Mindboggling Scorpion weapon accuracy...not

Range. The Scarab is a sniper that can take out grunts from half a kilometer away, before they even know what hit them, but if they manage to get to you unseen it's goodbye with the tiny shields. The Scorpion should be the short range brawler with the gun only hitting things 200m or less away. At that point sharpshooters will already be able to reach you and the others will be trying to get to you. You have the shields to tank that, but can still only mow down one opponent at a time, unless running a closely stacked group over.

It should still have decent range, it's a powerful weapon system.

I'd prefer something like a weapon zeroing mechanic, where you need to keep the weapon maintained to ensure its accuracy before a mission.
That would also allow a mechanic where the opposition (NPC or players) could reduce the weapon's zeroed accuracy by accurately hitting the weapon mount.
The user counters that by not being static, so it has multiple dynamics to it.
By also having a visual guide showing zeroed accuracy and actual current accuracy, there's also a skill element for a player to compensate if it becomes less accurate due to wear or counter fire. But at least you know it's going where you aim it (compensated on the fly or not), not the silly random bouncing betty it is now.

Zeroing also has an optimal effective range element too, where you need to compensate under or over the optimal range if the target is too close or too far from the zeroed range. This is a common mechanic in combat flight sims btw, optimal weapon convergence (IL2++). More skill needed too! http://a.teall.info/edsa/ is a great tool for seeing this for ED ships.
 
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re:Scorpion weaponry, you know it gets more accurate as it heats up right? and that the missiles are accurate if you let it lock-on?
But for what that launcher costs to re-arm, I prefer the scarab. that's not enough ammo for that cost compared to any thing other than ship missiles.
Hand launcher aka L-6 is far more efficient and more fun and costs nothing to re-arm.

I get the impression it was made for those not enjoying the way the scarab drives. they are opposite of each other in that regard
Other than that, both kill soldiers, sentry skimmer, Goliath's, ships.
one kills some things faster than the other and vice versa.
you can change that effectiveness a bit by synth ammo.
I prefer the scarab, it kills everything and it actually flies.
Never killed anything larger than a vulture with the scarab but it counts and it wasn't that hard to do.
I see Goliath's in Horizons as far more aggressive and capable and deadly than in Odyssey
The Sentry Skimmers in Odyssey are soft compared to Horizons, they die as fast as Horizons Stingers which are suicidal.

Scarab also seems to have far greater range than scorpion or any hand weapon.
I had no problems destroying a few settlements from 400m away just because I could.
and for those hard to reach places, the scarab can lift off. go up 50m and waste them.
Sit on top of the entrance arch and shoot and relog and shoot...
Use it like a courier, zoom 50m above and forward or sideways at full speed killing soldiers on every pass, they barely even see you.
park on the highest stable spot on the site, exit and jump to the tallest spot and shoot them all.

Fdev really needs to allow these guys to jump. and to be able to follow that you have jumped and see and shoot.
not just mobile bowling pins.
the entire settlement is not aggressive enough.

if I can use an srv, they should have them too.
If I can jump and fly, they should be able to too.
till then its fish in a barrel.
 
When it was announced that we were finally getting a new SRV type, I was stoked.

I bought one on the day of release and tried it 3 times. My conclusion was that its crap, and so didn't use it again. Honestly, all I feel about it now, is that it was a waste of dev time. I liked the engine sound and the feel of how it handles when driven, but the gun is just an exercise in frustration and a waste of ammo. I do wish the accuracy could be vastly increased, even if it meant engineering it with some kind of mod. Firing it it reminds me of the Pulp fiction apartment scene where the guy jumps out and empties his gun at John Travolta and Sam Jackson from point blank range and misses every shot.

It makes no sense that the gun is so bad just so it isn't overpowered against infantry, but using dumbfires from the ship against infantry is just fine.

If you enjoy the Scorpion then great, but I do suspect that you are in the minority.
 
There's some great white knighting you're doing there. Scorpion level. Keep it up.

I call it understanding of game balance / gameplay issues.

And again, if you accept that a ship can have a speed limit in the vacuum of space and that a missile system or any other ship size weaponry is limited to 3-6 km range... then you should also stop making references to real life weapons and accept:
- the design behind the scorpion: powerful, but inaccurate when cold, main weapon,
-the design behind a plasma rifle that is also very powerful but limited by a small projectile speed and a range of only 200m (and many other similar limitations in terms of weaponry).
- the thermal / kinetic swapping

All these to balance on-foot combat (and getting back to the Scorp -to prevent it to easily kill commanders from long range)
 
I call it understanding of game balance / gameplay issues.

