DK2 and Elite gave me 'Upgraditis'

[simphe]

Thanks for your Test Simon!
I´m quite puzzled by your findings. Not only that I seem to get much worse performance worries me but also that you see no difference in SLI is quite.. interesting.. in a bad way!

First of all: We don´t know yet if you have a CPU/Bus limitation due to 2 980s maxing out at 70% (are both your SLI slots 2.0 16x? mine is only 16x and 8x..) If the GPU usage of 70% happened only in Elite I would suggest that Vsync in the Rift is the culprit but you said that you also had those usage numbers in 3D Mark ? ...very strange as it should max them out easily...

Second: Would you try running Sli on/off with ED at DSR 2560x1440 or higher (you have to enable DSR in the Nvidia global settings If you haven´t done so already).. I think it would be impossible for 1 Card to have >75fps with Downsampling.

Third: did you try ED on the Monitor with SLI on and Vsync off? If it works on the Monitor it should work in the Rift unless something is very off.

Fourth: Don´t you regret the board/chip purchase mate! You get all the goodies like USB 3.0 and PCI-X 3 and whatnot but most important: how could we possibly get scientific data without some noble Commander spending the $ so that poor chaps like me don´t have to

cheers!

No worries Fred,

I've been playing a fair bit this evening, and I've found that I get quite a bit of judder when in solo mode or open mode, so we may in fact be in the same boat. I found that if I fly over asteroids or the ringed station type (Ocellus?) and then try to dock, it goes really juddery, and stays like that even if I turn the settings down to low. If I then save and go back to the first game menu and select Solo or Open mode again it goes back to silky smooth... This leads me to believe that it's not a GPU related issue but I'm more interested now to see whether the CPU and mobo upgrade helps with that. Although, I was watching the live stream on twitch.tv with some of the devs going fuel scooping (until someone killed them!) and there was a point in that video where they too were getting a fair bit of judder, so maybe this is one of the things which will be ironed out in the final cut. It sounds like Foxis isn't getting this issue with his VR rig though...

Back to your questions though, my cards are both in 2.0 x16 slots (so it says in the manual), although I believe one of them might be working at 8x if they're running in SLI. I'll double check the GPU usage in 3D mark 11 though - I can't remember what it was, but the graphics score was around 25000. I'll give it a try tomorrow with DSR and SLI on/off tomorrow just to check. I haven't played it on the monitor at all yet but it'll be interesting to check.

More testing is required.. much more testing.... Although as others have said, we can't really expect the SLI to work as expected until the NVidia drivers are updated. I'll carry on out of curiosity in the mean time though.

btw, thanks for the pep talk! I feel like I'm actually doing something useful for a change!

 

[simphe]

I saw your thread before but forgot about it, thanks jabokai. I think Mark Allens response in your thread is very relevant for this one.
Allthou I would have hoped that they got around optimizing the engine by now, I suggest we just keep messing about until we get gamma!

Forgot one thing: Simon, did you disable core parking on your 950 CPU?

Very true, thanks Jabokai - this sounds like what I'm getting at the mo. I'll hopefully get round to upgrading tomorrow evening (if my wife lets me near the PC..). Fred, yes I did disable the core parking - good suggestion.

 

[Foxis]

Regarding performance, I just had to fly to Wyrd to see how my rig would deal with the posh station (The Cooperation one with domes and palm trees).
A bit to my surprise I too got major stutter there on the graphics settings that work fine in all other situations. I could get rid of it by dropping the graphics settings from high to low, but I did not tinker around enough to figure out what exactly caused the frame rate to drop. The station does not seem to be that much more detailed than the other ones but whatever it is it sure makes a big difference.
I am considering ticketing it since it seems out of balance with other locations.

 

[simphe]

VR SLI is not implemented yet by NVidia. It is coming "soon". In the meantime, disable SLI when you play in VR (it adds an additional latency).

With the exception of the video card, the rest of the specs are fine.

