The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[Helmut Grokenberger]

I know I am painting with very broad strokes here, and I recognize I have a strong negative opinion towards the typical ganker. I'll make my speech anyway. If it offends anyone, just write me up as an old man yelling at clouds.

And yes, I know that this is not your opinion @SteveWW57, you are playing devil's advocate.

G5 FDLs attacking CMDRs in small or less defendable ships isn't "educating" them. This is a smug excuse for their demonstration of power and superiority. If you don't submit to their rules, you don't get to play in their playground. That is the message. The only lesson learned by, say, a CMDR taking his T6 out for the first time, is: Don't play with others, because they are tools. And the notion that those players deserve to be attacked because they use the toolset given by the game that is plenty sufficient against NPCs in their sandbox (where the interdiction mini game is rigged in their favour) speaks volume about their (internet) social skills (or lack thereof).

That is a common thread I notice often - the smugness, the conveying of superiority by ridiculing everyone disagreeing, hiding behind "lols", "git guds", memes, pink hair and ugly avatars, reducing the time sunken into the game by their prey to "lol it just pixels bro", and of course lecturing that this is Elite "Dangerous". I notice that a lot when skimming through twitch streams or youtube videos (yes, I have phases where I do that, and I can't help it); they all behave like immature idiots I wouldn't want to spend time with in real life either.

There was the infamous ganker interview by the pilot, and it was more of the same: Git gud or get of my lawn, and, while the person is probably not a sociopath in real life (a pretty ridiculous accusation) and probably somewhat of a nice guy in person, the ganker in question also exuded this eerie offputting smugness and aura of feeling superior and having a blind spot, or call it lack of empathy, towards those they gank. Lolz, pixels, man. Git gud.

Very few actually do any form of roleplay beyond "lolz murderhobo", which is a cheap excuse. I actually can get behind something that is at least somewhat properly RP-driven, like PvP bounty hunting, but it must be communicated to the other side or it is just another hollow phrase.

I feel like the gankers claiming to "educate" are very dishonest and hide behind this excuse. I have checked out a few ganker streams where NONE of the killed players were given any advice, or even any communication, not to mention a friend request (which, personally, I would decline). I feel like the "we send them friend requests and tell them how to git gud" is an urban legend, at least when looking at the current ganker generation. Also, if you want to motivate them to git gud, maybe let them go with a bloody nose? No? Okay. I feel the only thing they create is either a solo player or a next generation ganker.

I know this is the world we have to live in, this is never going to change. It is still a pitty, and not implementing an open PvE mode is a mistake that, sadly, will probably never be corrected (and no, Mobius is no replacement).

I seem to be ranting a lot lately. Sorry.

 

[Ettanin]

I know this is the world we have to live in, this is never going to change. It is still a pitty, and not implementing an open PvE mode is a mistake that, sadly, will probably never be corrected (and no, Mobius is no replacement).

An OSINT and a Social -> Block a day keeps the gankers away.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

yes but we all know this can cause all kinds of instancing issues. In a perfect world, with blocking we would slowly isolate the gankers from the game world. In the real world, I would probably end up isolating myself instead.

 

[Ettanin]

yes but we all know this can cause all kinds of instancing issues.

Do you need to care if little ganky ganker gets instance issues? I don't. Not my fault if he doesn't have a network that allows incoming connections.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Oh I don't have a boat in that race anyway. My block list is empty, and i don't play in open anyway apart from when I am experimenting or, like this weekend, trying to test instancing with randoms.

My point was more the possibility of creating instancing issues for your friends, or worse, yourself. I don't care if a ganker gets instancing issues. I care about the (hypothetical) case that I cannot instance with someone because he is friends with and/or in the same instance as Ganky McGankface.

 

[Ettanin]

Oh I don't have a boat in that race anyway. My block list is empty, and i don't play in open anyway apart from when I am experimenting or, like this weekend, trying to test instancing with randoms.

My point was more the possibility of creating instancing issues for your friends, or even yourself, I don't care if a ganker gets instancing issues. I care about the (hypothetical) case that I cannot instance with someone because he is friends with and/or in the same instance as Ganky McGankface.