And again, if you accept that a ship can have a speed limit in the vacuum of space and that a missile system or any other ship size weaponry is limited to 3-6 km range... then you should also stop making references to real life weapons and accept:
- the design behind the scorpion: powerful, but inaccurate when cold, main weapon,
-the design behind a plasma rifle that is also very powerful but limited by a small projectile speed and a range of only 200m (and many other similar limitations in terms of weaponry).
- the thermal / kinetic swapping

All these to balance on-foot combat (and getting back to the Scorp -to prevent it to easily kill commanders from long range)

I call it understanding of game balance / gameplay issues.

You can call it what you want, the fact is it's a ridiculous design. Whataboutism is also a weak defence.
The simple fact is, nobody in their right mind would produce a weapon that acts like that, especially in a game add-on that purports to be an FPS.

Feel free to die on that hill though.

All these to balance on-foot combat (and getting back to the Scorp -to prevent it to easily kill commanders from long range)

That's too bad, the other commanders should get a Scorpion in order to balance it. If you go into combat without fire support, and run around in the open without effective use of cover, you deserve to get nailed. It's called Tactics. You don't make weapons ridiculously inaccurate or ineffective (like Scorpion surge repeater and missiles) as a way to "balance" lack of ability to think and operate tactically.
 
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re:Scorpion weaponry, you know it gets more accurate as it heats up right? and that the missiles are accurate if you let it lock-on?


>re:Scorpion weaponry, you know it gets more accurate as it heats up right?

That's a ridiculous rationale for any weapons system, fictional or otherwise.
Even if a weapon is not zeroed properly, you can be consistent with it if you know the error, optimal convergence, and have the skill to compensate.
The way it dances around at the moment is RIDICULOUS.

>and that the missiles are accurate if you let it lock-on?


Well, duh. Against Skavs they appear to have little effect even when you do this, which is double ridiculous when you can just hop in your ship and pop off dumbfire missiles instead, compensating for the sighting and convergence as outlined above. Problem solved. The divergence in missile behaviour is DOUBLE RIDICULOUS.


The only thing more ridiculous than these two silly design nerfs is people defending them as "game balance / gameplay issues."

They are simply bad design choices that lead to bad gameplay.

It's a real pity, as it's a pretty cool vehicle, nerfed in a ridiculous manner. More boost would be nice too, though.
 
The simple fact is, nobody in their right mind would produce a weapon that acts like that, especially in a game add-on that purports to be an FPS.

I see that you keep the Elite designers at high regard.

Anyway, it's a game and it has certain design goals. It's not a real life combat simulator using real life armored vehicles, ships or planes.

Whataboutism is also a weak defence.

I'm pointing out other game design choices, that you seem to accept, while you're being very miffed at the Scorp
I find this hypocritical

However, the Scorp has its perks and flaws.
If dont like it, you can keep using the Scarab - I dont like maybe half of the ships in Elite, so i dont fly them, but i dont go ballistic at the devs because of it.

I used both SRV types with great success - the only thing that keeps me from using the Scorp 100% in guardian sites is it's inability to jump - and i do seem to find a quite number of materials getting stuck on top of the pillars.
So my main beef with the Scorp is actually it's jump ability (or the lack of it) - but i find that's justified given the shields and the armor it has and the way it drives

And one more thing
The Scorp is not a replacement for the Scarab, it's designed to fill the roles a Scarab cannot, but without replacing it.
 
Among many ridiculous design decisions of EDO the super low quality Scorpion SRV weapon's accuracy and effectiveness must rank near or at #1.

You go up against a bunch of skavs who can take your ships shields down to zero with ease, yet:
  • Your Scorpion's rockets appear to have no effect on them
  • The "surge repeater" fires everywhere but at where you have it aimed. Eventually, if you're lucky before the power runs out, it might eventually hit them because someone decided that weapons work like this. They don't.
What year are we in?
What level of military technology is this, that's neither accurate or effective?

What's the point? You consistently drop a ridiculous number of skavs (I just did a settlement power up where it was 1 vs 14 skavs) on a solo player doing a settlement mission, and then nerf a key tool for them to fight back. Sure, you can hop in your ship and dumbfire them to death (which I did), or even just squash them with the ship (which I also did, out of boredom), but why why why did you produce an attack SRV that's so weak? Even the shields and armour are tissue thin.

