Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[VR Golgot]

On bugs that don't bug you:

Thought it was worth a quick drop in on the idea of bugs vs playability.

There are a ton of retro bugs in SC that just hang around. Often not at the frequency they used to occur, and often in a semi fixed state. But still there, just with a band aid smooshed on top of them.

Here are some examples that I wouldn't normally share, because they're not super funny, and because we've seen them all before:

Ship Elevators Separating From Ships:

An example of a band aid working:

(bonus one)

Elevator descending out of ship in QT (regression of old bug?):

(Yep they did end up in space)
(Bonus example: LevelCap in Spaaaaace)

Not the end of the world, or the game. But like a roster of familiar bugs, they've all been through various 'should work now' fixes, but here they still are...

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/q9tg4q/_/hh3b3nx

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/q9tg4q/i_got_knocked_down_and_my_ship_was_blown_over/hh3b3nx/

Which just kinda begs the question, are these issues just going to keep accruing? Lost in the spaghetti code, marked as 'fixed', sometimes just affecting ship bathroom X or whatever? But still there, keeping the bugginess on simmer, and occasionally bubbling up alongside more systemic stuff to form game-breaking 'meh'?

Personally I think: Yep

---

Hypothetical: What's worse?
A grenade which always boomerangs back and kills you? Or one which only kills you once every 20 throws?

 

[Darkfyre99]

The guy doing bedsheet deformation can only be assigned to tasks related to its domain of expertise. No one know if this guy can be helpful on other tasks on the actual SQ42 alpha.
Yes "there are so many other critically fundamental things to sort", but which critical thing this particular guy can work on ? If he's not helpful on any of those tasks, CIG should fire him or try to add a new capability to its engine ?

And that’s why this project is so wasteful with other people's money. You don’t hire a specialist in “cloth simulations” during the pre-alpha phase of production, when you don’t even have your core technologies finalized, let alone your main game loops up and running. Especially if you're using an engine that already does 90% of what you want to do out of the box.

You hire them during the beta and/or gamma phase, when you're bringing your game to life, and you already have a baseline for how much resources your game is going to use in terms of CPU, GPU, memory, and physics simulations on the typical computer. That way, you know how much resources you can devote to optional fluff like "bedsheet deformation" and other nice background touches that have no other impact on the game itself, and might be turned off on lower-end machines.

The fact that they have a "cloth simulation" specialist working on rewriting the engine to do "bedsheet deformation" is a sign that they hired this person way too early, and now they're giving them busy work because it would look very bad to dismiss them so early, especially when CIG is looking to hire hundreds of more artists. Normal large game studios can afford to have a "cloth simulation" specialist on staff because they always have multiple games in production at various stages of development. There will always be work for them to do. Star Citizen has one game that's been split into two: Star Citizen, and its introductory campaign.

 

[AkenBosch]

Flags and capes with fixed points are generally stateless. A sheet you can move from point A to point B in a game you can save need a state.

In the context of any reasonable development process of such a complex software project, this whole techno-babble nitpicking about a silly, as much as useless, detail as this, is the epitome of utter lunacy. There's no getting around this, there's no excuse of "it will help future development" or other such apology of resource-wasting. This is "barman AI" level of apology of the unexcusable, straight to the podium with drink in a glass physics and poop mechanics.

 

[ZeeWolf]

This work is currently underway and, if successful, will allow the AI to deform their sheets when entering, exiting, or sleeping inside them. This is a challenging assignment and expands the complexity of the feature. For example, what happens to the sheets if the AI needs to exit the bed in an emergency?

exclusive wip never been done before screenshot:

 

[kilvenny]

Bedsheet tech is in the roadmap because it is vitally important to the SC experience. The bedsheet tech is a key building block to improving the living quarters experience. Coming next will be a TV screen, so you can lie in bed and watch the back catalog of SC videos interspersed with ship commercials, whilst simultaneously marvelling how the sheet deforms over time. Additional content to be added, featuring how to avoid a 30K and why I left ED to become a Citizen?

 

[Old Duck]

And that’s why this project is so wasteful with other people's money.

I don't understand this argument. I guess it makes sense if you're buying stock rather than a product, but when I buy a car for example, I don't concern myself with how the factory divided my payment among its employees.

Don't get me wrong, I totally get the argument "This feature is a waste of time" and "I so much rather they focused on this other thing instead". Heck, I've written entire books (if you combine all my posts over the years) making these arguments about Elite Dangerous. But that's why I didn't buy Odyssey, and if I did, that waste of money would be on me.

Disclaimer - I am not nor ever have been a Kickstarter backer, so maybe that's why I'm left confused by your statement..

 

[AkenBosch]

I don't understand this argument. I guess it makes sense if you're buying stock rather than a product, but when I buy a car for example, I don't concern myself with how the factory divided my payment among its employees.