If your connection is capable of accepting incoming requests (dedicated IPv4 or pure dual stack [both v4 and v6 dedicated] and proper port forwards), your instance will be prioritzed for arriving commanders. If multiple instances are capable of accepting commanders, load balancing will occur. Ganky ganker will have a hard time finding (new) victims if they are on CGNAT or Dual Stack Lite.

FDev avoids using TURN relays unless absolutely necessary because they are expensive. So your block has a punishing weight if you are reachable bi-directionally. And that is why they think blocking breaks instancing, but their form of connection is already broken for that game (and other peer-to-peer based games and applications).

So, if you can, avoid cable like the plague (DSLite), don't use Starlink (CGNAT) and if you can get fiber to the home, check whether it's a pure blessing or a blessing with a curse attached (Some do CGNAT, some DSLite, some offer dedicated IPv4 addresses for a fee).

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Another perspective is that PvPers don't see taking a rebuy as significant. They are bewildered and amused by people getting in knots over it. And they have no qualms about having a friendly interaction with someone that they just brutally murdered (in a game) or were brutally murdered by (in a game), including a debrief of whatever kind on what went right or wrong. That is, notwithstanding any context of enmity for other in- or out-of-game reasons. Broad brush of course, but I am making a generalisation.

For me personally, flying exlusively in open, and having dragged my heels massively on engineering, I relish the fact that some situations are just no-go due to hostility, that there is that extreme of danger available in the game, however rarely I experience it. However annoyed I was about any particular rebuy, I don't wish away any of them. And I'm not sure I can recall one where I didn't think - "gah if only I'd done X I would have escaped/succeeded in my activity". Rather than blaming open and players in it for it being occasionally rather dangerous (although I do think FDev haven't done enough to create in-context reasons for some areas to be safer, aside from the starter zone).

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Another perspective is that PvPers don't see taking a rebuy as significant. They are bewildered and amused by people getting in knots over it. And they have no qualms about having a friendly interaction with someone that they just brutally murdered (in a game) or were brutally murdered by (in a game), including a debrief of whatever kind on what went right or wrong. That is, notwithstanding any context of enmity for other in- or out-of-game reasons. Broad brush of course, but I am making a generalisation.

For me personally, flying exlusively in open, and having dragged my heels massively on engineering, I relish the fact that some situations are just no-go due to hostility, that there is that extreme of danger available in the game, however rarely I experience it. However annoyed I was about any particular rebuy, I don't wish away any of them. And I'm not sure I can recall one where I didn't think - "gah if only I'd done X I would have escaped/succeeded in my activity". Rather than blaming open and players in it for it being occasionally rather dangerous (although I do think FDev haven't done enough to create in-context reasons for some areas to be safer, aside from the starter zone).

I recognize that "I don't want to be forced by them to play their game" is a strong motivation for me, much less than the rebuy or loss of data. I don't care about credits, like so many I am a multi billionaire (well, my CMDR is). I don't really have anything tangible to lose in the game anymore. I don't hoard bounty vouchers, I don't hold back UC or VG data, so in terms of material things, I have nothing to lose if I get destroyed.

If anything, I lose time, if only time spent jumping somewhere. I know all my musings are merely theoretical exercises, because I have never actually faced a rebuy from a ganker. I confess that for me, things are much more... mundane. Trivial, if you will. The fact is, I resent their play style and their ability to force their play style on me, and I guess by extension I resent the gankers themselves for that. Yes, it is a "me" problem.

And I resent them for being the bumholes they are. Or at least the bumhole image they curate. I don't like being forced to conform to a play style that isn't mine, and I resent that there is nothing I can do other than either play their game or quit (in the sense of going solo).

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

PvPers

I just wanted to add: It's not the PvP players in general I have a problem with. Those who stay amongst themselves and fight it out or do their RP thing - more power to them. Even killing for power play I get so long as it isn't just an excuse so slaughter someone.

