Gankers mocking me about my pronouns would be charastically insignificant. Many of the people who I've met amd gotten to know seem pretty chill about using my pronouns when asking and those that do usually just end up being blocked. The consequences can already be dealt with in the ingame infrastructure and probably wont add much division amongst the general community who'd probably wont care much to begin with.
I wanna ask a huge favor of the game devs for the nonbinary community
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As a non-binary user, I have some thoughts about this:
1) I am actually very happy with the existing setup - I don't recall anyone in-game using any pronoun at all to refer to my commander, and that's very comfortable. And it's been that way since 1984.
2) More flexibility in Holo-Me appearances would be good, but (a) that goes way beyond questions of gender and (b) it's a lot more coding work, so I'm not going to stress about it.
3) Some of you who say "I don't care about your gender identity, but stop rubbing it in my face" are telling on yourselves. We're not required to be invisible; 'live and let live' entails letting us live in the same shared spaces as the rest of you.
4) Singular 'they' is well-established in English, and pretending otherwise is prescriptive nonsense. No-one is pretending to be a monarch or a nation or whatever. Get over it.
5) As far as I can recall, the game doesn't gender the generated NPCs either. The only place I recall seeing gendered pronouns is in Galnet articles. And in those, diverse sexual orientation is already well-represented (Jupiter Rochester's separation from his husband, for example); it would be nice to see non-binary representation as well, but only as and when it can be introduced casually; the last thing I'd want is a big fanfare.
6) ETA: My partner has suggested the possibility of free simple pride flag decals, which I think could work.
1) I am actually very happy with the existing setup - I don't recall anyone in-game using any pronoun at all to refer to my commander, and that's very comfortable. And it's been that way since 1984.
2) More flexibility in Holo-Me appearances would be good, but (a) that goes way beyond questions of gender and (b) it's a lot more coding work, so I'm not going to stress about it.
3) Some of you who say "I don't care about your gender identity, but stop rubbing it in my face" are telling on yourselves. We're not required to be invisible; 'live and let live' entails letting us live in the same shared spaces as the rest of you.
4) Singular 'they' is well-established in English, and pretending otherwise is prescriptive nonsense. No-one is pretending to be a monarch or a nation or whatever. Get over it.
5) As far as I can recall, the game doesn't gender the generated NPCs either. The only place I recall seeing gendered pronouns is in Galnet articles. And in those, diverse sexual orientation is already well-represented (Jupiter Rochester's separation from his husband, for example); it would be nice to see non-binary representation as well, but only as and when it can be introduced casually; the last thing I'd want is a big fanfare.
6) ETA: My partner has suggested the possibility of free simple pride flag decals, which I think could work.
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A bit off topic but I hope you don't mind this. I do try to do what I can to respect other people's personal wishes.
I have a colleague who's nb who just [edit: just, as in only one wish, not as in recently] asked not to be called Sir. My job is stressful and I have lots of colleagues and I struggle to remember names at the best of times and especially when under pressure.
When I see my colleage I often can't remember their name and greet with 'mate' and then feel conscious about it
I call everyone mate/dude. I notice many colleagues (and people in general) of both sexes call each other mate and dude. I even remember an article about dude and mate being Hyper(?) nouns because people will often refer to inanimate objects e.g. toasters as matey / dude for instance when you have a brain freeze.
But both dude and mate still seem masculine.
What is the inclusive collective pronoun that I can greet people with, when I don't really know them or have a brain freeze?
"Mate!" "Hey dude"
Or is something like mate/dude still OK?
Thanks
I have a colleague who's nb who just [edit: just, as in only one wish, not as in recently] asked not to be called Sir. My job is stressful and I have lots of colleagues and I struggle to remember names at the best of times and especially when under pressure.
When I see my colleage I often can't remember their name and greet with 'mate' and then feel conscious about it
I call everyone mate/dude. I notice many colleagues (and people in general) of both sexes call each other mate and dude. I even remember an article about dude and mate being Hyper(?) nouns because people will often refer to inanimate objects e.g. toasters as matey / dude for instance when you have a brain freeze.
But both dude and mate still seem masculine.
What is the inclusive collective pronoun that I can greet people with, when I don't really know them or have a brain freeze?
