Is this really it? Is this the whole game? Did I miss something?

[MorkFromOrk]

Which game exactly are you using as the model which was fully completed with content and vision as the basis for putting it on a pedestel and then holding FD to the same stringent guidelines. I could name perhaps five immediately that I enjoy to this day but took gigabytes of patches to fix and get right. Yes, gigabytes.

Shok.

Only this game. Nothing else. Only the Design Discussions, nothing else. By this game I could also count the original that never once needed a patch/update in order to be superb.

Try to remember though; I'm not attacking the game, I'm simply agreeing it isn't finished. You (and others) are trying to shoot down the discussion (your own words) by saying any concerns about the game being unfinished are invalid because the game is not finished. Of course that is a valid argument only to the point where the game is 'finished'

Oddly though, your last response now seems to say that even when released there can be no concern over the game being unfinished because other games you have played were released unfinished. So it appears that other games are valid comparisons for this game, but only in as much that their 'failings' can be used to justify similar failing in this one. The OP seems to have made an error by using aspects of other games that could actually be considered to be at a reasonable level of 'finishedness'. Obviously a schoolboy/girl error in debating that one.

So to summarise, this game will have an unknown quantity of 'finished' at the time of release, but in your personal opinion it will not be finished enough to warrant concern. Please can you indicate at what given quantity of 'finished' the game will be sufficiently 'finished' enough for any thread to escape being blasted with your virtual shotgun of flames?

 

[flashframe]

Ok, so, I'm very new to Elite as a whole. but reading through the first couple of pages of this thread has me thinking.

I think the problem OP is having, is that he doesn't really understand what "Open Sandbox" games are ment to be. He wants a structured, start to finish game. He's used to the "sandbox" title being applied to games like Farcry and Crysis and the like.

Eliteangerous, is more like ArmA, or DCS, or any number of other "simulator" games.

To give an example. I can launch into ArmA 2 or 3 and select to play the "Wasteland" gametype. which allows me to play as a survivor in a post apoc setting. I'm dropped into the game with a weapon in a random location, and told to go survive. my end game in wasteland, is to 1)Get food/water. 2)get better guns/gear. 3)survive.

Do you have any idea, how much fun I've had spending hours just... running around a forest just hiding from people and taking pot-shots?

On that same token, I can go into a game like Crysis, which is described as an "Open Sandbox" game, and my options change slightly, but not by much really. do I go in guns blazing, do I go in stealthy? In fact because Crysis is more structured with an absolute end game campaign, I am even MORE limited in what I can do.

Elite is much more like playing the Wasteland mod of ArmA, you drop in with a basic ship, you have essentially "perma death" in that you loose your gear if you die [sure there's the insurance system, but if you can't pay, perma death.]. You start off in a weak ship, with weak weapons, but it's enough to get you moving. from that point, that's when you decide "What is my role today?" Do you want to be a trader? Combat Pilot, ect? Myself, I decided to focus on trading.

Ok, so I've decided to become a trader. Now as I live stream this game, my viewers are going to find it more interesting if I'm playing Multiplayer. so I join the Open World game, and begin my quest to get a cargo ship.

Well, I have a couple of choices, I can haul limited amounts of cargo with the basic ship to begin with... So I start with small delivery runs. Which quickly add up till I can get a bigger ship, to do bigger cargo runs.

That's just an example of the start... now as you progress, you travel farther you see new things. And each and every jump can end up differently, each and every time you visit a system, something new can happen. There's this sense of wonder when you fly into a starport and suddenly see a captial ship exiting the dock... or you see a huge battle going on just outside of the station you just stopped by to maybe make a quick delivery and get some repairs... Even just transporting light cargo into an area, and getting interdicted by another player, who wants what cargo you have...

I dunno, maybe I'm just a huge sim junkie, or survival game lover. I play the heck out of DayZ, and this is like, survival in space. Elite Dangerous lets me craft my own adventure... if I get bored of cargo hauling, I can totally switch it up and take up military fighting, or piracy.

