Nothing new, but this Odyssey VR implementation is beyond frustrating

[moogleslam]

I've spent a few hours over the last two days trying out Odyssey for the first time. I realize I'm way late to the game, but that's because of this:

Haven't bought Odyssey, and won't until it gets proper VR support.

Well, my boycott is unintentionally over. My son bought me it as a surprise birthday gift. Frontier didn't deserve his money, but I'll try it out later tonight

So first of all, the good. There's a lot of things in Odyssey that are really nice before even getting to the on-foot stuff. New interface, new textures, lighting, animations for things like engaging FSD/witch space, planetary surfaces, partial atmospheres, etc. All of that probably should have been a free update, but at the same time, I'd have been willing to pay the Odyssey price to have it for everything in the Ship and SRV that's impacted by it. There's more than I thought.

The on-foot stuff, given my limited play time of it so far, actually seems really cool in a vacuum. The graphics are a mix of nice, outdated, and functional, but I really have no issue with any of that. The new environments, weapons, tools, missions, NPC, etc., are all fascinating to me. I still have a lot to learn about how to best execute the new missions, not to mention engineering and such.

I tried the on-foot training mission that I was immediately thrown into with the virtual monitor in my VR headset. It probably worked a little better than I expected, but was far from ideal, and a huge immersion breaker, not to mention if I was forced into pancake mode in VR, I might as well play pancake mode on my monitor for the better resolution. I had to find a solution. And the problem arrives because there is no solution for VR players.

• Option 1: Play pancake mode for everything.
• Option 2: Proper VR for ship/SRV, and virtual monitor VR for on-foot.
• Option 3: Restart the game each time I need to switch between ship/SRV and on-foot.

If you're a monitor only player, and Option 1 is the only way you'd play it anyway, I'm sure everything is great. I'm almost jealous of that experience.

But for a VR player, which I am, and which is the main thing that makes ED so great for me, I can't even decide what is worse, Option 2 or 3. They're both completely garbage, and leave me so frustrated, I just want to get away from the game, instead of learning about all the new things that otherwise have me really excited.

How are we still here almost a year after release? VR motion controllers would be nice, but I'm sure we'd all settle for just the continuity of the VR experience while on-foot with existing input devices for now. I don't even see why this is complicated. Really, please tell me why it is? ED & Horizons are one of the best VR implementations and experiences that exist, but when you throw Odyssey into that package, it's just so utterly tarnished and frustrating. What's the roadmap for this being properly implemented, or is it just never going to happen?

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

How are we still here almost a year after release?

either Frontier doesn't care, can't do it or both. Dunno what else to add tbh its as simple as that

Happy to change my point of view when there is evidence to the contrary. For what its worth I opted for Option 1, decided the Odyssey content wasn't up to the pass and put Elite back into hibernation.

 

[GR00V3R]

I share this pain. Given the VR support while flying, ED: ODYSSEY is so close to greatness, if only it had a proper VR implementation for on-foot.

I could easily live with an implementation that had a "time out" feature while the player transitioned from his or her seated environment to a standing or room-scale environment. A "change now"-style prompt or something as you're exiting or entering your ship would be fine—or, better yet, include walking through your ship to the pilot's seat, and then transition upon reaching the seat.

Dear Devs: Imagine the awesomeness of "walking" up the ramp to enter your ship, navigating its corridors to reach the bridge/cockpit, and then taking your seat—with a "change to your seated experience now" prompt. THAT WOULD BE AMAZING.

And, by the way, Devs, response to this thread would be very much appreciated. Knowledge of your plans, even more so.

 

[Widrow]

I went for option 3 - decide what game to play and dress accordingly - On another thread I have suggested that a crowdfunded project should be looked at where VR users contribute to bring their wishes to reality - FDev defines the spec/functionality improvements, allocates a team so that current developments are not hindered and we see if there is enough interest to fund the job.

I would have thought it was worth a punt.