"Mate!" "Hey dude"
Or is something like mate/dude still OK?
Thanks
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Drifting off into the off-topic and bizzarre here:
More seriously: it will depend on the person. Can't you just ask them?
My experience is that on balance, and heaven knows it's a diverse field, 'mate' will be seen as more neutral than 'dude'. But seriously - just ask them.
Have you seen Lori Jameson?
Har de har har.Have you seen Lori Jameson?
No, a butch-looking woman is not non-binary representation.
Then what is? I mean what do you even mean with that?
Please provide an example of what "non-binary" representation would look like in Elite.
It seems like really important issue to you, while most people don't care if you get their pronouns right while talking with random people over some ingame chat - I mean, for me that's the least important thing (not to mention that it seems to me others would use those mostly while talking about you, not when talking to you- am I wrong here?) Many male players use female avatars not because they feel feminine, but because they prefer to look at pretty face - they don't bother with how you call them, or at least they own their choices.
The only thing that identifies "you" in any way is your choice of avatar (which is not you, but your character in game) and it has stereotypical gender qualities. There could be 3rd option, I guess, but it would have to be an obvious cyborg, because otherwise anyone could mistake it for either male or female depending on the time of day.
Having only those two options to choose from is like playing fantasy RPG, where you can play only as elf or dwarf, but not human. You don't go and explain to everyone that you're not an elf in RL for example. If some girl really wants people to know she's not actually a male dwarf, then she needs to tell people that - the same with you.
Just a mention of an NPC with personal pronouns other than 'he' or 'she'.
That's all it would take; it's straightforward and unobtrusive if done right. You don't need to spell it out beyond that. Is Jupiter Rochester bisexual, or gay, or something else? We don't know, and it doesn't matter. It just came up in the course of the narrative that he had a husband.
I don't think I am articulating myself well. I guess it's quite situational.
I'm hoping for advice for a collective noun for groups or when I can't remember or when in passing.
Something that I can adopt and call everyone regardless so I don't have to remember.
![[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos](https://d2aefvhu2f0gi9.cloudfront.net/data/avatars/m/234/234580.jpg?1612617334){kind=avatar}
'Friend'.
Did you just assume their gender? How rude! /s
Does it ring a bell how ridiculous this whole conversation is or not still?
You had some good points, but I want to take issue with this somewhat. Plenty of people in real life have ambiguous or androgynous gender presentation, and being possibly mistaken for one or other binary gender is a part of that experience in reality, for better or worse. It's virtually impossible to present so unambiguously that all observers are guaranteed to interpret your gender correctly. That's just life.
Emojis recently introduced gender neutral options for a range of images that previously only had 'male' and 'female' options, and some of those could certainly be 'mistaken' to be binary-gendered. I don't think it matters much.
That said, there are canonically cyborgs in-setting, so more cyberware is one of the non-gender-related enhancements I'd like to see to Holo-Mes.
P
But NPC's currently don't even use gender based pronouns. They are either commanders, engineers, or pirates. There's very few cases where pronouns even enter into it.
You want some special exception so you can feel more "represented"? This is a game not Tumblr. Don't you feel you're just creating controversy to get attention with this stunt?
But NPC's currently don't even use gender based pronouns. They are either commanders, engineers, or pirates. There's very few cases where pronouns even enter into it.
You want some special exception so you can feel more "represented"? This is a game not Tumblr. Don't you feel you're just creating controversy to get attention with this stunt?
Oh look, another hilarious, original joke about gender. Get some new material.
And remember: I'm arguing against the specific proposal in the OP. This isn't a neat debate with two simplistically defined culture-war factions; it's a subtle and somewhat tricky question of game implementation. Try engaging with that.
Did you read my post where I pointed out that as far as I can remember, gendered pronouns are only used in Galnet articles? I like the game's existing generally neutral tone on gender. It's really good! (Which is why I didn't start this thread - I don't think any code change on this point is needed.)
Thanks
Nodding to strangers when in a pub saying:
'alright mate',
'alright'
'Another nod'
'Mate'
'pleased to meet you'
And then later, if we end up spending time with any of them, asking (or being asked) for preferences sounds less awkward and more natural.
'Mate' is good thanks.
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