It's the gankers that grind my gears, those who take nothing serious, attack everything that moves with their winged up cronies, the weaker the better, and adhere to no in-game logic whatsoever. I hate those tossers with a passion. But not all PvPers are like that. It's like that "all thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs" thingie .

(edited for sense and spelling)

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Wandering the fringes of the Bubble, I see hollow squares once or twice a week.
Never had hostilities out here, only when I decide to do a CG. The CG campers I detest and block on principal.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

As I said I did some testing on open, and I stayed there when I was out watching Stargoids #2 and #4. I was actually surprised the stargoid locations aren't riddled with gankers now that they are so close. But then again 300 ly is still alot when your FDL only jumps 4 . I met quite a few explorers out by the Stargoids, it was kind of nice. And I was pleasantly surprised that Mobius was quite busy at the last CG, usually it is empty. Although I feel like there is a bit of a player spike recently both in open and in Mobius.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

I recognize that "I don't want to be forced by them to play their game" is a strong motivation for me, much less than the rebuy or loss of data. I don't care about credits, like so many I am a multi billionaire (well, my CMDR is). I don't really have anything tangible to lose in the game anymore. I don't hoard bounty vouchers, I don't hold back UC or VG data, so in terms of material things, I have nothing to lose if I get destroyed.

If anything, I lose time, if only time spent jumping somewhere. I know all my musings are merely theoretical exercises, because I have never actually faced a rebuy from a ganker. I confess that for me, things are much more... mundane. Trivial, if you will. The fact is, I resent their play style and their ability to force their play style on me, and I guess by extension I resent the gankers themselves for that. Yes, it is a "me" problem.

And I resent them for being the bumholes they are. Or at least the bumhole image they curate. I don't like being forced to conform to a play style that isn't mine, and I resent that there is nothing I can do other than either play their game or quit (in the sense of going solo).

Well, rebuy is the time needed to recover those funds, or that you spent accumulating them, so it's always time. But if your assets and activities, and the time spent on them, have no vulnerability, no chance of failure, with the line of wealth always only able to go up, then aren't they kind of, worthless? IRL, free stuff is great, because the rest of life is a struggle. In a game where everything is so cheap it's basically free, and nothing has any actual value outside the game, and there's no adversity, what's the point? Why spend all this time? For me the point is you can risk as much as you like, because there are no real consequences, unlike real life.

Now, I'm annoyed at being blockaded from a CG as much as the next guy, but what do I get out of exposing myself to that? Well, I get the constant reminder that I'm not the most powerful thing in the galaxy, and far from it. All it takes is two pilots half as competent as me in decent ships to have a good chance to chase me out. And without that, the whole thing would be pointless, because I've achieved omnipotence . Just a bored god. But I know internally that I'm a garbage pilot, which would mean the game is a failure, and doesn't reflect a sense-making world. As it is, in open, all my efforts can be stymied. Nothing is predictable. That's what gives all the times when I do succeed their value. A dollar earnt is worth more than a dollar found. And in a cutthroat galaxy, why would I expect the local gangbangers to be polite, or even the odds? Often the story is more interesting than "ganked at a CG" too, of course.

Re: resenting playstyle, I also get annoyed - when people oppose my activities in solo/PG. They're similarly forcing me to conform to their playstyle, which is doing stuff to make one abstract bar higher than another in a UI, while seeing no-one. It has all the gameplay value of a random number generator, but took tens of people to simulate it. If only there was a block function for that...

 

[Rebel Yell]

Re: resenting playstyle, I also get annoyed - when people oppose my activities in solo/PG. They're similarly forcing me to conform to their playstyle, which is doing stuff to make one abstract bar higher than another in a UI, while seeing no-one. It has all the gameplay value of a random number generator, but took tens of people to simulate it. If only there was a block function for that...

Couldn't find better words... but you know, from their echo chamber they can't hear you.

 

[Darrack]

In a game where everything is so cheap it's basically free, and nothing has any actual value outside the game, and there's no adversity, what's the point? Why spend all this time? For me the point is you can risk as much as you like, because there are no real consequences, unlike real life.

