What feature do hope will be updated/refreshed for early 2023?

Limitations are necessary for actions to have consequences. Consequences are necessary for decisions to have meaning. Decisions need to have meaning for a game to have depth. Games need to have depth so that they don't become a dull repetitive grind that sucks all the fun of playing them.

This game already has far too many cracks in it, ones which easily transform this game into a dull repetitive grind when followed by the unwary, who will then complain about their effects. Frontier seems be not only unwilling to fix the cracks, but they often respond to player complaints about following them by widening them instead. There's no real need to exacerbate the situation further.

I disagree. I don't believe intentional limitations to a gameplay experience in any way directly affect actions having consequences. Arguments about "depth" have gone on since time immemorial around so many games, and the word's meaning has become so vague as to inevitably mean "the desires of the individual poster using the word".

You won't fix the problem of dull repetitive grinds by adding more restrictions in. That will only ever result in worsening the problem.

FDev, in my view, absolutely cares about fixing your oft-quoted 'cracks'. They simply have made haphazard choices and decisions in the process. What they truly need is clear vision and focus upon what the game is supposed to be like - which assuredly isn't to be more restrictive of an experience than it already is.
 
I see your point and in some cases would agree...... however as a general rule i think it is important for a game which is attempting to have any sort of verisimilitude to have rules.

take your ship transfer example. I am not going to argue about price.......... there was a time i would have cared deeply but FD have ruined their economy now so badly that i think it is beyond repair. (I would much rather had a sensible economy but have almost everything in game purchasable via credits)

but i digress, ship transfer. ..... there was a time when FD were going to make it instant. if i take you literally i imagine you would be in favour of this, however i think it was an awful idea. it would have completely killed a portion of the game. as it is some player downsize the drives in their ships to the point of them being broken, and it would have made instant transfer the defacto way to do anything. there would be no point ever flying a short range heavily armed ship as you would just go everywhere in your long range jumper and then magic in your ships.

imo doing it yourself should always be the fastest way to do anything.
this is just 1 example where what you may consider an artificial restriction i think is a vital game mechanic which helps keep the 4th wall intact.

I quite agree with your statement about verisimilitude and rules.

I had almost managed to forget about the "instant ship transfer" event...the rightful uproar over that idea (much of it my own, I was very much in opposition) almost completely obscured the oppressively high prices they had in mind on ship transfers. Certainly, that problem has been marginalized with how common credits are now in comparison to back then, though. (I think the credits economy situation is a prime example of what happens when you don't have a clear vision behind the decision-making process. I haven't put much thought on how to remedy the situation, myself, as there's so many other more pressing issues.)

To your point: recalling my stated opinions in the event, the reason that idea of instant transfer was so terrible was because it broke all the established rules of travel in the game. Not because it tried to add/remove artificial restrictions. Respecting the rules and laws of your game world is one thing, injecting restriction and frustration for the sake of restriction and frustration is entirely another, deplorable thing.
 
ahhh i wish i had seen this before my last reply, as it makes it very clear, we both want elite to be very different games.... i dont think we will have much common ground on this. npc crew is for me up their with VR support as the most important features the game needs.

Oh, I absolutely agree that NPC crew is one of the most important features. But the idea I quoted would be absolutely horrendous with the current combat grind, the XP splitting, the profit shares, the lack of NPC presence in the ship, the outstanding balance problems, the list goes on.

To be clear, I would absolutely love a future where we are encouraged to have a crew or be in a wing with other ships, rather than be punished for it as we currently are now.
 
Oh, I absolutely agree that NPC crew is one of the most important features. But the idea I quoted would be absolutely horrendous with the current combat grind, the XP splitting, the profit shares, the lack of NPC presence in the ship, the outstanding balance problems, the list goes on.

To be clear, I would absolutely love a future where we are encouraged to have a crew or be in a wing with other ships, rather than be punished for it as we currently are now.
fair enough..... it seems i was mistaken perhaps and in the words of one of the most over used tropes ever.... perhaps we're not so different you and i

It would have to be a given that whilst some form of salary for crew would be a thing, they would have to change it from what it is now, otherwise everyone flying a crewed anaconda would be bancrupt!.
 