Thanks savoirnt, I've been trying to find more info about VR SLI without much success. It seems like there are two NVidia things at play here:
1. NVidia don't have an SLI profile for ED.
2. NVidia don't have VR SLI drivers for their 900 series cards.

From what I've learned (since the start of this thread) and talking to others, it seems like the best way to play right now on the OR is to disable SLI and just get the best GPU you can get your hands on... I'll still run a few tests though - the worst that could happen is that I end up feeling sick due to the low frame rate

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I tried to get to Wyrd earlier after Fred's comments regarding that station, but it was beyond the range of my 'fresh out of the box' sidewinder from the neighbouring systems... I guess I need to actually figure out how to play the game at some point lol

 

[Foxis]

I tried to get to Wyrd earlier after Fred's comments regarding that station, but it was beyond the range of my 'fresh out of the box' sidewinder from the neighbouring systems... I guess I need to actually figure out how to play the game at some point lol

I got there with a brand new Sidewinder through an "unexplored" system. I just ignored the lines and jumped anyway.

 

[simphe]

I got there with a brand new Sidewinder through an "unexplored" system. I just ignored the lines and jumped anyway.

Nice - I'll give that a go! It sounds like there might be an issue with the model if you're having issues with it too.

 

[Foxis]

Nice - I'll give that a go! It sounds like there might be an issue with the model if you're having issues with it too.

Yes, I am suspecting that. If I can get back there tomorrow (forgot the route I took, oops) I will tinker a bit with the individual settings and see if I can find one that makes a big individual fps difference. If so I might just disable it, especially if it does not make too much of a difference to the visual impression. That is one of the few positives of the lower resolution in the current Rift, you can often get away with lowering settings without it actually being very noticeable.

 

[thafred]

Overclocked the 970 today to 1470mhz (...sweet card!) which should get me into 980 territory and it seems to really have helped my framerates. I was playing on high graphic settings and apart from the usual SC bugs it was a very smooth experience (different stations, dogfights, didnt try asteroid fields).

Wyrd Cooperative station must be broken. On the landing pad I now get almost no judder with preset "Low". started to switch through the graphic settings and as soon as I set shadows to "low" (they are "off" on low preset) it starts to drop the FR just enough to be annoying, all other settings on high. When I look at the glass domes it starts also seems to drop the FR. In the Hangar it does not matter which setting I choose it always judders like crazy, there isn´t even a difference in the feel of the judder from low to high(am I making sense?)

the OC obviously gained me a few frames, which is cool. to see that tiny increase make such a difference in the rift is bonkers.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

1. NVidia don't have an SLI profile for ED.
2. NVidia don't have VR SLI drivers for their 900 series cards.

I can confirm there's a NV SLI Profile for Elite Dangerous since 344.48 (I just had to to look at it again today to change it to force adaptive Vsync again after todays driver update, just look it up in NV Inspector).

Your second point probably nails it. I use a severely outdated System (>2,5 year old i7 3930K@4.4 Ghz, 16 Gb ram, dual 680 GTX, all watercooled), but for me the added framerate outweighs the added latency by far. I posted benchmark results back then and for me, there's a tremendous increase in FPS in SLI. It outweighs the added latency by far. On modern GPUs, you may not experience an increase in performance but just an increase in latency.

 

[simphe]

Overclocked the 970 today to 1470mhz (...sweet card!) which should get me into 980 territory and it seems to really have helped my framerates. I was playing on high graphic settings and apart from the usual SC bugs it was a very smooth experience (different stations, dogfights, didnt try asteroid fields).

Wyrd Cooperative station must be broken. On the landing pad I now get almost no judder with preset "Low". started to switch through the graphic settings and as soon as I set shadows to "low" (they are "off" on low preset) it starts to drop the FR just enough to be annoying, all other settings on high. When I look at the glass domes it starts also seems to drop the FR. In the Hangar it does not matter which setting I choose it always judders like crazy, there isn´t even a difference in the feel of the judder from low to high(am I making sense?)

the OC obviously gained me a few frames, which is cool. to see that tiny increase make such a difference in the rift is bonkers.