No game adversely effects real life, if it did you wouldn't play it.
However gankers do effect my real life, if i only have a few hours of free time to mine stuff and enjoy myself then some basement muppet wants to ruin that for what you say has no real value, then whats the gankers point other than to grief?
In my universe that idiot doesn't exist.
Don't get me started on CGs, when known gankers switch to Solo to do their hauling what does that tell you?
I would do Open more but to be honest i spend more time blocking folks than actually playing it ends up like solo anyway.

O7

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

No game adversely effects real life, if it did you wouldn't play it.
However gankers do effect my real life, if i only have a few hours of free time to mine stuff and enjoy myself then some basement muppet wants to ruin that for what you say has no real value, then whats the gankers point other than to grief?
In my universe that idiot doesn't exist.
Don't get me started on CGs, when known gankers switch to Solo to do their hauling what does that tell you?
I would do Open more but to be honest i spend more time blocking folks than actually playing it ends up like solo anyway.

O7

I guess I think that you are choosing to let that experience be ruinous of your play session. It seems like the issue is that you have prescribed the experience you will accept, and deviation from that with any unpredictable element violates the prescription. I guess I'm contesting then that if one's progress in the game is entirely predictable, with no adversity to knock it off track, and a sense that the progress might more efficiently be attained with a collection of simple bot scripts, then that progress is of little value. And the time is more sorely wasted than if you'd spent the whole time gauntleting gankers.

The fact that someone's enjoyment involves inflicting detriments on my progress in-game doesn't mean that a) that has to negate my enjoyment, it may even enhance it (case in point, any competitive pastime, including contested powerplay with both sides in solo) or b) I have to resent their enjoyment (NPCs won't take on the role of breaking my illusion of power, so players have to). At the same time I don't think the game controls the "volume " of that kind of interaction too well, specifically at CGs.

My approach to playing depending on my mood is a bit different. If I want a peaceful session then I choose an activity to match. So run some backwater BGS, do some powerplay prep or fortification, mine, explore etc. That way, activities maintain "integrity" - those that should be dangerous (e.g. hauling cargo to a hotly contested powerplay expansion) remain so, and others are only as dangerous or unpredictable as they should be. It's not imposed by me using artificial rules (modes etc.). That's important for me to enjoy the game world.

I guess my attitude is a bit like role playing, where there's a degree of separation from the in-game character. Although I can be very involved with their "story", I'm still spectating to a degree. No matter how bad anything that happens to my CMDR, I need never be offended or damaged by that, since it's happening to someone that doesn't exist.

Inevitably lines blur there but it places a tight limit on how much I need be affected, and gives me control over that. In fact, bad things that happen have dramatic value. When I log in, I'm not just ticking a shopping list of things that need to happen before I can consider it a good session, I'm jumping on the merrygoround of an internally consistent world that may not agree with my plans. Single player games that can simulate that experience get lauded. In multiplayer games there seems to be an issue with it often being players that disagree with your plans, who may also have an entirely different attitude to the game.

 

[Riverside]

Don't get me started on CGs, when known gankers switch to Solo to do their hauling what does that tell you?

This sentence struck a chord with me, I've been mulling this over.

I think what this tells me is that 'they' are going with the flow, accepting that the modes are a free choice & that you can switch any time you like (don't combat log).

I don't have any IRL friends that still play, so all the Cmdrs on my friend list (the only ones where I have first hand experience of what mode they choose) were met in Open. If I see a Cmdr playing in Solo I take that as a 'do not disturb' sign, and leave them to it for that session. My assumption is that they want to be left alone, whether that be for some social reason (eg they are in a bad mood) or are just doing engineering, mats grinding or whatever they are not doing an activity where they want to meet others.

I think that if a player is getting frustrated by constant undesirable social interactions, and refuses to accept the compromise that sometimes no interaction is preferable to the possibility of undesirable interaction they are going against the flow, being stubborn, wanting others to change to suit them.