I quite agree with your statement about verisimilitude and rules.

I had almost managed to forget about the "instant ship transfer" event...the rightful uproar over that idea (much of it my own, I was very much in opposition) almost completely obscured the oppressively high prices they had in mind on ship transfers. Certainly, that problem has been marginalized with how common credits are now in comparison to back then, though. (I think the credits economy situation is a prime example of what happens when you don't have a clear vision behind the decision-making process. I haven't put much thought on how to remedy the situation, myself, as there's so many other more pressing issues.)

To your point: recalling my stated opinions in the event, the reason that idea of instant transfer was so terrible was because it broke all the established rules of travel in the game. Not because it tried to add/remove artificial restrictions. Respecting the rules and laws of your game world is one thing, injecting restriction and frustration for the sake of restriction and frustration is entirely another, deplorable thing.
I don't remember it obscuring the prices. As far as I know they never mentioned or explained fully what they planned to do. Among that the prices. Pretty pointless to discuss only half of a mechanicand "decide" on something when you don't have the full picture.
 
If you are consciously having to make restrictions for the sake of restriction in the process of game design, you are probably already doing something wrong. Over the years Fdev has made several decisions that seem to take your point of view that "games need restrictions" as the main focus, to our collective detriment. (Dare I remind everyone how expensive ship transfers were going to be, a feature that Fdev themselves stated was meant as a QOL feature?)

I have never, not once, experienced a game where I felt an artificial restriction in place and thought to myself, "wow, this game is definitely more fun thanks to the lack of QOL in this feature".
Are you telling me games don't need rules?

Remind me never to play chess with you
 
As I recall, all of those issues were totally unrelated to AI behavior. (I miss SJA hanging around the forums, updating us about her work on that.) All of those events occurred because of incredibly broken bugs, such as NPC-mounted Plasma Accelerators firing as though they were beam lasers.

At some point, I will say, I think the quality of combat against AI opponents declined, when they started to joust more and move in ways that just are not humanly possible because it requires totally precise use of all lateral thrusters at all times - the net effect being, they're just more annoying to engage and keep within your engagement range than used to be the case.
I don't know about smarter. The only thing I noticed with the NPC was they could now accelerate reverse just as fast as forward and I found it incredibly stupid. I still can't disbelieve this crap, thrusters are bigger on the back - not the front. Wasn't really better for gameplay.
What also changed was the equipment tables. And one of the changes later included the full release of the Hull reinforcement cancer to NPC. Awful, just godawful. But hey, we got the shait engineers, to mod away anything that doesn't fit.
 
I don't remember it obscuring the prices. As far as I know they never mentioned or explained fully what they planned to do. Among that the prices. Pretty pointless to discuss only half of a mechanicand "decide" on something when you don't have the full picture.
Well, yeah...that's what I mean by obscured: so much discussion had to be had about whether transfers would be instant or not, that the topic of the prices got shunted aside. Same difference, y'know?
 
Are you telling me games don't need rules?

Remind me never to play chess with you
No. Restrictions and rules are not the same thing.

Chess doesn't become more fun by making up new rules about tying the player's hands behind their backs, blindfolding them, making them face away from the board, or placing the board itself barely within reach of the players. (Though I'm sure, naturally, that idea is going to appeal to somebody out in the world....)
 
In what part of your idealized world of "meaningful decisions" does the specific reduction of your XP gains because you took the time and effort to invest in a crew-capable ship, finding a crew member you wanted, bringing them aboard, mounting weapons and a ship-launchable fighter so they can be of use in combat, offer even the SLIGHTEST amount of "meaningful decisions" to you?
Simple: The fact that “XP” shared between between you and your crew transforms installing a fighter bay from a “no brainer” decision, to one where you need to consider its effects your short and long term goals. A fighter bay adds to your ship’s both offensive and defensive capabilities, and it comes at the expense of an optional slot. With the absurd levels of reward inflation even when SLFs were introduced, there is very little opportunity cost to installing one, especially when all other operational costs were removed or obviated by said reward inflation.