OP, have you tried alligning with a specific faction? Have you attempted going pirate? Or are you just someone who wants a begining, middle, and end to your games. Because if you want the latter, ED is not going to be the game for you.

 

[Shoklar]

Only this game. Nothing else. Only the Design Discussions, nothing else. By this game I could also count the original that never once needed a patch/update in order to be superb.

Try to remember though; I'm not attacking the game, I'm simply agreeing it isn't finished. You (and others) are trying to shoot down the discussion (your own words) by saying any concerns about the game being unfinished are invalid because the game is not finished. Of course that is a valid argument only to the point where the game is 'finished'

Oddly though, your last response now seems to say that even when released there can be no concern over the game being unfinished because other games you have played were released unfinished. So it appears that other games are valid comparisons for this game, but only in as much that their 'failings' can be used to justify similar failing in this one. The OP seems to have made an error by using aspects of other games that could actually be considered to be at a reasonable level of 'finishedness'. Obviously a schoolboy/girl error in debating that one.

So to summarise, this game will have an unknown quantity of 'finished' at the time of release, but in your personal opinion it will not be finished enough to warrant concern. Please can you indicate at what given quantity of 'finished' the game will be sufficiently 'finished' enough for any thread to escape being blasted with your virtual shotgun of flames?

Actually, there was a bug in the Firebird version that required the Metropolitan version that fixed it on certain computers in regards to the original Elite. Also, there's 400 billions stars. This game and future content are far far from finished. Give this time to sink in and use your imagination. To name a few; wormholes, black holes, mis-jumps, new technology, new races with vastly superior jump drives you could obtain. We lack, only in our own imagination. If you yourself created something, would you continue to perfect it. I know I would.

Shok.

 

[Toumal]

Try to remember though; I'm not attacking the game, I'm simply agreeing it isn't finished. You (and others) are trying to shoot down the discussion (your own words) by saying any concerns about the game being unfinished are invalid because the game is not finished. Of course that is a valid argument only to the point where the game is 'finished'

Ok look, I agree the game isn't finished, and it lacks long term motivation. I'm as curious as anyone else about how things will progress.

However, allow me to make three observations:

1) Frontier has repeatedly stated that they will support the game with feature updates post release, alongside the upcoming major expansions.

2) What's there is, despite being in beta state, still pretty freaking awesome

3) We have what, ten threads about the exact same subject? Could we cut out the "is that all? I'm booooored" threads? And for that matter, if someone creates a positive thread, could the very people opening those "boooored" threads cut out telling others not to open new threads?

Please?

Thanks.

 

[Irre]

I think the problem OP is having, is that he doesn't really understand what "Open Sandbox" games are ment to be.

it´s no sandbox we already had discussions on that
no sandbox features, no sandbox

so you´re confusing terms here not OP having problems

 

[bassman]

So what would you like to see introduced?

I share the sense of emptiness that many people are complaining about.

The best parallel I can draw is thinking back to the original days of paper-and-dice D&D. It worked as a concept because you have a dungeon master who created a world to explore, this world would have some logic behind it, things would where they were for a reason, what you did in one place would have consequences later on - did you find that hidden key or disarm that trap that would trigger later one etc. Then someone came up with the idea of a "solo" version where you would explore a world that you would generate yourself by rolling dice as you went to decide what monsters you would find, what treasure was there etc. The thing is it was a completely unengaging experience, it lacked the very thing that made D&D work - the sense of action and consequence, of a coherent living world where you were participating.

ED feels like one of those solo role playing games - I come out of SC, computer rolls a dice to see what NPCs are there, I dock, the computer rolls a dice to see what mission are available, I go back into SC, the computer rolls a dice to see what USS's are there and if an NPC is going to interdict me etc etc.

