15 Sec Log Out Timer is being abused to avoid PvP (Seeking Genuine Feedback)

Wow OP must have a massive backache with all the salt he has been packing around.

I wonder what percentage of his encounters this actually happens, he probably get more players that actually CL than legally log. Another Commander who wants the rules changed to fit his style of play. Right now they can't even deal properly with combat logging but lets force more players to combat log by making the legal method they used unavailable.

Sorry, Suck it up buttercup and go back to enjoying the game. Tired topic.

Caliber_az
 
I think if you were to take it so narrowly as "planned PvP only", it's a really clear lack of understanding for PvP as a whole - and frankly why have Open mode? This whole "push PvPers towards quietly doing their thing in the corner" mentality gets boring fast..

I'm really wondering about the attitude of "i want to fight with people in this game, who don't want to fight with me".

To topic: I actually prefer people logging out before an engagement, instead of logging out after attacking me, me firing back, and when i got their shields down, logging out to avoid destructing. that is poor sportsmanship - but even that is neither gamebreaking nor against the rules, if they exit via the menu.

but not getting into a fight because logging out before a fight? isn't that as much of a clear communication as interdicting someone with the promise of destruction?

i don't think we need more ways to force people into a fight, but more ways to find people who are looking for a fight, or the challenge of surviving an encounter, etc.
 
I'm really wondering about the attitude of "i want to fight with people in this game, who don't want to fight with me".

To topic: I actually prefer people logging out before an engagement, instead of logging out after attacking me, me firing back, and when i got their shields down, logging out to avoid destructing. that is poor sportsmanship - but even that is neither gamebreaking nor against the rules, if they exit via the menu.

but not getting into a fight because logging out before a fight? isn't that as much of a clear communication as interdicting someone with the promise of destruction?

i don't think we need more ways to force people into a fight, but more ways to find people who are looking for a fight, or the challenge of surviving an encounter, etc.

Actually that's a good point. Is logging out during an interdiction actually 'combat logging'? I mean, in order to combat log, there should be actual, y'know, combat.

Is an interdiction classed as combat? I know some of the usual forum suspects will in fact say it IS combat - that won't surprise me at all. But is trying to pull another player out of supercruise actual combat - that's the question. I say FSD interdiction is more akin to a car chase where you're trying to force the other car off the road - technically you might class that as combat, but in this game, you're not shooting at each other during the interdiction event - that would be the equivalent of trying to force the other car off the road and shooting at them.

Nevertheless, goemon raises a damned good point - that isn't it better to have someone log out before an actual live fire engagement, rather than during it?
 
I don't play in Open, but personally, I don't think combat logging is something that should be punished. Avoiding combat is something I actively do, by playing solo. I think the 15 second logout timer should be dropped (make it instant). If you want to play PvP, that's fine, just make sure that BOTH players are interested in PvP.
 
'at any point' probably didn't take in to consideration that you can resist interdiction for longer than 15 secs by putting full throttle and then logging out.

So in effect, Frontier are saying Combat Logging is fine using this method then. And yes, I do refer to the 15-sec log out as 'combat logging' when used in this manner. If combat was already initiated, and I was winning, and the target wanted to log out, then that's fine. I have 15 secs to do the job. But logging out at the start of interdiction will negate combat entirely and therefore is combat logging.

- - - Updated - - -



please see the vids I linked in the opening topic.

Well, if you are starting an inderdiction there is no combat in place yet. Therefore it is no combat logging.
It is your intention to open up a fight. But there is no combat. There is an offending attack, yes, but no combat at all.
And to start a fight it needs two. Hence pushing the logout swith is legal.

Regards,
Miklos
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I'm really wondering about the attitude of "i want to fight with people in this game, who don't want to fight with me".

It's a difficult one - as every player will be attacked by NPCs regardless of any steps that they have taken to minimise / avoid exposure to PvP - yet every player bought a game where being attacked by NPCs is going to happen - and, obviously, some players (the majority from what one of the Devs has said) don't get involved in PvP.

i don't think we need more ways to force people into a fight, but more ways to find people who are looking for a fight, or the challenge of surviving an encounter, etc.

Exactly.
 
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Some people don't want to PvP. That is their good right ("blaze you own trail" and all that). Letting the 15 sec timer start after interdiction completes makes no difference. They will not fight you and will leave the game ASAP anyway. Just accept other people's choices and move on.
 
In real life , If I see someone I don't like , I will cross the road, or sidewalk log as it would be know by you and that wouldn't be allowed. In real life if someone started to shoot a gun at me , I would probably do anything I could to get away ,its called the "flight" component of fight or flight. This is not a combat game , thought that is an option. so in removing oneself from the combat and until such time as FD make it impossible to log off legitimately then that's what we are permitted to do in this situation. You can lobby on the forums as much as you want for a limit on a players ability to do this , but you are wasting your breath, and you are quite welcome to do so.
 
It's a difficult one - as every player will be attacked by NPCs regardless of any steps that they have taken to minimise / avoid exposure to PvP - yet every player bought a game where being attacked by NPCs is going to happen - and, obviously, some players (the majority from what one of the Devs has said) don't get involved in PvP.