 

[ZZZRonin]

(Sorry for mistakes) This company is so ......., sorry but it's true, you can already use a camera to be able to view in 3D VR while on foot, so the real thing you need to do is to enable VR with HUD (your engine is already designed for that), it will work without any "problem" in 1st person. Yes there will be an impact on performance, some players may have symptom problem (so give us a choice). Stop trying to add anything in your game and for one time only do what players needs : This game is still one of the best to be played in VR, every VR owners buyed your game exactly for that. It's not time to change this in the middle of this game life. You already said before that development will be for 10 years, always adding new stuffs, you never said without VR. Since the release of Odyssey (i didn buy it), I simply stop playing after more than 600 hours just because of that (was playing with Oculus DK2, then CV1 and Rift-S). I'm sure that I'm not the only one... but you don't care.

 

[Distant Carrier]

Hey, I love this, and I have thoughts that may be unpopular here.

Fdev, just like any house, has to make budget decisions. Those decisions must be compatible with the world that is if Fdev wishes to survive. It's a hostile, scary place for the time being, and may that improve before the true consequences begin. Also, this house only stands because people decide to come in and spend money on crap. So, in deciding the course of an insanely expensive and difficult to produce product there are probably only a select few people who can pull that trigger well.

If I was a select few person with little to *no understanding of VR and I happened to allow myself to come across the vitriol associated with necessary decisions already made to manage a much wider gamut of the house, my instantaneous response would be to say Nope and then carry that flavor through my decision making process, hopefully not forever.

We shoot ourselves, and everyone else given the stage that VR development is in, in the foot by castigating the company who has managed to provide a great product against stupidly robust headwind. The endlessly repeated and withering criticisms associated with VR nearly across the board are trash, although I think this post is thoughtful and not terrible with the exception of the use of the term Pancake Mode. The full gaming market far outweighs the petty language of an absolutely tiny minority, and chuckles at it probably, but certainly takes the entire conversation less seriously when it arises.

Uh, you catch more flies with honey - and the right flies too as opposed to obnoxiously buzzing flies that will bite you as soon as look at one of your products; absolutely nobody wants to deal with a crowd like that.

Cheers to you, and congratulations on your new VR! Truly, children know the future because they are the future.

*edit of my typo, how embarrassing

 

[silence please]

• Option 1: Play pancake mode for everything.
• Option 2: Proper VR for ship/SRV, and virtual monitor VR for on-foot.
• Option 3: Restart the game each time I need to switch between ship/SRV and on-foot.

Ya wanna read something even more frustrating? The game engine is capable of switching between screen and VR modes on the fly. BUT you have to faff with the menus (no hotkey) and it uses the same graphics settings for both modes.

 

[Bantha]

• Option 1: Play pancake mode for everything.
• Option 2: Proper VR for ship/SRV, and virtual monitor VR for on-foot.
• Option 3: Restart the game each time I need to switch between ship/SRV and on-foot.

Option 1 is not an option, it just isn’t. Why deprive yourself of the magic of VR when flying or SRVing. Don’t bite your nose off to spite your face.

I went Option 2 (with a caveat - see below). You get used to it. No, of course it’s not good enough, but you do get used to it.

There’s other choices too though…

Option 2.1 Same as option 2, but go into camera mode straight away and you then have VR for space legs. Unfortunately you can’t interact with anything, nor see how much battery life you have left, but if you’re just walking around a little, enjoying the view, this works.

Option 4. Take your headset off when you disembark and play in pancake on your monitor for space legs.

 

[Wildcat67]

I'm option 2 as well, it's more immersive for me than getting out of VR. But I still can't believe FDev still haven't added a basic VR view for on-foot stuff. It would address the criticism that Odyssey has given up on VR support - summer intern project!?

 

[Arioch]

The key-combo camera glitch that used to exist early in Odyssey’s release popped you straight into your CMDRs eye view and you could do things like look down to see your feet leaving prints on alien ground. If FDev had’ve got rid of the head model (so the helmet bits didn’t encroach into our view) then I’d have been quite happy with that.

I think it’s fairly sad that the bugged glitch version of the camera suite was in some ways better than what we have now (and are probably stuck with).

 

[Coppermine]

If you just want to walk about in VR, you can, and you have been able to from Odyssy's release via the camera suite. I like it, it's still great. But I don't go in for the on foot missions myself. So I'm happy with it. No criticisms here.