There is no sense of things happening for a reason, or that anything I do will have any effect on the game world. USS's are probably the most glaring example - if I find a USS with 10 gold canister, I should be able to take five and come back for the rest later, or I should be able to sit there and wait for another player/NPC to come and try to grab the gold and I ambush him. The USS should be persistent and have a reason for being there, maybe it was originally a piracy event and the pirate didnt have enough space to take the whole lot, maybe I can try to find a wake to track the pirate and steal his gold, I could decide to track him, find out who he sold the gold to and sell mine at a better profit. Maybe the trader got away after dropping the gold, I decide to try to find him, I find him and find that while I was doing that the pirate went and got some mates to attach the trader again, perhaps I help the trader and he rewards me with part of his haul, perhaps he hires me and some other mercs to go find the base where the pirate came from ...

The possibilities would be endless and it wouldnt need any hand crafted content - just for things to be persistent and connected and to have simple autonomous behaviors that were consistent with the game lore. You cant "make your own adventure" in a meaningful way unless basic cause and effect exists in the universe.

 

[MorkFromOrk]

OP, have you tried alligning with a specific faction? Have you attempted going pirate? Or are you just someone who wants a begining, middle, and end to your games. Because if you want the latter, ED is not going to be the game for you.

Read a few more pages and don't just consider the OP post. Aligning with a faction is a mental exercise today, nothing more as alignment gives nothing as a benefit yet. The issue is more around whether each of the game mechanisms we have could actually benefit from a bit more depth to them.

Get a toy gun and go stand in a large forest. Now enact a famous conflict by yourself with no other props, players, costumes or detailed storyline. Sure this is a weak example because ED gives us a very nice toy gun (in fact a wide selection of toy guns), an extremely large and varied forest, and it also gives us someone to play the game with. However since no-one has to play with us at all, and the ways in which they are allowed to play with us (should they actually want to) are currently quite limited, the NPC players and the missions are the ones that dictate how complex our story can be.

35 years ago one of those wind up toy robots gave me hours of fun. These days it holds my interest for a few minutes due to nostalgia but I don't consider it to be engaging. NPCs need to (and I believe will) evolve but it doesn't mean I can't be a little disappointed they aren't there just yet.

 

[Wolfox]

Yesterday happy because I exchange my Hauler, which I tried mining(My god how boring!), with a Viper!! Ready to create a machine of total distraction with mining in the options, I found my self TRAPPED in 4 solar systems!! I was mad! Spent money for getting my self trapped in a place where they were selling only VIPERS and COBRAS.
Plus I set the Medium weapons, and used to the sidewinder i thought of a BUG while doing dogfights,because they were not working!! After I realized That targets above the half of the ship can't be shot, had to keep the targets below half ship
At the end I Took of all weapons and glided to a system with a SIDEWINDER, sold the Viper and back to the nice and agile MINICOOPWINDER
To complicate my life I configured it that I have to disengage some stuff before fighting, weapons are to powerfull

Always someting new to discover and do.

 

[MorkFromOrk]

Actually, there was a bug in the Firebird version that required the Metropolitan version that fixed it on certain computers in regards to the original Elite. Also, there's 400 billions stars. This game and future content are far far from finished. Give this time to sink in and use your imagination. To name a few; wormholes, black holes, mis-jumps, new technology, new races with vastly superior jump drives you could obtain. We lack, only in our own imagination. If you yourself created something, would you continue to perfect it. I know I would.

Shok.

Use my imagination. I've been doing that for months now. It is not the answer to the concerns since imagination has to be assumed in some way to find this remotely enjoyable. The versions I played never got an update and never needed them but well done for referencing one that did. The examples you list would be great things to see in game but if all you need is imagination then why not just imaging they are already there? Put simply, there is a limit to your own imagination where you would prefer it was actually baked into the game, the only thing at issue here is that you want others to accept the limits you allow for yourself.

The shotgun hasn't worked and will never work if we apply your own logic.

 

[Siggi]

Shock horror, game mirrors real life ; everything becomes boring. Ultimate futility. Life (and games) are for the young.