Not only does crew add a desperately needed, but still relatively minor, operational cost, but they affect how quickly you progress up Combat ranks.

Now, I’m not a fan of Frontier’s accumulative approach to ranks in general. I’d prefer a relative ranking, especially for combat. I’m also not a fan of how Frontier has handled combat difficulty. Difficulty should be relative to a system’s or planet’s security levels, government type, and faction states… not “Combat Zone” type or modified by Combat Ranking. But in an MMO, you must play the game you have, not the game you wish it would be.

With a handful of engineers requiring a specific Combat ranking for access, hiring crew represents a significant opportunity cost, especially for a non-combat oriented player. Crew represents a trade of short-term security for quicker access to those engineers. That’s what gives the decision to hire crew meaning.

Conversely, if you don’t care about that engineer access, but are concerned about how the inevitable increase in enemy ability and hit point inflation will affect your game, you can hire NPC crew early. This would be a meaningful decision as well… if reward inflation hadn’t trivialized their salary costs. But since rewards are so high, especially relative to smaller ships who can’t install a fighter bay in the first place, if you don’t care about access to those few engineers, it’s pretty much a “no brainer.”

Which is why the decision of when to hire crew is such an interesting one for me, as a player who only dabbles in combat. I want access to those engineers… or more accurately, access to additional pinned blueprints for remote engineering. Conversely, I don’t want to reach the combat ranking where NPCs become “bullet sponges.” I want to the decision to stop and fight while running missions to be a meaningful one, as opposed to a “no brainer” due to excessive TTK. So I’ve decided to hire crew once I hit Expert. Expert level NPCs currently pose a decent enough threat to my armed cargo/passenger ships, and grants access to all but one of the combat engineers IIRC.
 
I don't know about smarter. The only thing I noticed with the NPC was they could now accelerate reverse just as fast as forward and I found it incredibly stupid. I still can't disbelieve this crap, thrusters are bigger on the back - not the front. Wasn't really better for gameplay.
What also changed was the equipment tables. And one of the changes later included the full release of the Hull reinforcement cancer to NPC. Awful, just godawful. But hey, we got the shait engineers, to mod away anything that doesn't fit.
I didn't claim smarter. 😅

Out of respect for SJA's efforts, I wouldn't word it that strongly, but I do generally share your sentiments. If and when hitpoint inflation gets addressed, revisiting AI combat behavior would be a nice topic of improvement. Amongst several other topics.
 
No. Restrictions and rules are not the same thing.

Chess doesn't become more fun by making up new rules about tying the player's hands behind their backs, blindfolding them, making them face away from the board, or placing the board itself barely within reach of the players. (Though I'm sure, naturally, that idea is going to appeal to somebody out in the world....)

Okay. What I'm saying then is that games need rules. And the gamemakers at Elite have decided the rule is that there's a limit to the amount of equipment you can load on to your ship

Chess doesn't become more fun if all your pieces can move to any square on the board
 
I'm going to bet that the major feature being reworked is CQC where they will add a foot version of CQC gameplay.

Mostly because i dont see them spending any time on anything but foot gameplay and that's an aspect of the game that isn't being serviced in foot land currently (adhoc pvp).

I see zero reason why any significant "reworked feature" would be related to ship gameplay. The only justification for additional development would be adding users, and it seems pretty obvious fdev believes that can only happen by adopting fps gameplay. Everything else is money they wont get back and there's never been any interest in doing the work just for improving the art - as we see from all of the half baked game mechanics that have never been really finished.

So either the above or they've decided on some non-combat foot gameplay mechanic that players wont instantly hate (again).
 
Simple: The fact that “XP” shared between between you and your crew transforms installing a fighter bay from a “no brainer” decision, to one where you need to consider its effects your short and long term goals. A fighter bay adds to your ship’s both offensive and defensive capabilities, and it comes at the expense of an optional slot. With the absurd levels of reward inflation even when SLFs were introduced, there is very little opportunity cost to installing one, especially when all other operational costs were removed or obviated by said reward inflation.