Don't get me wrong, I totally get the argument "This feature is a waste of time" and "I so much rather they focused on this other thing instead". Heck, I've written entire books (if you combine all my posts over the years) making these arguments about Elite Dangerous. But that's why I didn't buy Odyssey, and if I did, that waste of money would be on me.

Disclaimer - I am not nor ever have been a Kickstarter backer, so maybe that's why I'm left confused by your statement..

You are not buying a car, you are buying pics of a car to fund the development of a car. After ten years with no car in sight, they are informing you on how they are fully committed on researching and developing the technology to produce the best sound-dampened cupholder ever, that might or might not eventually end up featured in said car, unless it gets refactored for the best alcantara-covered sun shades ever a couple years later. Twelve generations of this whole SC thread in a nutshell.

But the point really is, you are not buying a produced product, you are "funding" its production. You have to be fully concerned of how and where they are spending your money.

 

[LittleAnt]

And that’s why this project is so wasteful with other people's money. You don’t hire a specialist in “cloth simulations” during the pre-alpha phase of production, when you don’t even have your core technologies finalized, let alone your main game loops up and running. Especially if you're using an engine that already does 90% of what you want to do out of the box.

First, I don't think the guy working on bedsheet deformation is a "cloth simulations" specialist. He certainly had worked on other subjects, perhaps some of them vital for the project and been delivered and finalized in SQ42. We have absolutly no idea of what this guy was doing before this task. You talk about him like he was hired 10 years ago only to work on clothes, do you have secret infos about him ? And more importantly, you talk about 1 (perhaps 2) guys in a team of hundred of developers. Do you know how many devs are assigned to Server Meshing, Entity graph or work on the grid system ? And you talk about 1 dev as if he will suck the ressource of the whole project. Realize the size of the project to put the value of ONE dev in perspective. 1 guy when you have 2 devs is a lot. 1 guy when you have 150 devs...

Second, you confuse SC with SQ42. You don't know the state of the core technologies needed to finalize SQ42. How much of those tech are finalized for SQ42 ? 10% ? 50% ? 90 %. If you know, please give us a list of what is missing for SQ42, it will be greatly appreciated here.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Is not so much the bedsheet crumpling. That is silly, useless stuff. It's planning it for "NPC" which makes me think they are taking the micky out of the gullibers. No matter how stupid it is what CIG puts out - there are always "fans" who go the distance to push the limits if moronity.

 

[LittleAnt]

You are not buying a car, you are buying pics of a car to fund the development of a car.

A little more than a pic as I can actually play inside my car and use it like a normal car (while some other companies just teleport you on the seat and glue you on it).

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I don't understand this argument. I guess it makes sense if you're buying stock rather than a product, but when I buy a car for example, I don't concern myself with how the factory divided my payment among its employees.

Don't get me wrong, I totally get the argument "This feature is a waste of time" and "I so much rather they focused on this other thing instead". Heck, I've written entire books (if you combine all my posts over the years) making these arguments about Elite Dangerous. But that's why I didn't buy Odyssey, and if I did, that waste of money would be on me.

Disclaimer - I am not nor ever have been a Kickstarter backer, so maybe that's why I'm left confused by your statement..

There is no car. Just lies and broken promises about a faraway delivery of a car. In between people argue about the definiton of car and after a while many dont even recognise what a proper car is anymore

 

[Viajero]

I don't understand this argument. I guess it makes sense if you're buying stock rather than a product, but when I buy a car for example, I don't concern myself with how the factory divided my payment among its employees.

Don't get me wrong, I totally get the argument "This feature is a waste of time" and "I so much rather they focused on this other thing instead". Heck, I've written entire books (if you combine all my posts over the years) making these arguments about Elite Dangerous. But that's why I didn't buy Odyssey, and if I did, that waste of money would be on me.

Disclaimer - I am not nor ever have been a Kickstarter backer, so maybe that's why I'm left confused by your statement..

Unless CIG confirms explicitly they have released SC this is still, 10+ years on, a crowdfunded project. As such CIG still has a fundamental obligation to be a good stewart of backers money and avoid wastage. A company developing a product on their own dime can do whatever they like, not the case for CIG though.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Unless CIG confirms explicitly they have released SC this is still, 10+ years on, a crowdfunded project. As such CIG still has a fundamental obligation to be a good stewart of backers money and avoid wastage. A company developing a product on their own dime can do whatever they like, not the case for CIG though.

crowd fundung is inly a fraction of SC time at market and fraction of money raken in. The bulk has been sales of an early access of a buggy game and a good number of non deliveries of items been sold.

 

[Ronzer]

No I don't, that sort of stuff just doesn't belong there, and you know how I know? Because everyone was laughing out loud when they saw it, it just doesn't belong in any reporting anywhere, no game report anywhere has ever included things like that because that's silly.