This game may be short on features (relative to what?) but so is real life post-50yo (or 40, YMMV). Planetary landings will jazz things up, as will the ability to walk into a bar on a station and actually talk with other players over a local-range voice-comm (aka Arma).
If ED is an onion it's only a few layers deep right now. Over time, if it survives commercially, many more layers will be added. But it'll still be an onion, just like real life. How it tastes is in ones head, ultimately (and assuming it's not just plain rotten).

Skyrim went the same way for me after 250+ hours of play.

 

[Kernel Kwatz!]

Without "imagination" you won't experiment with all the tools at your disposal or your surroundings. If you truly see that as a, b and c; then perhaps you should do a comparison to the ops original post and how others feel. So, let's do just that, right now.

a) I see this post as a vieled insult to all of us here who do not share his sentiments, and I think it's fair to say that FD will likely feel the same way.
b) This post is dismissive because it doesn't share FD's vision of what's to come or what might be in the pre-release of which we just don't know yet. Assumptions, right?
c) I'd download it to test the next level of what FD feel we should be testing using our imagination to make it or break it and bug report it. This is what we got on the alpha and beta for, wasn't it?

Shok.

I'm sorry, shok, but I fail to see how any of this is related to what I wrote. Is your tu quoque response supposed to be a refutation of my post?

 

[MorkFromOrk]

3) We have what, ten threads about the exact same subject? Could we cut out the "is that all? I'm booooored" threads? And for that matter, if someone creates a positive thread, could the very people opening those "boooored" threads cut out telling others not to open new threads?

Please?

Does this apply to the 'I'm quite excited' threads too? I'm not quite sure about the second half of your request. I opened one of those a couple of days back and got about 9 responses. Seems if you have a problem with the game you get lots of agreement along with plenty of people telling you to shut up. If you have a positive thought then that's just too boring for people to get involved in.

The thing about new posts, and there's evidence in this thread alone, is that people might read a couple of pages and then post an answer. They might (if you're lucky) read a few of the later answers before posting. It seems that unless you want to merge every thread on the same topic you are saying that every single individual post must be read. Might make sense on the surface but people just can't be bothered to do that so post a new one.

 

[Shoklar]

Use my imagination. I've been doing that for months now. It is not the answer to the concerns since imagination has to be assumed in some way to find this remotely enjoyable. The versions I played never got an update and never needed them but well done for referencing one that did. The examples you list would be great things to see in game but if all you need is imagination then why not just imaging they are already there? Put simply, there is a limit to your own imagination where you would prefer it was actually baked into the game, the only thing at issue here is that you want others to accept the limits you allow for yourself.

The shotgun hasn't worked and will never work if we apply your own logic.

So, lets take your baseless analogy of the shotgun logic you present. First, you say you use your imagination yet, I and others are having a blast still, but strangely you are not. To explain imagination a bit better for you, you're playing Mr Braben and Ian Bells version of their original imagination. How about that. Thirty years on and we're still playing inside their imagination and now we're helping expand it and promote it and perfect it. Imagine that. Amazing isn't it. Things can be added to the game but require the imagination to create it and perfect it and deliver it in a sensible logical way. For myself at the moment, I have no limits in game. I can pretty much do what I want in it at present, which is more than I can do in other space sims or games which lack that aspect of freedom.

I'd suggest you use your own shotgun and fit it without blanks as mine fires on both barrels.

Shok.

 

[Toumal]

Does this apply to the 'I'm quite excited' threads too?

I'm fine with a ceasefire from both sides. Doesn't mean people shouldn't voice their opinions but... please... if there's plenty of existing threads, why not chime in there.

I'm not quite sure about the second half of your request. I opened one of those a couple of days back and got about 9 responses. Seems if you have a problem with the game you get lots of agreement along with plenty of people telling you to shut up. If you have a positive thought then that's just too boring for people to get involved in.