It's more effective to just run the skavs over with it than shoot them, that's how useless it is.
That's not how real military vehicles work now, and I doubt they will in the far future.

Why not just take the weapon's off altogether and make it a dune buggy?
Aren't the Scarab and Scorpion the wrong way round? The extra cargo capacity in the Scorpion means I use it for cargo recovery missions, etc, and the superb weapon accuracy and lethality in the Scarab means I use it for scavenger killing and zapping sentinels. The Scarab is far more agile, too.
 
I see that you keep the Elite designers at high regard.

Anyway, it's a game and it has certain design goals. It's not a real life combat simulator using real life armored vehicles, ships or planes.



I'm pointing out other game design choices, that you seem to accept, while you're being very miffed at the Scorp
I find this hypocritical

However, the Scorp has its perks and flaws.
If dont like it, you can keep using the Scarab - I dont like maybe half of the ships in Elite, so i dont fly them, but i dont go ballistic at the devs because of it.

I used both SRV types with great success - the only thing that keeps me from using the Scorp 100% in guardian sites is it's inability to jump - and i do seem to find a quite number of materials getting stuck on top of the pillars.
So my main beef with the Scorp is actually it's jump ability (or the lack of it) - but i find that's justified given the shields and the armor it has and the way it drives

And one more thing
The Scorp is not a replacement for the Scarab, it's designed to fill the roles a Scarab cannot, but without replacing it.

I'm pointing out other game design choices, that you seem to accept, while you're being very miffed at the Scorp. I find this hypocritical

You are just assuming I accept them, I'm just not mentioning them. Try rereading the OP for a clue.

**SNIP
"Among many ridiculous design decisions of EDO the super low quality Scorpion SRV weapon's accuracy and effectiveness must rank near or at #1."
 
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Aren't the Scarab and Scorpion the wrong way round? The extra cargo capacity in the Scorpion means I use it for cargo recovery missions, etc, and the superb weapon accuracy and lethality in the Scarab means I use it for scavenger killing and zapping sentinels. The Scarab is far more agile, too.

You have them reversed. Still, the Scorpion seems to do ok duty collecting materials around salvage mission sites, shooting cobble/crystalline fragments with a few shots. Seems to be more accurate than shooting scavs, but that's probably due to a bigger target width. I did a bunch of salvage missions recently with it, and lack of the scanner wasn't a problem as you could see all the fumeroles etc. It's handy, but having an effective combat focused SRV that does what it's supposed to would be more useful.

Source: https://youtu.be/BMHHIM3tilU
 
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Thanks for the links.

That's even worse, that they have some kind of "rationale" for the ridiculous nerfed behaviour in an attempt to constrain the usage contexts because "balance".

Making up mechanics to cover for design flaws is just terrible design.

Heavy weapons designed for one context are quite commonly used for contexts outside their original design intent.
The battle for Brest in WW2 is a good example:
"The Germans made every effort to stop the Infantry because they knew that until we advanced and actually occupied the ground, they were not licked. Though we noted that they soon stopped firing at our attacking aircraft, we did not know why until one day someone captured a prisoner carrying an order saying the Germans were to reserve all their fire for our Infantry, including the fire of antiaircraft guns. General Ramcke was conserving his ammunition for a long siege. This meant we would get not only exclusive attention from the 88’s but also from the 40mm and lesser-caliber pieces whose shells arrived with silent suddenness and exploded above us in deadly little puffs of smoke."
 
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That's not how weapons work.

In this game it is.

But still, what remains is how would you balance a highly accurate machine gun against onfoot opponents?


The trade off is that the situational awareness when buttoned down inside an AFV is atrocious, there are countermeasures to sensors, and the vehicles themselves are sitting ducks for other weapon systems.

Anyone foolish enough to stick their head out around these things, without a plan and/or support, still dies without knowing what hit them, as should be expected. Basing balance around the assumption that vehicle mounted weapons are extremely accurate and lethal at long range is better than subverting that assumption with inanity.

Range. The Scarab is a sniper that can take out grunts from half a kilometer away, before they even know what hit them, but if they manage to get to you unseen it's goodbye with the tiny shields. The Scorpion should be the short range brawler with the gun only hitting things 200m or less away. At that point sharpshooters will already be able to reach you and the others will be trying to get to you. You have the shields to tank that, but can still only mow down one opponent at a time, unless running a closely stacked group over.