Not only does crew add a desperately needed, but still relatively minor, operational cost, but they affect how quickly you progress up Combat ranks.

Now, I’m not a fan of Frontier’s accumulative approach to ranks in general. I’d prefer a relative ranking, especially for combat. I’m also not a fan of how Frontier has handled combat difficulty. Difficulty should be relative to a system’s or planet’s security levels, government type, and faction states… not “Combat Zone” type or modified by Combat Ranking. But in an MMO, you must play the game you have, not the game you wish it would be.

With a handful of engineers requiring a specific Combat ranking for access, hiring crew represents a significant opportunity cost, especially for a non-combat oriented player. Crew represents a trade of short-term security for quicker access to those engineers. That’s what gives the decision to hire crew meaning.

Conversely, if you don’t care about that engineer access, but are concerned about how the inevitable increase in enemy ability and hit point inflation will affect your game, you can hire NPC crew early. This would be a meaningful decision as well… if reward inflation hadn’t trivialized their salary costs. But since rewards are so high, especially relative to smaller ships who can’t install a fighter bay in the first place, if you don’t care about access to those few engineers, it’s pretty much a “no brainer.”

Which is why the decision of when to hire crew is such an interesting one for me, as a player who only dabbles in combat. I want access to those engineers… or more accurately, access to additional pinned blueprints for remote engineering. Conversely, I don’t want to reach the combat ranking where NPCs become “bullet sponges.” I want to the decision to stop and fight while running missions to be a meaningful one, as opposed to a “no brainer” due to excessive TTK. So I’ve decided to hire crew once I hit Expert. Expert level NPCs currently pose a decent enough threat to my armed cargo/passenger ships, and grants access to all but one of the combat engineers IIRC.
The only effects it has on my goals is that of hampering and restricting my progress - rather bluntly, given it's a multiplier per each additional wing or crew member - which has the simple result of not making me want to engage whatsoever.

That is disengagement - the opposite of meaningful fun.

Bear in mind I'm only concerned with the impact on XP, not the credits. If crew and SLFs were made more expensive to run or somesuch, I wouldn't mind.

And the presence of a SLF, or even the act of being in a wing, most certainly does not double the rate at which you accumulate combat XP (let alone triple or quadruple it, as would be necessary for each additional crew or wing member). That's assuming you're managing to perfectly tag every target together, by the way.

"Opportunity cost" is not what makes having a crew or SLF aboard, interesting and fun in the first place. The act of having a crew, and having a ship-launchable-fighter, seeing them, using them, interacting with them - that should be what makes that interesting and fun. It bears saying that the game has done very little to make either aspect feel like much fun since the features were added.

The inclusion of this XP-reduction "opportunity cost" only directly extends the grind - if you choose to have a crew or wing. That is less fun, not more.

Trying to make up for fun deficit by introducing opportunity cost is the wrong way to go around things, unless you are deliberately aiming to entertain a masochistic audience that enjoys being punished for their participation. (As is often the case with MMORPG crowds, I've found....)

edit: Posted response and realized I had only addressed part of your response....
Improvements to combat rank gain could most certainly be made, in any number of ways. Removing XP reduction would be simpler and direct, in the short term.

It's worth noting that every MMO I've touched, I've found that as games they are ultimately not worth playing. There are any number of alternative games in the world - to say nothing of timesinks in general; there is no necessity behind playing the "game you have" if the game you have is flawed past the point of enjoyability. Settling for suck, so to speak, is not the way; it is that unfortunate mentality of commitment to a title that entraps so many gamers to an experience that I think they really aren't enjoying half as much as they would if they tried something else. And which has the compound effect of ensuring that the game they are playing, doesn't have any impetus to be improved.

I don't really see a correlation between hiring a crew member and unlocking Engineers, I think that's a stretch even at best.

And I certainly take issue with your claim that rewards are "increased". No, they aren't, they are in fact being actively reduced in every way - both your credit gain (to a marginal extent) and your XP gain (by a massive fractional multiplier extent).

There's nothing that interesting about "when" to hire a crew. It's either any time if you don't care about the loss of XP gains, or after you reach Elite combat first.