Tell you what, the way the forum is going is making it completely unattractive for me to post here. Right now things are in "negative echo chamber mode" here. People I've never seen before vigorously affirming things of varying levels of truth and severity.

The thing about new posts, and there's evidence in this thread alone, is that people might read a couple of pages and then post an answer. They might (if you're lucky) read a few of the later answers before posting. It seems that unless you want to merge every thread on the same topic you are saying that every single individual post must be read. Might make sense on the surface but people just can't be bothered to do that so post a new one.

Usually, that's called bad behavior and lazyness and is discouraged. But then again, I come from a time when topquoting emails was frowned upon...


But as far as the topic is concerned: I completely agree Elite needs long-term motivation. Some of that should come before release. Much of it can be provided with both post-release updates and injected server events.


Now if you excuse me, I have a ship to pilot

 

[MorkFromOrk]

Time to move on from this trainwreck of a thread. So, I'll just shoot it down in flames.

If this was the final release of the game with all content, you'd already be playing the full release and not beta 3.05.


Please do have a nice day.

Shok.

The only baseless part was that I called it a shotgun, you just referenced shooting. I chose shotgun because your approach was a generic blasting rather than a focussed comment as in 'shotgun approach'.

So, lets take your baseless analogy of the shotgun logic you present. First, you say you use your imagination yet, I and others are having a blast still, but strangely you are not. To explain imagination a bit better for you, you're playing Mr Braben and Ian Bells version of their original imagination. How about that. Thirty years on and we're still playing inside their imagination and now we're helping expand it and promote it and perfect it. Imagine that. Amazing isn't it. Things can be added to the game but require the imagination to create it and perfect it and deliver it in a sensible logical way. For myself at the moment, I have no limits in game. I can pretty much do what I want in it at present, which is more than I can do in other space sims or games which lack that aspect of freedom.

I'd suggest you use your own shotgun and fit it without blanks as mine fires on both barrels.

Shok.

At this point you are putting the OP's concerns onto me and your own assumption that I am not enjoying the game. I would guestimate that I would be in the top 10% of players in hours spent simply because despite my job I'm playing till late after kids go to bed. I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't enjoy it. None of this though takes away from my perfectly valid opinion that I expect to see more and have said more than once in this thread that I believe we will see more.

You decided to 'shoot down in flames' someone that wants to expand on this game, actually gave examples from other games where they thought ideas might apply, and did this all because it is unfinished. Newsflash, you missed with your shots, missed a whole bunch a salient points. You thought you had the killer line/point and as it turns out you didn't because you have accepted that more needs to be put into this game.

The ONLY ways for a thread to be ended is for a Mod to close it or for people to stop posting. So if you did fire blanks, preferably using a silencer then you would be closer to achieving your objective than you are right now.

 

[nexxo]

You do realise that people are constantly asking about the meaning of life? Entire religions are built around that question.

You can't stop people asking the question and you can't ignore the fact that people generally would like to see some kind of meaning in their lives.

Neither can you ignore the fact that people have to make their own meaning. Life doesn't come with meaning ready-made, serving suggestion in picture on box. Neither does this game.

 

[MorkFromOrk]

Neither can you ignore the fact that people have to make their own meaning. Life doesn't come with meaning ready-made, serving suggestion in picture on box. Neither does this game.

There's another religion started up right there!

 

[MadDogMurdock]

I'm not entirely sure what people expect from a sandbox space combat/trading game other than the ability to do combat and trading in a freeform fashion.

The trouble with linear story led games is that they end and no matter how much fun they were, I'm always reluctant to start again.

ED has a limited set of mini-stories but the point of completing them is not for their own sake but for the sake of helping me achieve whatever arbitrary goal I've set myself.

Yes, those stories could have more depth, but the point of Beta is to prove that the framework is functional. I have no doubt that there will be mission arcs to provide an in-game narrative and the reputation system will affect your experience, so your choices, successes, and failures will matter.