The only reason they're adding it to some list is to laugh at folks who support the game. They could add anything to that list and it'll be praised by folks supporting SC, and they get the bonus of using it as an excuse of why it's not finished. Hmm lets see, I'd like it so if I boot up a gaming device in SC, I can play an old game of space invaders. That'd be very good for immersion. Add it to the list, CR!

It's more his "scorned lover" attitude he had when he left that abrades. Which is why I can't wait for him to try to start a special relationship with Roberts. The 3-way with Sandi will be interesting.

It's not that he left, it's that he made some post which was a serious attempt at taking as many folks as he could with him. I haven't watched much of his stuff but from what I saw, it seemed like he is a fairly positive person, but something in those posts just screamed disgruntled employee. I hope Im wrong about that. Hearing of his joys in SC, I wonder if he's tried any other games. He might like MSFS or X4 or Civ 6 or ...oh heck, there's lots. GTA? Oh well, he'll be back with Elite one day.

4 things :

• bedsheet deformation is for the solo game SQ42. So bedsheet deformation will be used in some very specific known places with constraint environnement. Also, developping bedsheet deformation is not a guarantee that itwill make it to the release. If it's too taxing, it will be abandonned.
• CR is a very cinematic guy. He wants the wow factor in SQ42 nd you get the wow factor with this sort of tech.
• CIG have a big budget, a lot of devs and no deadline. So assigning 1 or 2 guys to a new tech to see what the outcome could be can be really profitable if the outcome is good.
• CIG is developping tech and tools for it's engine that will be used for SQ42 sequels. Having a sheet deformation tech addd to the value of the engine.

CIG is developing so much stuff, their biggest problem is choosing what to start with. Someone muttered "bedsheets" in a meeting, and CR thought it was his inner voice, and bam, that's where they've started from. Let it be known development for SC SQ42 actual, started in 2022 with bedsheets that dont ruin the immersion. Noone can stand it when you sit on a bed, in a game, and the sheets dont even move, right? How dare they call that immersive!
I'd be wowed if they completed 1 star system. Seriously, thats where the bar is. Actually, even if they said what percentage of completion that system is at right now, would be a big wow moment and I'd be happy. If they have done that already, can someone say if they're 80% complete the current system? 82%? hmmm 40%? Errr 10%? I'll take any number, and I'll give a big fat Wow.

 

[Old Duck]

You are not buying a car, you are buying pics of a car to fund the development of a car. After ten years with no car in sight, they are informing you on how they are fully committed on researching and developing the technology to produce the best sound-dampened cupholder ever, that might or might not eventually end up featured in said car, unless it gets refactored for the best alcantara-covered sun shades ever a couple years later. Twelve generations of this whole SC thread in a nutshell.

But the point really is, you are not buying a produced product, you are "funding" its production. You have to be fully concerned of how and where they are spending your money.

Okay, sure. Except that "you" is YOU, it's definitely not me. If I buy Star Citizen, it will be for what it is right now, not what it's promised to be (though I like that the game at least has some sort of vision for the future, unlike some other space game I won't mention). David Braben taught me this lesson. This is one of the reasons I haven't bought Star Citizen yet, because the verdict is still out regarding if I'll get my money's worth of entertainment out of it before hitting all the "Are you kidding me?" walls. Same goes for Odyssey and the latest X4 DLC. Heck, had I known MSFS wasn't a finished product when I bought it, I would have waited on that as well. #regret

When talking about CIG wasting other people's money, or Chris Roberts being a grifter, the first thing that comes to mind is a quote from Obi Wan: “Who is more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?”

 

[AkenBosch]

A little more than a pic as I can actually play inside my car and use it like a normal car (while some other companies just teleport you on the seat and glue you on it).

Nice that you try to play the whataboutery card, it doesn't work with me. We are talking SC here, stick to that or go talk about Elite's ship interiors and (cheap) teleportation in the 100s threads where it's relevant. Strangely enough though, we never saw you there .

You are not playing inside your car, and it doesn't work like a normal car, otherwise it would have been a complete, released car. They are letting you playing with the balsa and cardboard mockup of your car: it has roughly the same shape (subject to change), sometimes it loses bits that get eventually replaced by different ones, it's not robust enough to support the weight of whatever they are wanting to add inside, the marine outboard engine they are building it around gives up completely from time to time, sometimes the chassis will shatter making you fall on the road while it keeps rolling forward, and heavy winds pose a serious risk if it being carried away.

Yes, you can still have plenty of fun with it when it keeps in one piece, and drive it around bends for hours on end with great enjoyment, but don't try to pass it for an actual production car, no one seeing it from the outside is that stupid. Do like the good Mole here, he's fully aware he's having fun with the balsa mockup of a car, because it can actually be lots of fun, just don't pretend they have any interest in providing you the actual one, until you are happy to throw them money to keep refactoring cupholders and leather trimmings.

