce free updates and that that team, or a part of it at least, is probably demobilizing now. It does not necessarily mean that the portion of the team dedicated to the usual free update support is demobilized as well.

 

[Moriarte]

I think there’s a few Cutter owners that would beg to differ on that one

The point is that while a corvette/cutter work great in conjunction with inferiority complex, small ships are fun for entirely different reasons. Specifically when it comes to faoff flying on Ariel moon in SOL, while in VR, drunk, at 5 in the morning.

 

[Ozric]

I don't have a comment on this, but need to say:-

Seagull
Seagulls
Seagull

Muwahahahaha!

 

[Bottom Hat]

My god that is creepy as!

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Amortization of capitalized dev expenses refers to the expenses to develop it up to the point of release. What I believe you are referring to is rather non capitalized costs after release (not amortization).

If Elite as a franchise was making an operational loss post releases and/or if they thought it was going to be making a loss going forward then it would have probably been shut down some time ago. Or possibly declared an accelerated amortization for EDO, which is not the case though. This rather suggests FDEV may still be confident in consistent profits from the franchise (base game + EDO + whatever comes next) going forward.

Yeah i guess so. Given the abandonment and communication that does not much more than keep it alive, its hard to guess from the outside. The only thing we know its its probable they won't turn it off and also probable its in maintenance mode (they were happy to do this for 2019 - 2021 in practice, so they could just do that again).

Yeah i hope they make more out of arx than the community would account for. You can finish an account via purchases once you have one or two skins for every ship you fly.. but there's a steady stream of new players for the base came so maybe that is the silent majority revenue.

Also a gut feeling tells me since they gave up on consoles, they've probably adjusted the development expense to still be profitable accounting for no sales going forward on console. I also don't think they're as insignificant as content creators have been trying to extrapolate.. they seem very visible outside the forums anyway.

 

[Viajero]

The only thing we know its its probable they won't turn it off and also probable its in maintenance mode (they were happy to do this for 2019 - 2021 in practice, so they could just do that again).

I think it is a bit of a stretch to call that 2019-2021 period as "maintenance mode" when that was precisely the time where most of the Elite resources were likely devoted to develop EDO, a full on brand new PDLC

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

I think it is a bit of a stretch to call that 2019-2021 period as "maintenance mode" when that was precisely the time where most of the Elite resources were likely devoted to develop EDO, a full on brand new PDLC

Well the live game was in maintenance mode.. what game were you playing? They even turned off galnet for.. the good part of a year?

Sure lets just agree to consider the definitions differently.

At this point, the only things that matter are making the most of what we have, there's no "its coming / will be fixed / something in the future" for elite to defer discussion into.

 

[Sublime]

The management titles all follow the same model of releasing a base game followed by a DLC every 3-4 months for 2-3 years. Elite is an outlier to that model.

It’s like they are trying to follow the Paradox DLC model with those games, but they have nowhere near the quality of end user communications and weekly, extremely detailed, dev diaries that Paradox do.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I know the game is meant to be "Hard", "Dangerous", whatever you want to call it. Everyone has differing opinions and I respect that. I just wish it was more casual friendly so I could log in for 1-2 hours a day and still feel like I'm making progress.

Here's the thing I find interesting about this game: it really highlights the difference between the "casual -> hard core" spectrum, which is how much attention you're willing to put into a game, and the "casual -> full time job" spectrum, which is about how much time you have available to put into a game. This is a game that can be friendly to the time poor, but not if you choose not give it your attention.

This is a game where most players frequently fly right by high-grade emissions because they have their ship on autopilot so they can better watch Netflix. This is a game where players routinely ignore other sources of data, so they can browse the Web. This is a game where players frequently ignore nearby metallic meteorites on the surface of a world, for the sake of a mobile game. But when they decide they need this stuff, they'll gather it in the most inefficient and unfun manner possible, going far out of their way to "relog" repeatedly at a site known to be "easy" to gather materials or data at.

This is also a game where the vast majority of activities in the game can be done in small, inexpensive, and readily available ships. This is a game where the majority of NPC enemies you'll encounter the game can be defeated without engineering... if you make an effort to develop the skills to defeat them, and don't rely on "this one weird trick" to inflate your Combat rating. And of course, this is a game where G3 engineering can be used to defeat most of the rest.

 

[Viajero]

Well the live game was in maintenance mode.. what game were you playing? They even turned off galnet for.. the good part of a year?

The same as you, except apparently I am the only one that would be excited if it was confirmed that FDEV was devoting a significant part of its resources to a brand new PDLC

 

[Old Duck]

Well the live game was in maintenance mode.. what game were you playing? They even turned off galnet for.. the good part of a year?

That was a horrible year...

 

[Old Duck]

As a quick summary of this 4 month old video with regards to Elite Dangerous, there is little mention of Elite Dangerous apart from a small mention of supporting the game.

In wanting to make a specific point to one of the participants in this thread, I did a search on David Braben's posts here (I'm looking for something specific), and in doing so I was hit by just how active David used to be on this forum in the early years, only to go silent for four years, then finally returning to offer a few apologies regarding Odyssey.

If communication is key to a relationship, then it does feel like David Braben's relationship with Elite Dangerous is on the rocks. This is especially glaring when I look at Sean Murray's continued excitement about NMS, or Space Engineers lead developer's (forget his name) engagement with that community, same with X4, etc.

Now I have to get back to finding that specific quote I was looking for. It must be tucked away in some earnings report, which seems to be the only thing Mr. Braben is interested in these days (emphasis on "seems").

 

[Northpin]

In wanting to make a specific point to one of the participants in this thread, I did a search on David Braben's posts here (I'm looking for something specific), and in doing so I was hit by just how active David used to be on this forum in the early years, only to go silent for four years, then finally returning to offer a few apologies regarding Odyssey.

You mean in the period where Elite was their only game?

The only thing i really hope for is that Elite is still a game close to his heart and that he will make efforts to keep it running even if that means maintenance mode and funding it from other, more successful, projects

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

The same as you, except apparently I am the only one that would be excited if it was confirmed that FDEV was devoting a significant part of its resources to a brand new PDLC

Depends on how you look at it i guess. For a single player game due for a dlc expansion, perfect yes. Exactly as expected, completely match to industry standards, nothing to see here, very normal.

For a live service game, mmo, whatever that could be, absolutely woeful.

Actually elite couldn't claim to be an online service game apart from the community management. In terms of game updates its like a single player game that's been released and nurtured.

That was a horrible year...

I didn't mind it Hand up here mainly a single player simulator player. The only thing that's ever been challenging here was challenging back then too, having expectations managed by white knights due to silence from frontier.