Obviously if you are only concerned with a rank as low as Expert, your concerns about XP gains are minimal.
 
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Okay. What I'm saying then is that games need rules. And the gamemakers at Elite have decided the rule is that there's a limit to the amount of equipment you can load on to your ship

Chess doesn't become more fun if all your pieces can move to any square on the board
We are agreed that games need rules. Making pieces move to any square on the board would be blatantly breaking the established rules of the game. As I stated, rules and restrictions are not the same thing.

Making interesting rules, such as 'en passant', and injecting restrictions for the sake of restriction, are not the same thing. Which really, is a common mistake of game design in general, in my view.

Anyway, as per the established rules of this game, I don't believe rules about equipment slots would be meaningfully detracted from by QOL changes to features like supercruise and
docking computers. Using our chess example, it would be like placing an additional button on the shared timer so that each player has it more easily within their reach. Doesn't really change much, doesn't affect the core of the game being played, and makes the experience just that little bit easier to enjoy.

Though of course any traditional chess purist could rant about how the act of having to reach for the timer button makes the game more meaningful and is how the game was played in ancient times and all that....;)
 
@V'larr

We'll have to agree to disagree then. For me, it's overcoming limitations that ultimately makes a game fun. Creating strategies, developing skills, and making meaningful decisions: this is what I enjoy in the games I play. This game was much more fun for me when credits were scarce, and when I had to weigh the pros (increased capabilities) and cons (increased operational costs) of a C-rated module. This game was more fun when grade-5 materials were scarce enough that G3 modifications had a place in my builds. This game was more fun when the best missions were a combination of influence gain and negative faction states.

If I wanted a game without limitations, I'd play games in creative modes. Removing limitations simply makes success inevitable, and inevitable success is unappealing. And that's what Frontier has transformed this game into: one where success is inevitable, where it's impossible to have a setback, and where there most decisions are a "no brainer."

What I wanted most from Elite: Dangerous is what I was able to do be in its predecessors: a struggling pilot who needs to make meaningful decisions to get ahead in the world. What I'm playing instead is a wealthy dilettante whose decisions are mostly on the order of "What would I like for breakfast." The game is so ludicrously generous with credits and materials these days, that even repeatedly restarting my alt doesn't leave me struggling for long.

At least the flight model is decent enough (though it used to be much better before Frontier "fixed" Supercruise), the game is great in VR, and the flight controls are designed with a full HOTAS control scheme in mind. And the Stellar Forge is phenomenon. I just wish it had as much meat on its bones, like it did in the past.
 
I'm going to bet that the major feature being reworked is CQC where they will add a foot version of CQC gameplay.

Mostly because i dont see them spending any time on anything but foot gameplay and that's an aspect of the game that isn't being serviced in foot land currently (adhoc pvp).

I see zero reason why any significant "reworked feature" would be related to ship gameplay. The only justification for additional development would be adding users, and it seems pretty obvious fdev believes that can only happen by adopting fps gameplay. Everything else is money they wont get back and there's never been any interest in doing the work just for improving the art - as we see from all of the half baked game mechanics that have never been really finished.

So either the above or they've decided on some non-combat foot gameplay mechanic that players wont instantly hate (again).
as a cherry on the cake i would like some more content for CQC, as well as bots so i can get a game.......... but if FD made their 2023 big fanfare release about it i think there would be hell to pay given many (most??) players consider it at best a bonus game outside of elite, or at worst an irritation that should never have been made.

I like CQC, but only as a bonus freebie and any work done on that i would expect to be a minor footnote not a major feature. I think FD know this as well and it would be bordering on Trolling if that was their reveal imo....
 
as a cherry on the cake i would like some more content for CQC, as well as bots so i can get a game.......... but if FD made their 2023 big fanfare release about it i think there would be hell to pay given many (most??) players consider it at best a bonus game outside of elite, or at worst an irritation that should never have been made.