 

[Viajero]

crowd fundung is inly a fraction of SC time at market and fraction of money raken in. The bulk has been sales of an early access of a buggy game and a good number of non deliveries of items been sold.

I would not necessarily disagree, but it seems the market at large has not caught on yet that SC may in fact be already released (in EA). That not only includes game press and reviews but also many backers probably who still think they are backing or “funding”.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I would not necessarily disagree, but it seems the market at large has not caught on yet that SC may in fact be already released (in EA). That not only includes game press and reviews but also many backers probably.

The "market" is a self-marketing initiative and CIG is happy to keep it as far from public as they can. Most companies would try to improve their market penetration by going to different channels. But I think CIG doesn't want that exposure. Coasting the border between fraud and broken contract is easier when as few as possible have a look.
It is far easier to fool the gullibers in the safety of a walled garden that also serves as an ideal echo chamber.

 

[AkenBosch]

Okay, sure. Except that "you" is YOU, it's definitely not me.

What?

It's you who mentioned not understanding a given concept, another people got in the discussion explaining the concept with an analogy. There's no actual you or me, have you ever had a speculative conversation? Do you always take people that literal? I actually don't care the slightest about what you (as in "you" this time) would do, just as I don't expect you to care about me or anyone else.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I don't understand this argument. I guess it makes sense if you're buying stock rather than a product, but when I buy a car for example, I don't concern myself with how the factory divided my payment among its employees.

Don't get me wrong, I totally get the argument "This feature is a waste of time" and "I so much rather they focused on this other thing instead". Heck, I've written entire books (if you combine all my posts over the years) making these arguments about Elite Dangerous. But that's why I didn't buy Odyssey, and if I did, that waste of money would be on me.

Disclaimer - I am not nor ever have been a Kickstarter backer, so maybe that's why I'm left confused by your statement..

This project continues to claim it is being crowd funded. Players are not "customers" but "backers." When someone spends some money on ship X, it isn't a "purchase," but a "pledge." Which means, that the money being spent is not out of the pockets of Chris Roberts. It also means that the money being spent is not out of the coffers of Cloud Imperium Games, or a game publisher. It means that it CIG is being contracted by ordinary people like you or me to build this game. As such, it's expected that the creative behind the project (in this case Chris Roberts) be a good steward of other people's money.

In normal crowd funded projects, the creative behind the project is expected to be paid last, out of the difference between how much was funded, and how much it took to deliver the product. Depending upon the nature of the product, the creative earning a living wage during production is normal, but frequently they hire other people to do the work for them. If the creative underestimated production costs, the creative is expected to make up the difference, not their backers. There are numerous Kickstarter projects where the creative bankrupted themselves to fulfil their promises to their backers, but few just throw up their hands saying "Oops! My bad!" and walk away, with the backers get nothing.

One particular Kickstarted project I backed I had written off as latter category, after a not-uncommon tale of woe regarding dishonest printers, unexpected expenses, and a long period of silence after a vague promise that they'll "find the money somehow." Years later, I got a mysterious package in the mail, which contained, much to my surprise, the graphic novel I had backed all those years ago, a bunch of goodies, and a letter apologizing on how long it took for them to get this into my hands. The creative behind the project had gotten rather... creative when it came to finding the money.

Chris Roberts, on the other hand, isn't a good steward of other people's money. Despite claiming he needed only half a million dollars to flesh out his game, which he also claimed was nearly ready for alpha testing, and had raised over four times that, he's continued to ask for other people's money, to the tune of half a billion dollars. The game was to be released in 2014, but we're here in 2022 with the game no closer to release than it was in 2012.

And despite the expectation that he would profit last, as the creative behind this crowd funded project, he's ensured that he's being paid first... along with his brother, his (once secret) wife, and his good friend and longtime business partner (typically referred to as "The Roberts Clan"). And he's not paying himself or his clan living wages either. He is, according to the Forbes article, being "compensated like a typical C-suite game executive." And IIRC, at least one of the many A-list actors he hired to do voice acting for Squadron 42 (and mocap at a custom built capture studio in his LA studio, which later needed to be redone, in London, at Andy Serkis' Imaginarium) complained that Sandi Gardiner got paid more than he did!

Despite promises of transparency, CIG's corporate structure consists of about two dozen shell companies, only one of which has ever had a proper detailing of income and expenses, the UK Branch of CIG. If these filing, required by UK law, are to be believed, the Roberts Clan has collectively siphoned off nearly 10% of CIG-UK's earnings through various means, with last year being the most brazen when they paid themselves over one million pounds ($1.25 million) in dividends... minus the 10% share that went to Calders, of course. And this from a crowd funded project that is eight years late in delivering upon its promises and counting.

Hope this clears things up.