Well done with the overclocking - good to see it gets results. I've been trying again today, but comparing SLI performance through the monitor with that through the OC. Through the monitor with SLI on, everything was really smooth, no judder except for streaming objects etc. I then tried again with the rift, and there was a noticeable lag and judder on head movement. I then tried disabling SLI and launching again, but it was the same. I've still got everything on high settings, but I don't understand why it worked yesterday on high. Perhaps there are too many variables here... This is all still with an i7 950 (3.06 Ghz). I was using beta 3.05 yesterday too.

 

[simphe]

I can confirm there's a NV SLI Profile for Elite Dangerous since 344.48 (I just had to to look at it again today to change it to force adaptive Vsync again after todays driver update, just look it up in NV Inspector).

Your second point probably nails it. I use a severely outdated System (>2,5 year old i7 3930K@4.4 Ghz, 16 Gb ram, dual 680 GTX, all watercooled), but for me the added framerate outweighs the added latency by far. I posted benchmark results back then and for me, there's a tremendous increase in FPS in SLI. It outweighs the added latency by far. On modern GPUs, you may not experience an increase in performance but just an increase in latency.

Thanks for the tip! I'll check out the vsync settings. I didn't really notice any difference with SLI on or off anyway but I'll update my drivers and make sure the adaptive vsync setting is correct.

 

[simphe]

Latest findings:

I've been testing with SLI off this morning and I've been unable to get smooth gameplay with high graphics settings on the OR (also with SLI enabled). The only way in open/solo mode I can get smooth gameplay with high settings is to use the monitor instead of the OR, or I can turn down the graphics settings. It's just no way near smooth enough for the OR, with frame rates appearing to be down around 20fps mark when docked and looking at the station menu for example. This is in the open mode setting, but in the tutorial 'travel' scenario, there's no lag and everything's super smooth > 75fps in situations (except for texture load pauses etc).

These are the afterburner readings for open mode vs tutorial:

Open mode:

GPU:67% max, but mostly hovering around the 45 - 50%

CPU: 100% max

Tutorial mode:

GPU: 98% max, seems to be well utilised most of the time

CPU: 48% max

Theories:
So from this it seems like a potential CPU bottleneck in open mode (see thread linked earlier in this thread, as kindly pointed out by jabokai). I assume that there's a lot of extra stuff going in the background in open mode which could take CPU power away from 'feeding the GPU'. Consequently, this lowers the frame rate, which can be increased by lowering the graphics settings. When running on a normal monitor, the same is going on in the background but there's not as much CPU power required to render the non-vr at a high frame rate.

I'm just going to wait for the new mobo and processor to arrive now and then test again with the core i7 4790. Fred, I don't know if it's worth doing the super hi rez test with SLI on/off because I think the GPU power is looking like a red herring in this situation, and I can't get good frame rates with SLI on/off and high settings anyway (plus I've already started dismantling the PC for the upgrade). It might be worth checking if you get the same results with afterburner though?

 

[Chris Dettmar]

Have you tried out the DSR settings yet? I got a 970 at the beginning of the week and one of the first things I wanted to try was down sampling as the text is so much easier to read and my previous GPU really wasn't up to the job. It's really easy to do with the latest NVidia drivers. In the global settings just check the "DSR - Factors" you'd like to have available and then when in Elite Dangerous you get additional resolutions available to use. I'm currently using 2880 x 1620, which I believe corresponds to a factor of 2.25. I have had to put the graphics settings back to low and overclock in order for this to be useable, but the extra quality you get on the text is worth it. I'd be interested to know if SLI offers any benefit with this kind of setup as I'd like to go even higher or increase the quality settings. This blog suggests that at some point there ought to be a real benefit to be had in having SLI with the 970 or 980:

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/09/18/maxwell-virtual-reality/

 

[simphe]

Have you tried out the DSR settings yet? I got a 970 at the beginning of the week and one of the first things I wanted to try was down sampling as the text is so much easier to read and my previous GPU really wasn't up to the job. It's really easy to do with the latest NVidia drivers. In the global settings just check the "DSR - Factors" you'd like to have available and then when in Elite Dangerous you get additional resolutions available to use. I'm currently using 2880 x 1620, which I believe corresponds to a factor of 2.25. I have had to put the graphics settings back to low and overclock in order for this to be useable, but the extra quality you get on the text is worth it. I'd be interested to know if SLI offers any benefit with this kind of setup as I'd like to go even higher or increase the quality settings. This blog suggests that at some point there ought to be a real benefit to be had in having SLI with the 970 or 980:

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/09/18/maxwell-virtual-reality/

I haven't tried it out yet, but I will for sure once I've swapped out my mobo. I found that the text is quite difficult to read on the HUD (menus are ok), but easier if you turn off Antialiasing in the ED options. It certainly sounds worth a go though. What CPU are you running?

 

[Chris Dettmar]

I'm just using an i930 overclocked to 4GHz - probably a bit out of date these days, but it really doesn't seem to cause any problems.

 

[simphe]

I'm just using an i930 overclocked to 4GHz - probably a bit out of date these days, but it really doesn't seem to cause any problems.

Do you get good frame rates using the OC with high settings and running the open mode at 1080p in the stations? If you do, there's hope for those with older CPUs and VR (on high settings) if they overclock them? I tried overclocking my i950 once but it wouldn't work, even if I only did it a little... although I just have a stock cooler on it which might not be the best.

 

[Elison Muerte]

I would not rush to spend too much money on an upgrade yet, maybe a small upgrade to a 970 which would run D:F on the DK2 at 75hz/fps now while saving your cash to upgrade your system to CV1 standard once you know what's required to run it.

It is the assumed that the resolution of CV1 will be 4k, but if it is 4k @ 90hz (the Crystal Cove prototype is 90hz) for smooth motion then it'll need a connection not currently available on PC as Displayport 1.2 and HDMI 2.0 can only handle 4k at 60hz.

My guess is the CV1 is coming late next year and next years GFX cards will likely have the connections to support it. I know the temptation is strong but you might find you've spent your money too soon.

 

[simphe]

Haha - too late! I've been waiting a long time to upgrade for ED and OR but I just lost my patience when I heard how good the dk2 is. But yes, based on that info, waiting would be best if you upgrade not that often and want the CV1. I'm planning to wait and see, and then upgrade again if necessary once it comes out. Hopefully the 980 will hold a reasonable % of its value for resale, and the dk2.

 

[Chris Dettmar]

Do you get good frame rates using the OC with high settings and running the open mode at 1080p in the stations? If you do, there's hope for those with older CPUs and VR (on high settings) if they overclock them? I tried overclocking my i950 once but it wouldn't work, even if I only did it a little... although I just have a stock cooler on it which might not be the best.

I haven't tried it without the OC. Maybe I'll try at some point to see if makes a difference. I'd hope not as it should really be GPU that matters for this.

 

[simphe]

Don't worry about it too much if you've got things the way you want. Yes, the GPU should be the thing which really matters the most, and I'm not just saying this to try to justify my recent purchases (still waiting on arrival) but I find it strange that the frame rate is so much worse for me on the real game than it is with the tutorials (with the graphics maxed out on OR). The fact that it runs well on the tutorials shows that the GPU can handle things, unless they've changed the graphics settings for those (I didn't notice any difference). This implies that there's extra work to be done by the CPU in open/solo mode? I can't think of what else it could be, and that seems to be backed up by afterburner stats too.

Edit - it could just be a software bug! I keep forgetting this is still a beta lol