The depth of the game is in the targets I set myself, not ticking off achievement badges or getting to 100%.

As many people have said, if you see doing the same things over and over again as pointless or a grind, then perhaps this isn't the game for you.

 

[Tusken]

Has any one mentioned the NPC character tiers?

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7494

We only have the games mecanics now.

The character / lore of the game isn't in place, wel aside from the conflict in and around of Eranin.

Now i have never played the older versions of Elite, but i never seen anyone post about those games as being boring, empty or lifless.

I assume Frontier knows what there doing and make the galaxy come to life.

Sure i'm a bit worried, it seems like so mutch work and we have no idea on how far they have come along.

But i/we also don't know how long they have been working on it.

i just comfort myself with the thought that lore doesn't require a lot of testing and FD holds it back to ensure even we Alfa and beta testers still get that "just got my hand on a new game" feeling.


Fingers crossed!!

 

[Alriken]

Well the most participants of this thread counter it with: use ur imagination.
I used it and i did so all the time.

I imagined a miner, mining an asteroid belt just getting attacked by 5 pirates.​

He runs for his life and sends distress signals to his friends to help him.
He is in grave danger and trys to survive in this harsh empty space.
He gets help from a few friends the battle drags on.
They beat the pirates, etc....​

argh damn just imagined it again but guess what?
its not happening in this game,
why?
well mined for hours and didnt even see one other ship.
why also?
contacted a few friends but well they were in the same belt but other instance.
Well,

imagine this was acutally a game with multiplayer aspects.​

argh my fault again,
wasnt a multiplayer game. Just a sandbox single player game where u cruise through undiscovered space looking nearly identical to 1000s of others.
Argh again my fault.
Frontier said it is a multiplayer game.
Well where is the multiplayer?
I dont know, but imagine there is, perhaps ur funghis or other types of imaginational helpers will get u to a mind blowing answer.

Points of interest for me, or why i backed:
-nearly unlimited space to be discovered

if i discover a new star system and its nothing in it whats the point? no special npc encounters? no special asteroid beld? no hidden station?
btw if u want to discover the nothingness pls go to a telescope and cruise with ur imagination through space, bcs imagination will always blast u away if u do it right​

-multiplayer

if the developers claim it to be multiplayer i want multiplayer, not single player.
well u can at least chat with friends while ur at it, but if u cant even meet up or do sth together whats the point of multiplayer?
u dont have friends and single player is enough for u?
well then this beta version must look amazing
​

-actual content

missions everywhere, but well only trade missions most of the time though? i thought this was a game with his heart set on discovery and dogfighting,
mustve been my imagination, but well trading for days from 1 station to another is fun also,
especially the nervewrecking kicks u get when u get intercepted.....
Where are a few multi-step bounty missions? let me guess too hard to imagine?
A distress signal from an USS tells us a wave of empire spys infiltraded federation space pls check it out.
When u fly to it u see a few empire spies (3-4 sidewinders) one warping away.
U have 1 min to kill those sidewwinders and scan the resulting wake to get to the next step of the mission.
U warp through the wake to another USS. Well u cant get there without the wake of the fleeing ship.
There u find a small fleet of elites for example(2-3 cobras etc) after finishing the last elite, he drops a b or c grade weapon not buyable in hubs.
Imagine that. random content generated. fun missions since u actually have to do the missions to get the epic loot u wont get otherwise.
Must be hard to imagine a multi step mission. Well at least it seems so.
Btw imagine there where missions where u require more than one player?
WOAH. not happening. i mean its a singleplayer game where YOU and YOU alone can do anything right?
Something like it should abolutely not be in a sandbox game.
​

Many more things but well bored of writing stuff i imagined to be in here perhaps.
Well no biggy bought it can let it ripen a few years, like wine and come back again to perhaps see its not here anymore or it actually is
Who knows, at least i dont.
I just hope in a few years the developers manage to acually deliver 20% of what they promised at kickstarter.

greetz Alriken