 

[Distant Carrier]

ED & Horizons are one of the best VR implementations and experiences that exist

was in some ways better than what we have now (and are probably stuck with)

I want to say that the first is not true in my experience, and the second probably isn't either based on my instincts. I'm new to VR in this game, and to be honest the language surrounding VR ED is way different than the actual experience. It looks pretty good, once you get it working, but the overall experience you get is that this was a showpiece technology incorporated in a technically successfully manner over a very short time period.

The setup, the launch complectoprocess associated with switching modes, and especially the documentation are actually terrible. Also, all the items that are literally continuously complained about by VR players are terrible I imagine, but I'm not aware of what's been going on in here for the past few years. The VR integration into the game itself is far, far from the best implementation or experience that exists - this is a game world presented in VR, not a VR game by any stretch of the imagination. If you don't realize this, check out any number of VR games - I would recommend VTOL VR for us here. A simple game which is nearly perfect - just like the first arcade cabinets of ancient times. Elite is impressive for what it is and not for what it isn't: instead of a misperception or delusional view here we have a simple and persistent mischaracterization of the VR elements of the game.


From what I can see, VR in ED feels like a tech demonstrator or a showcase feature. The plan may have been to get a VR mode into the game because the game is totally gorgeous, and was imagined to be totally amazing in a VR headset. And that talks a lot to the second point - there probably never were plans to develop an actual VR client mode:

1.) First, Why? The idea and enthusiasm was to fly around within the reality created by the Stellar Forge component of the Cobra platform in VR. Nailed. Also, it should be added that Cobra and the Stellar Forge were created and are maintained in-house, an astonishing feat given the length of time this solution has survived and thrived despite Frontier growing into a big deal. This is deserving of support and acclaim really, and goes a long way toward informing about the core aspirations of the house.

2.) Scope of activity. There are pronounced differences between forging VR display ports for existing games and creating new VR interfaces for existing games, and let the record show the abysmal few efforts existing as finished concepts in this regard; Bethesda and others... At the very least these two routes involved totally different development commitments.

I think the platform is probably well suited to the task, but it may not be, and who really knows what is involved. Odyssey was difficult to create I guess, but it is now running around happy in the wild. My fingers are crossed that this makes a better case for other difficult paths, like VR.

So, do these observations imply that VR will never, ever be revisted in the future? These devs, these few devs, have been maybe 'the' sole voice in the wilderness forwarding the VR dawn by virtue of their spectacular world presence alone. How many people now own a high end VR headpiece and gear specifically due to a (Good) decision made years ago to get VR into this game?


The community narrative that has developed around the feature is bad, in my experience. Frontier can at-will decide to relight the VR banner by focusing effort on fleshing out the nascent demonstrator tech already present: a trivial planning exercise that would not be trivial to pursue. What might help them decide on when or if to prime and pull that trigger? The VR market, which is becoming a force of its own accord (and big cheers to that), and the tone and attitude and enthusiasm of the ED VR community in chorus with the full ED community.

Lately I would hate to be the person who has to parse community sentiment for presentation, although it seems to be improving as this hugely complex vision of "running around with feet" is getting better all the time through Odyssey functionality. Nobody knows what is next, but the next logical step, based on the fact that Odyssey even exists, is to... do something else that might be hard to do, and might be a mess for a while, and might require morale boosts and continuing financial support from the hordes of player who really love this game.


Don't be the person in the fine dining restaurant who totally loves the food but is total trash to the servers, hosts and everyone else who conjures that food for them. That kind is not welcome in any part of this universe, and is only tolerated on Earth due to a bizarre parody of high life that values and pursues little slips of paper with scribbles on them. Yes, don't be that, instead be those people that fly around in dream galaxies like curious and playful children, those are the people the universe totally adores. "Eat this and shut up" is my favorite and best fancy restaurant line ever received, and we should at least pretend to trust those who make magic to maybe pull it off again.

Edit: so this is what each Elite: Dangerous acronym looks like: E... hi five! I've replaced them all with "ED" ..the post is less exciting, but makes more sense. The opposite of my personality really

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

I went Option 2 (with a caveat - see below). You get used to it. No, of course it’s not good enough, but you do get used to it.