I like CQC, but only as a bonus freebie and any work done on that i would expect to be a minor footnote not a major feature. I think FD know this as well and it would be bordering on Trolling if that was their reveal imo....
I dont think they're above trolling. We do have an entire "role" in the game that consists of staring at stationary non-interactive objects. CQC itself could be considered trolling given the complaints pvp players had that preceded its creation and it not addressing those concerns at all. "Armstrong moment" but you can't actually step out of your ship to the surface. We could keep going.

But i dont think it's intentional trolling. It's accidental. I'd see a feature update (the entire foot mode) to cqc locked behind the odyssey dlc purchase as a value add to odyssey that is tangible and provides a unique implementation of odyssey gameplay elements in a way that in-game roles for foot gameplay cannot. Whether it ends up trolling players or not with its actual implementation ..would remain to be seen. There's a chance to attract and potentially retain new players with that gameplay loop because it is quick to engage and quick to disengage - an aspect of the pvp gameplay central to pvp game success that fdev was not really able to implement in ED proper via their taxi system and a significant complaint by players in retention (it takes too long to experience gameplay and nobody is interested in the stuff between - that and the gameplay is too repetitive because you're almost always playing against npcs)
 
@V'larr

We'll have to agree to disagree then. For me, it's overcoming limitations that ultimately makes a game fun. Creating strategies, developing skills, and making meaningful decisions: this is what I enjoy in the games I play. This game was much more fun for me when credits were scarce, and when I had to weigh the pros (increased capabilities) and cons (increased operational costs) of a C-rated module. This game was more fun when grade-5 materials were scarce enough that G3 modifications had a place in my builds. This game was more fun when the best missions were a combination of influence gain and negative faction states.

If I wanted a game without limitations, I'd play games in creative modes. Removing limitations simply makes success inevitable, and inevitable success is unappealing. And that's what Frontier has transformed this game into: one where success is inevitable, where it's impossible to have a setback, and where there most decisions are a "no brainer."

What I wanted most from Elite: Dangerous is what I was able to do be in its predecessors: a struggling pilot who needs to make meaningful decisions to get ahead in the world. What I'm playing instead is a wealthy dilettante whose decisions are mostly on the order of "What would I like for breakfast." The game is so ludicrously generous with credits and materials these days, that even repeatedly restarting my alt doesn't leave me struggling for long.

At least the flight model is decent enough (though it used to be much better before Frontier "fixed" Supercruise), the game is great in VR, and the flight controls are designed with a full HOTAS control scheme in mind. And the Stellar Forge is phenomenon. I just wish it had as much meat on its bones, like it did in the past.
I'm getting a feeling that you want an Escape from Raxxla sort of game. From what I've seen of prior Elite entries, I never got the impression of a 'struggling pilot trying to get by in the world'. Personally, I don't like games that fundamentally want to chop you off at the ankles and punish you for playing. (Though I would absolutely try EFT if it had an officially supported PvE progress mode, I long for an authentic-feel first person looter-shooter). I certainly would never even consider resetting my progress, alt or no - why throw away my invested time and effort like that? There's so many more fulfilling ways to challenge myself, if I want a challenge at all. There's something to be said for being allowed to relax, too.

It's true that module ratings used to matter more, but I don't see much fun in being forced, or heavily incentivized via forms of punishment, to make unoptimal choices. Like Darkest Dungeon: I don't enjoy it because I like suffering and being punished by the game - I do enjoy it for the combat tactics, Lovecraftian story, and the gradual feeling of improving your village and getting to the bottom of what's going in the dungeon. So, I usually intentionally tone down enemy crits, especially in the hard dungeons - it's just a random thing that you have no control or influence over whatsoever, but it screws you over to a degree that often will end your run.

To me, the sort of experience you're after is where decisions are forced into "no brainer" pidgeon-holes - there's a set limit of things you can do without being screwed over, and that's what you have to do lest the game punish you and invalidate your invested time and effort. You don't get the freedom to make interesting or different decisions - the optimal path to survival is the only thing you can effectively do. More than one game has turned me away by resorting to such pidgeon-holing.

I much prefer having a multitude of equally viable options to choose from, and the freedom to explore them all. That's where true variety and interesting, meaningful decision-making lies. (Not that that is where Elite is yet, either.)
 
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