Exactly.

If the chances of winning/suviving a fight against a PvP-er were the same as winning/surviving against an NPC then more people would choose to fight, I think. But that is not the case. There has been a huge gap between PvP-ers and other players because PvP-ers specialise in combat. The introduction of The Engineers made that gap wider still, so I guess even less players want to fight in PvP now. It's a logical consequence of the way the game was designed.
 
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In the context of completely free-for-all open play, your suggestion - or at least the spirit of your suggestion - would contribute to pull an already great, fundamental imbalance in the wrong direction.

PVPers in general need other players and a way to compete against them to be satisfied in a game. Other players prefer socializing in a more cooperative manner and don't feel the need to kill human players one bit. Others still don't even care to socialize at all, preferring to hunt for all achievements or simply play along a made-up narrative of their own.

What many players fail to understand (not just in the PVP community, mind you, the problem seems to affect everyone equally) is that you can't make a game as vast as FD, that offers itself to so many playstyles and calls to so many different player types as ED, and not cater to all the available playstyles. And here's where things go downhill :

The "Killers", those who need to negatively compete (By negatively I mean to destroy them in some manner) with others, since it's their main drive to play, will end up having globally more combat experience than the other player types. Inasmuch as equipment can be customized, theirs will be precisely tuned to better counter and vanquish other players, while the achievers/socializers/explorers will be neither as skilled nor as well-equipped to actually do PVP. In most cases, a serious PVPer who engages someone "against their will", or without asking first, does so against someone of lower skill with worse equipment. PVPers don't necessarily always see things that way, but their preys - believe me - their preys always know what's coming for them.

To the fact that players of other types will pretty much always be at a disadvantage versus PVPers, which implies they will mostly fail in pushing them back, comes with another, worse drawback : PVP is downleveling. Before the threat of violence, a peaceful individual can become either violent or extinct.

An explorer who meets a PVPer cannot force the PVPer to come with him and explore.

An achiever who meets a PVPer cannot force the PVPer to grind imperial rank with him.

A trader who meets a PVPer dosen't get to force the PVPer to grab a T-9 and ferry slaves from Marrallang to Jumuzgo.

A group of socializers who encounter a FDL gank squad while they are steamrolling a HazRes or something - cannot force the PVPers to join them.


But in every one of those cases, the PVPers get to systematically impose their own way of playing upon everyone - either by outright killing players who'd ignore them, or by forcing them to defend themselves - which is exactly where the PVPers start having real fun.


It is exactly this (known and well-documented) logical loophole of open game worlds that pushes so many people doing CGs or the Ram Tah exploration missions to solo mode. All playstyles aren't protected in the same way and cannot all have the space they need. Most online games - and especially the most successful ones - choose to fix the problem entirely by putting the Killers in a box, away from everyone not interested, and it works marvellously well ; non-compulsory/toggleable PVP simply allows all the people who aren't interested in competition to come out and socialize.

This is not an issue of "people don't want to Git Gud so they can't see how fun it is - if they did try, they'd love it!". It is an issue of "Those people do not like PVP at all, and to force them is to force them into a form of play they don't like", which is very bad for the game as a whole because it breeds resentment among different player groups. It's a cruel twist of fate indeed that Achievers and explorers and traders and the like should be a necessary part of the PVPers' gameplay, but that PVPers are in no way a necessary part of anyone else's playstyle...


And considering the previous statements, and that the only legal way for those whose playstyles are being trodden upon is to wait 15 seconds while praying they don't get blown up, I'd say that to the contrary, PVPers are getting a pretty sweet deal right now, and are wrong to ask for everyone else to be even more constrained.
 
No sure what all the fuss is about, when I get attacked I just wait for the dialog box that says "do you wish to take part in PvP combat" and press the "no" button.

Oh wait that doesn't happen, it's hidden under the escape key isn't it!

At least we don't have PvP'er complaining bitterly about forced to explore, that would generate torrents of salty tears, oh wait I saw that yesterday in a thread, "oh why do we have to travel 5kly to access X engineer" oh and I also saw "why do have to mine X to get access to Y engineer, I'm a combat fighter dammit!"

Hmm, maybe if they locked more things behind exploration and mining it would be more even. Empire and Federation ranks, go mining. System permits, explore x thousand systems (and return with the data!).

Before everyone starts jumping up and down (talking to you PvP'ers) that wasn't serious, I don't think such things should be locked behind profession specific activities, I also don't think PvP'ers should be able to force anyone they want to PvP, there are better ways to do things but for some reason all PvP'ers seem locked into that one paradigm, prevent people being able to escape certain death by my engineered multi-blatters of doooom!

Meh, let people log, that way you only get to fight people who are willing to fight.
 
Is it player versus player or player on player, in this circumstance.

If both parties have agreed to pvp then yeah its a problem, if its a space mugging then no its not a problem or at least one I dont have a problem with.