If I want to go to founders to buy a new ship say, I'm going there to buy a ship not to fight through a blockade. I'll happily switch to solo & have a less eventful trip. But once it's built if I want to test it, I know I can switch to open & someone will be happy to oblige.

I am glad I have that choice, I don't find it frustrating at all.

 

[ethelred]

What, if anything, would make you play in Open more @Helmut Grokenberger ?

Most of what you have described in your posts I have the opposite reaction to, in that I see that as an overt challenge to me and my flying skill. Yes, killing n00bs in a G5 murderboat is easy enough - but to successfully run the blockade in an un-engineered T6, to me at least, takes more skill. Of course, the competition is only with myself, I’m sure they neither know or care that their so-called (by me) “blockade” is being bypassed.

I don’t find NPCs challenging and whilst Open could be improved in many ways, the threat given (only) by other CMDRs is what keeps the game alive for me.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

What, if anything, would make you play in Open more @Helmut Grokenberger ?

Most of what you have described in your posts I have the opposite reaction to, in that I see that as an overt challenge to me and my flying skill. Yes, killing n00bs in a G5 murderboat is easy enough - but to successfully run the blockade in an un-engineered T6, to me at least, takes more skill. Of course, the competition is only with myself, I’m sure they neither know or care that their so-called (by me) “blockade” is being bypassed.

I don’t find NPCs challenging and whilst Open could be improved in many ways, the threat given (only) by other CMDRs is what keeps the game alive for me.

Fair question. I don't really have a good answer.

Most importantly, I do not care for challenges in my games. That doesn't mean I want to play easy mode all the time; but I want a choice in my challenges, if that makes sense. I don't play Elite to challenge me, or to "git gud", and I have no interest to compete against other players in a battle of skill, or whatever you may call it. Elite is my relaxing time so to speak. For instance, I find great pleasure in just flying around in VR, even doing nothing in particular. I pick some random destination I go. I like it more as an experience, if you will. I love visiting lore sites and take in the audio logs, and I want to do that without hobos camping their and blowing me up. So I do that in Solo or Mobius.

That doesn't mean I don't raise my skill ceiling, but I do it on my terms. I don't find NPCs particularely challenging either unless they gang up on me, or I am in an underpowered ship. But if they do gang up on me, they do so because I let them, like doing pirate assassinations or wing massacre missions solo. If I get interdicted, I get to choose if I want to fight or evade. Against other players, you don't get that choice. You either submit and fight or flee, or you loose. I don't like to be not in control.

When I began playing CZs I wouldn't go there in anything else than my Über-Corvette with 3.5k hull, 3.5k shields and two Class 7 SCBs, because in anything else I always got handed my behind. Then I stopped doing CZs because I got bored.

On the last CG I learned that obviously my skill must have improved, because I went there with mediums with a third of defenses of my Corvette and still never lost the shields. Plus I learned that it is really fun to clear a CZ in a wing. So yes, I am probably improving, and maybe some day I will be "gud" enough to not be bothered by those seeking to satisfy their need for challenge against me . I will certainly never be a PvP player, because I'm just too lazy and too slow for that.

What would get me to play more in open? The obvious boring answer is an open PvE mode, which will not happen. Maybe the odd special occasion would get me out of Solo or PG, like because I want to participate in some event or something. I did that when chasing the UIAs, Iately I went there in open because I wanted to see what happened and who and how many people would do the same silliness as I. In a way I've been opening myself up for playing with others, which I had just no interest in for the first year or two of my pilot's career. I've come out of that shell a bit, been playing the last CG in the astonishingly busy Mobius and winging up more often with random people.

Sorry, I my answers tend to be a bit long and windy. I hope you get my point.

 

[ethelred]

It's a good answer.

There's no right or wrong to play ED - ultimately it must be your own choice ofc.

That the game caters for so many playstyles is overall a positive, even given the fact they they are often in conflict, in game and on here.

 

[SteveWW57]

There's no right or wrong to play ED - ultimately it must be your own choice ofc.

Except that in open you do not get the choice about being interdicted and attacked by another player. The PvPer gets the choice, and you have to go along.

Steve