General Why I think Fleet carrier upkeep should be removed.

[Greasetrap42]

The OP suggestion allows players to purchase the entire set of services and skip 1.875 1.822 billion per year.

A carrier with all services added is only 1.75 billion over base price. Less than the upkeep cost they can now skip.

 

[Greasetrap42]

while barely scraping over 1b/year, and carrying a host of useless services, including outfitting and secure warehouse(neither of which I've seen on more than 1-2 carriers, having docked at hundreds), is a dramatical misrepresentation of reality.

Better look at the picture again. 1billion cost with No wharehouse. No outfitting.

Dramatic misrepresentation? Not even including any carrier jumps.

 

[metatheurgist]

The maintenance fee is trivial. Right now you can cover it by doing 3 ground CZs a week. Which are loads of fun so it's not even a chore, takes less than an a couple of hours, even less if you're competent, unlike me. Also fills out your weekly arx at the same time.

 

[Greasetrap42]

The maintenance fee is trivial.

It is easy for players that play regularly. And its not really that hard to come up with 1-2 billion to cover the cost in advance (for players that don't play on a regular schedule). And I'm not complaining at all. I can do it, others can too.

I am pointing out that the OPs original post (the OP's idea is now morphing) does nothing except make carriers cheeper.

 

[DemiserofD]

Better look at the picture again. 1billion cost with No wharehouse. No outfitting.

Dramatic misrepresentation? Not even including any carrier jumps.

Bah, wasn't used to your tool there, sorry about that. But honestly, having the shipyard, of all features, active, is not precisely any better. I think my point stands.

Carrier jumps will typically save players money, rather than cost it; shipping my Cutter 100 light years costs like 15m and takes an hour, but jumping my carrier costs ~1.5m and takes 15 minutes.

 

[LifesAJourney]

That's a good point & not really something that needs to be discouraged, but would also be easily exploitable by creating or joining a squadron pledged to a local faction.

Sure. But that's exactly the idea. To give another meaning to squadrons.

And if you can create a single-Cmdr squadron and be effective enough to push yourself into, say, Leesti, your parking fee discount is very, very well deserved.

 

[LumpTheNoLeggedDog]

Sure. But that's exactly the idea. To give another meaning to squadrons.

And if you can create a single-Cmdr squadron and be effective enough to push yourself into, say, Leesti, your parking fee discount is very, very well deserved.

Allowing local factions a free parking would be wrong. Cmdrs would clogged their faction systems with their own FCs.

Edit: unless we are talking about Native factions.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Bah, wasn't used to your tool there, sorry about that. But honestly, having the shipyard, of all features, active, is not precisely any better. I think my point stands.

The only thing you have successfully established is removing carrier upkeep costs makes owning a carrier cheaper enabling more players that can barely afford it make the purchase with additional services. It simply lowers the cost of having one, that's it. For people who want the game made easier. Established players that can afford the carrier have no issue with the existing upkeep costs.

The idea of additional weekly carrier costs in the form of parking fees has been floated in this thread. Good idea, but should not be confused with the OP's desire (and the point of this thread, and the title of this thread) of removing weekly upkeep costs.

 

[DemiserofD]

It simply lowers the cost of having one, that's it. For people who want the game made easier.

Again, 3 minutes a week of effort for 98% of carriers is trivial, and only serves as an annoyance factor.

 

[LumpTheNoLeggedDog]

Anyone playtime shouldn't be even a factor, why it is important that someone have 4 FCs and only plays couple of hrs a week ?
Play more or if you can't afford it and don't play this game enough, sell your FCs.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Again, 3 minutes a week of effort for 98% of carriers is trivial, and only serves as an annoyance factor.

Your made-up claims (not necessarily true):
a) Upkeep costs for 98% of carriers is trivial.
b) The vast majority of carriers run with around 10m/week upkeep(or less), or closer to 500m/year.