Open is not the be all and end all of this game nor is it the playground of the chosen few, just because your in open does it mean you have to consent to others game play. They might only be in open to met and greet people of the same ilk as themselves, but have no interest in pvp or might have an interest in pvp but might be heading to that station to dock for the night, someone comes along and they think sod this I'll log out now as I cant be bothered with it.
 
but have no interest in pvp or might have an interest in pvp but might be heading to that station to dock for the night, someone comes along and they think sod this I'll log out now as I cant be bothered with it.

Which then brings into question abuse of a mechanic. We have a 15 second timer because sometimes people just have to log out, yes there are circumstances where you have no choice. If it gets disabled during X it becomes a problem. If PvP'ers decide to abuse the mechanic that disables logout during interdiction by chain interdicting someone so they can't logout, leaving them the only option to combat log by pulling the plug, they can then use that combat log behaviour to unfairly get people banned.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
.... it would be the same if the "reset the exit timer every time a player's ship is fired on (by another player)" proposal was introduced.
 
In the context of completely free-for-all open play, your suggestion - or at least the spirit of your suggestion - would contribute to pull an already great, fundamental imbalance in the wrong direction.

<Snip>

Well put!

Have some rep. :)

PvP is the only aspect of the game that can be forced on to another player.

Imagine how mad PvP groups would be if they had to go exploring for 5 months prior to each attack?
Or mine 500t of panite.
Or do one of those trade loops 50 times?

That said, I enjoy the thrill of PvP encounters most of the time, so I don't log (intentionally! Damn internet) and I'll bite back, IF it's not clearly 1 sided.
Which unfortunately, the majority of attacks are. So I just end up high waking out.

As I've stated before, my only real "issue" with PvP, is the vastly different outfitting for it, compared to PvE.

A dedicated PvP ship will always outmatched a PvE ship, even a combat one.

While it would never work in a live environment, if everyone just loaded their ships up to do a bit of everything, like I generally do, you'd actually see a lot more people fighting back. :p

And this is off topic. Sort of.

Fix the PvP/PvE loadout balance and a lot less people will log. Lol
 
As I've stated before, my only real "issue" with PvP, is the vastly different outfitting for it, compared to PvE.

A dedicated PvP ship will always outmatched a PvE ship, even a combat one.

While it would never work in a live environment, if everyone just loaded their ships up to do a bit of everything, like I generally do, you'd actually see a lot more people fighting back. :p

And this is off topic. Sort of.

Fix the PvP/PvE loadout balance and a lot less people will log. Lol

This is not off topic, this is by far one of the most sane posts in this thread, touching the very essence of the problem. I never logged on a human commander when in Open doing powerplay activities and had been obliterated a few times. If we were in "boring" stock ships just differing in loadouts, I could work with that and put up a fight (have some experience in combat flight sims of various ilk). But faced by an engineered killing machine which will eradicate you in two superpenetrator rail shots there is either run or die. Like someone mentioned "fight or flight". I mean everyone does PvE combat - you almost have to do it (or flee everytime). But the PvP loadouts are vastly different and inpractical for any other kind of gameplay. I know its hard, but I would like the PvP to be more skill-based instead of timesink-and-rng-based. And no, it's not skill to game the rngineers in excel to create god-uberships. It is only a difference of time invested in that particular activity.
 
See, the problem that exists in your logic is that the game cannot discriminate between who should and should not be able to exit the game. Your stated position is equally abusive of people that:

1. Are not Power Players
2. Are not Wanted
3. Are Wanted because an NPC zoomed into their line of fire while they shooting legitimate targets.

While I do not disagree that the videos you displayed are an abuse of the mechanics, your solution is the equivalent of arming the police exclusively with grenade launchers and fragmentation grenades.

***foomp*** ***BOOM***

"I got the bad guy!"

"Yep, and the 50 innocent people standing around him. Congrats!"

the game, in my opinion, should disable the log out method (access to the menu) during interdiction.

This resolves everything.

the game already disables the chat menu when you get interdicted (how annoying), so it should disable the 'esc to menu' option.

Indeed, and while you are granting unfair advantages, we will need to add a function to the game so that the interdictee is offered the chance to just cause your ship to explode. I recommend a %50 success rate with success crediting the interdictee for your kill.

That way, both sides are equally abused.
 
PVP Logout

Gotta agree with the group. Don't like that PVP players think being a &%$#$# is fun or a good way to play. Also, I have to say I think Big ships should be slow and tanky with bigger more effective weapons. Small ships should be fast and maneuverable. So when you tank in with your PVP FAS build, my ASP should be able to run the heck away in any real scenario. EG I think an ASP should be 2 or 3 times faster than a tank build FAS. Armor is heavy. So IMHO stop whining that you cant force players to fight in a non fighting build after spending a month heading to the core and back. Honestly, in PVP you should not be able to attach a player that is not of a similar build at all. Imagine how FUN it is to just finally be able to afford your first Python but not a good build. Along comes a PVP thug and kills the ship you just spent a few weeks ranking up to. If you are going to play as a pirate, you should get a reputation as a pirate and be denied any ports, except perhaps a few "secret" pirate ports.
 
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