The problem is that this doesn't make any more sense; it's still an overt contrivance to address balance issues that only exist due to other overt contrivances or glaring omissions.

In any credible setting damage, range, and accuracy are all complimentary attributes for most weapon systems. Handling, often in terms of rate of traverse for a turret, field of view, and rate of fire, are the only things that get worse, as a rule, as you scale a weapon up.

Unfortunately, the game gives vehicles (and suits) a nearly complete defense in the form of shields, and doesn't provide nearly enough tools against sensors. Settlement turrets should be a real threat, and close quarter fights inside a settlement should always be risky, but shields mitigate too much of that and settlement turrets have always been garbage. Even ships have difficulty quickly taking out a Scorpion.

And again, if you accept that a ship can have a speed limit in the vacuum of space and that a missile system or any other ship size weaponry is limited to 3-6 km range... then you should also stop making references to real life weapons

I don't accept these absurdities any more than I do the ones surrounding infantry and surface combat, but even if I did, acceptance of one does not mandate acceptance of another, especially if one feels the end results are very different. Some of the ship based absurdities are easier to swallow from a gameplay and networking perspective, while the surface balance decisions simply make the gameplay more universally worse than it would otherwise be, IMO.

From concept through execution EDO's combat is silly, mostly because of it's astonishing lack of internal consistency.

He does discuss the design decisions of the surge repeater at:
Source: https://youtu.be/VCp6c4dXABw?t=858

Case in point. A small IFV, even one that is inexplicably massive and powerful for it's size, should not be a credible threat to the ships we have, certainly not without altering existing balance to make those ships credible threats to each other. They then decide, for whatever inane reason, that stationary infantry should be able to survive several lucky shots from this anti-ship surge repeater. So, they invert the bloom, and that's where the weapon really jumps the shark.

The degree of bloom/spread on the other weapons that have it in ED is already pretty crazy, but it was a long established precident, and one that had at least vaguely plausible explanations behind it. Inverting bloom ruined that. It makes zero sense (the handwavium explanation proffered is lunacy), was completely unnecessary (except, perhaps, to mask other balance issues that should have just been addressed themselves), and went from encouraging trigger discipline and pip management, to forcing 4 pips in WEP and just spraying harder to maximize the number of semi-accurate shots one had.

The philosophy that everyone, no matter how inept or unfortunate, should get the opportunity to react after they've been caught doing something dumb or reckless, is gameplay doctrine I find fundamentally anti-entertaining.
 
if I have to fight a Goliath I'm far more effective on foot with the Executioner while having missile cover from my ship's point defense.
Wait. Under what circumstance does one have to fight a goliath? I remember there being missions to kill "criminal goliaths" years ago, but I thought that mission type was removed.

I only see goliaths at spaceports and I didn't think there was any mission to attack those either.
 
If it was made super accurate and long range we would have reams of threads compaining that ground combat zones are now pointless because all you have to do is drive up in a scorpion and kill everything, meh, it's a game, it's their game, they make the decisions, they don't even have to justify them, this is how it is, that's all they need to say.
 
If it was made super accurate and long range we would have reams of threads compaining that ground combat zones are now pointless because all you have to do is drive up in a scorpion and kill everything, meh, it's a game, it's their game, they make the decisions, they don't even have to justify them, this is how it is, that's all they need to say.

As opposed to the overall -ve reviews of EDO ground combat (& EDO generally, still, 12.1 updates in) that currently prevail?

I see.

Okay then, I shall continue to run skavs over with my Scorpion, squash them like bugs with my ship, or perhaps just pepper them with dumbfire missiles for that compelling ground combat experience that comprises the current "balanced gameplay" experience that is EDO.
 
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Wait. Under what circumstance does one have to fight a goliath? I remember there being missions to kill "criminal goliaths" years ago, but I thought that mission type was removed.

I only see goliaths at spaceports and I didn't think there was any mission to attack those either.
Military settlements when you trigger the alarm.
 
I want to chime in as well.

I've seen the dev interview and I know why Frontier designed the Scorpion the way they did. Let me just state for the record that I absolutely, completely, wholeheartedly disagree.

I'd love to know how the majority of players thinks about this. Is "ship = SRV = person" really the favorite?
I'm firmly in the "ship > SRV > person" camp. There's always indestructible buildings to use as cover.
 
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