But: The one-time cost of services isn't very much compared to the cost of the carrier. All services combined costs less than one-year of the upkeep costs.

Soooo.... why are 98% of the carriers equipped with only a few of the services? If the costs are trivial... then why....


...why doesn't 98% of the carriers have have a redemption office, shipyard, and concourse bar?
.

 

[DemiserofD]

Your made-up claims (not necessarily true):
a) Upkeep costs for 98% of carriers is trivial.
b) The vast majority of carriers run with around 10m/week upkeep(or less), or closer to 500m/year.

But: The one-time cost of services isn't very much compared to the cost of the carrier. All services combined costs less than one-year of the upkeep costs.

Soooo.... why are 98% of the carriers equipped with only a few of the services? If the costs are trivial... then why....


...why doesn't 98% of the carriers have have a redemption office, shipyard, and concourse bar?
.

Again, feel free to take a survey of carriers. I have; In my experience, the vast majority of them are completely inactive, with most of their services and disabled. If the goal of Carrier upkeep is to remove clutter, then it is only achieving the exact opposite of that goal.

As for why players don't take those services, Because they have no use for them? Taking those Services actively reduces the utility of carriers for the majority of players. Personally, the cost of the services had absolutely nothing to do with it, but the space requirements absolutely were relevant.

 

[Greasetrap42]

As for why players don't take those services, Because they have no use for them? Taking those Services actively reduces the utility of carriers for the majority of players. Personally, the cost of the services had absolutely nothing to do with it, but the space requirements absolutely were relevant.

Ya you're really reaching now. 98% of fleet carrier owners don't have or want any but the most basic services? Ya.... whatever. /s

 

[DemiserofD]

Ya you're really reaching now. 98% of fleet carrier owners don't have or want any but the most basic services? Ya.... whatever. /s

...yes? I would support that statement completely. Most players do not need or have anything but cargo storage and their own ship storage. MAYBE a redemption office.

Seriously, go fly around and look.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Seriously, go fly around and look.

Don't need to. I know how to use INARA. What you are describing is a lack of value for the cost. Obviously pioneer supplies has very low value. And the concourse bar. They are money sinks when there isn't much other use for credits. But if they were free as per your suggestion. Well then a different story. Suddenly everybody has a concourse bar.

 

[DemiserofD]

Don't need to. I know how to use INARA. What you are describing is a lack of value for the cost. Obviously pioneer supplies has very low value. And the concourse bar. They are money sinks when there isn't much other use for credits. But if they were free as per your suggestion. Well then a different story. Suddenly everybody has a concourse bar.

Inara isn't a very complete picture, tbh. It only includes details from carriers that have been docked at by someone who has updates enabled, and there are huge numbers of carriers where docking isn't even possible due to restrictions. I'd be surprised if even half of all existing fleet carriers have valid info on there. Heck, even a quarter; even if someone did dock at one, there's a very high probability the owner has since sold off or suspended their services. My carrier's info hasn't been updated since 2021, and it actually allows docking and has active services!

Help me understand the logic, here: The purpose of upkeep is to keep down Fleet Carrier clutter, right? Abandoned and useless carriers will be removed from the game.

Only, because upkeep exists, players disable their services. This reduces the upkeep down to trivial levels, becoming more of an annoyance to other players than to the owner.

This means that the carriers which are pruned first are, instead, the useful carriers, leaving only the useless carriers behind.

Because most carriers are useless, it becomes difficult to find useful ones, and far easier to just use stations instead. This even further diminishes the usefulness of having a service-active carrier, encouraging even more people to disable their services. I have literally checked 5+ carriers in a row and all have either been docking limited or completely disabled on multiple occasions.

So the end result is that all carriers are useless, except for your own. At that point, why are carriers even visible at all?

---

Over our discussion, my thoughts about this have really crystallized.