It just doesn't work for me, I've tried but its not happening.

I'm not criticizing your decision though what work for you works... the problem I have is having experienced HL:Alyx and 'Into the Radius' and Fallout4 VR first person projected view just doesn't work in VR its a no go.

Frontier used VR as a marketing tool, got it up and running to a good standard and then dropped it faster than Boris Johnson losing his wine bottle at a Peppa Pig convention.

The problem Elite has is its CEO having old manZ thinking, being risk adverse. Frontier could do a ton of stuff to Elite but they won't because they are afraid to sell it to their shareholders without guaranteed returns. Build a quality product with your customers in mind and the revenue starts to come in...

 

[Bantha]

It just doesn't work for me, I've tried but its not happening.

Fair enough, I get that.
It’s a real shame that space legs hasn’t gone VR, especially when you consider you can kind of implement it yourself in camera mode. It can’t be that big of a jump from there can it?!
But, unfortunately, I can’t see it ever being developed…

 

[Rocksteady2090]

I would have love just a proper 3d view and the current control schemes.
I currently went with option 4 and that's just not to play Odyssey

 

[Red Rocket]

.

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

Don't be the person in the fine dining restaurant who totally loves the food but is total trash to the servers, hosts and everyone else who conjures that food for them.

The food is rubbish, the service sloppy and I'm still waiting for what I actually ordered to be served.

 

[Distant Carrier]

The food is rubbish, the service sloppy and I'm still waiting for what I actually ordered to be served.

I love being quoted, and since you've tapped me on the shoulder I'll try and help.

I won't comment to your taste in food or the quality of that taste, or to the demands or discreet standards you place on the service of food to your person (in this case service of a very elaborate dish prepared by hundreds and priced somewhere around £24.99), and I certainly won't fault your argument that you haven't gotten what you imagine you ordered, or what you expected as a customer wholly interested in a very labor intensive confection associated with the main course and offered at no charge.

There is a solution though, happily, and I'll serve it to you freely like a small mint on a plastic bill tray:

I currently went with option 4 and that's just not to play Odyssey

Anyway, it's no business of mine what you do with your time, but it seems it could be better spent learning how to implement VR and VR expansions into an existing release. Perhaps it would make you happier with having something on the plate, you know, as opposed to having absolutely nothing.

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

I love being quoted, and since you've tapped me on the shoulder I'll try and help.

I won't comment to your taste in food or the quality of that taste, or to the demands or discreet standards you place on the service of food to your person (in this case service of a very elaborate dish prepared by hundreds and priced somewhere around £24.99), and I certainly won't fault your argument that you haven't gotten what you imagine you ordered, or what you expected as a customer wholly interested in a very labor intensive confection associated with the main course and offered at no charge.

There is a solution though, happily, and I'll serve it to you freely like a small mint on a plastic bill tray:



Anyway, it's no business of mine what you do with your time, but it seems it could be better spent learning how to implement VR and VR expansions into an existing release. Perhaps it would make you happier with having something on the plate, you know, as opposed to having absolutely nothing.

I bought it on the back of a promise to deliver fully integrated VR at a later date. They backed out of this promise. As a paying customer I will continue to complain. You will either have to grow accustomed to my genuine complaints or just don't bother to read them.

 

[Drannon]

FDev did renege on several very affirmative statements then back-pedaled into a "maybe" after community and critic complaints. Pretending that never happened and rolling over when developers change their minds to cut time and resources is unhealthy behavior as a consumer.

Fact is, we've already bought ED and Odyssey, which throws speaking with our wallets out the window unless you planned on diving heavily in the Arx store. Their next source of reliable income is the next expansion but what then? More promised features that get cut right before release? Will it also be unacceptable to complain then?

Most of the OG devs who built and improved on the Cobra engine have moved on and if the current lineup are struggling to keep it afloat then they need to swallow their pride, outsource and get it done. ED is the game that put them on the map in order for them to score exclusive IPs and licensing and I get that's where a majority of their revenue comes from now, but that doesn't excuse shoddy workmanship, treating VR as a one-off gimmick and a relatively unoptimized game in 2022.