• Upkeep is clearly a terrible mechanic that only makes the game worse. At lower levels, it's a pointless nuisance. At higher levels, it only serves to hurt helpful players.
• All services should be one-time purchases, but significantly more expensive than they currently are, giving players something additional to work towards.
• Services also shouldn't eat into your cargo capacity. If justification is needed just throw some of those mini-carrier models into the instance as support ships.
• Carriers should be invisible by default, and players should need to actively enable their visibility to other players.
• It shouldn't be possible for it to be visible if it's set to private docking only.
• Likewise, a squadron docking carrier should only be visible to squadmates.
• Public carriers should need to pay parking fees based on the number of other visible carriers in the system when visibility is enabled.

This fixes the system clutter problem instantly, as well as giving carrier-owners additional long-term goals to achieve. Buying a carrier is just step one; then you want to buy everything up to a Shipyard, too; since these don't cost you anything but credits, they're something all players can reasonably aspire towards, and expands the lifespan of the game.

 

[Dragsham]

Oh I wholeheartedly agree it's a marketing ploy to have us all logging in alot.
Not sure why they think it's nessesary. Just progressing in elite requires lots of time ingame.
Their (fdev) attitude is marketing 101.
Part of the ongoing making max cash outta elite thing atm.
Removing fees would have one huge detrimental effect. Those FC that are inactive (cmdr doesn't play anymore) will sit there dormant cluttering up the games map server bandwidth etc etc.
So a fee is essential atm@!
Once they Introduce a new timer mechanism whereby carriers dormant are put into a say, 3 mth timer whereby if the owner don't use it at all it begins the decommissioning cycle.
THEN removing fees would become pertinant.
Just for the record... my carrier is fully modded with just 2 or 3 suspended cos they don't work or crap or awaiting content fix (black market).

Do think @DemiserofD has a point. Most carriers don't have shipyards or outfitting capable of storing other cmdrs ships rearming or outfitting etc. And their dormant....an algorithm could easily identify these carriers and whether their dormant or not if they are bin em after 3 mths inactive

Simples.

 

[Artie]

Inara isn't a very complete picture, tbh. It only includes details from carriers that have been docked at by someone who has updates enabled, and there are huge numbers of carriers where docking isn't even possible due to restrictions. I'd be surprised if even half of all existing fleet carriers have valid info on there. Heck, even a quarter; even if someone did dock at one, there's a very high probability the owner has since sold off or suspended their services. My carrier's info hasn't been updated since 2021, and it actually allows docking and has active services!

Just to add some numbers from Inara - there is something over 31k known active carriers (seen last month and due the nature of updates, I guess there won't be much more carriers unknown "in the black"). From these active, there is some information known for ~25k of them (somebody docked there, their owners updated it and so on). I am not saying this information may be always up to date though, as it depends primarily on their owners as the setup of fleet carrier can change from minute to minute. But generally, on the quick check - yeah, some services aren't very popular like Pioneer supplies or Vista genomics and many "core" services may not be present or present, but disabled like Outfitting, Shipyard, Voucher redemption.

 

[Old Duck]

Oh I wholeheartedly agree it's a marketing ploy to have us all logging in alot.

Well that didn't work out too well. I can go months between logging in, and yet I have zero fear of my carrier running out of money. Most people who own carriers also have enough extra capital to keep them running for months if not years.

I'm one of the few who does like the maintenance fees, since it gives me a purpose to earning credits when I do play. I would be happy if the game had even more fees - docking fees, realistic repair fees, pirates who hack my bitcoin locker rather than my empty cargo hold, insurance that behaves like my IRL insurance (price goes up every time I get in an accident), etc. I would welcome the challenge.

 

[xzanfr]

What is wrong with you people?
You've got Frontier to make earning cash so easy that it's almost pointless;
You've got fleet carriers available for single player ownership rather than something a squadron needs to work together to get and maintain;
You've got the cost for ownership reduced after they were introduced and now you want to dumb down the cost of ownership completely.

I really wish this game had the ability to add mods so you'll all get everything in one go, get bored and get lost.