15 Sec Log Out Timer is being abused to avoid PvP (Seeking Genuine Feedback)

[itwasntme]

.... except, unlike Combat Logging (per Frontier's definition), delayed menu exit is legitimate at any time - not just when the player is not being interdicted.

yeah but the difference here is that a CMDR who logs out at the point of interdiction will completely avoid combat. The person doing the interdiction can not complete the interdiction process within 15 secs.

The log out method should not be available during interdiction.

The player should either log out before interdiction, or immediately after interdiction.

otherwise, fight and win the interdiction, or submit and log out.

being able to log out at the start of the interdiction is in effect the same as combat logging at the start of a fight. only difference being that one is 'legit' and one is 'bannable', but the end result is the same. The interdicted player instantly disappears when interdiction completes.

I mean come on, more and more people are discovering this and are using it to avoid PvP because 'frontier say its ok'. But that's only because Frontier haven't anticipated it being used in this manner.

15 sec log out is fine. I am fine with this. Seriously, I know that once interdiction is complete then at any point the CMDR can initiate the 15 sec. so I'll attempt to kill them asap.

but being able to log out before interdiction completes means that there is no chance of any attempt at PvP. at all.

- - - Updated - - -

You simply need to GIT GUD, OP. It is perfectly possible to destroy a ship under 15 seconds. Proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=365B43T9_0g

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5xriu1/dead_in_15_seconds_a_postmortem/

PS: muahahaha </joke>

yeah but if they hit the log out timer at the start of the interdiction, then you have 0 seconds to kill them because they would've logged out 'legitimately' by the time the interdiction completes.

 

[Chrystoph]

you're probably thinking, so what? Nothing wrong with that.


That's where you're wrong. This is a huge problem from a PvP perspective.

See, the problem that exists in your logic is that the game cannot discriminate between who should and should not be able to exit the game. Your stated position is equally abusive of people that:

1. Are not Power Players
2. Are not Wanted
3. Are Wanted because an NPC zoomed into their line of fire while they shooting legitimate targets.

While I do not disagree that the videos you displayed are an abuse of the mechanics, your solution is the equivalent of arming the police exclusively with grenade launchers and fragmentation grenades.

***foomp*** ***BOOM***

"I got the bad guy!"

"Yep, and the 50 innocent people standing around him. Congrats!"

 

[itwasntme]

See, the problem that exists in your logic is that the game cannot discriminate between who should and should not be able to exit the game. Your stated position is equally abusive of people that:

1. Are not Power Players
2. Are not Wanted
3. Are Wanted because an NPC zoomed into their line of fire while they shooting legitimate targets.

While I do not disagree that the videos you displayed are an abuse of the mechanics, your solution is the equivalent of arming the police exclusively with grenade launchers and fragmentation grenades.

***foomp*** ***BOOM***

"I got the bad guy!"

"Yep, and the 50 innocent people standing around him. Congrats!"

the game, in my opinion, should disable the log out method (access to the menu) during interdiction.

This resolves everything.

the game already disables the chat menu when you get interdicted (how annoying), so it should disable the 'esc to menu' option.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

yeah but the difference here is that a CMDR who logs out at the point of interdiction will completely avoid combat. The person doing the interdiction can not complete the interdiction process within 15 secs.

The log out method should not be available during interdiction.

The player should either log out before interdiction, or immediately after interdiction.

otherwise, fight and win the interdiction, or submit and log out.

being able to log out at the start of the interdiction is in effect the same as combat logging at the start of a fight. only difference being that one is 'legit' and one is 'bannable', but the end result is the same. The interdicted player instantly disappears when interdiction completes.

I mean come on, more and more people are discovering this and are using it to avoid PvP because 'frontier say its ok'. But that's only because Frontier haven't anticipated it being used in this manner.

15 sec log out is fine. I am fine with this. Seriously, I know that once interdiction is complete then at any point the CMDR can initiate the 15 sec. so I'll attempt to kill them asap.

but being able to log out before interdiction completes means that there is no chance of any attempt at PvP. at all.

- - - Updated - - -



yeah but if they hit the log out timer at the start of the interdiction, then you have 0 seconds to kill them because they would've logged out 'legitimately' by the time the interdiction completes.

Perhaps the player being interdicted simply doesn't wish to be interdicted by another player or to be involved in combat with another player - in that case, perhaps they should have played in a mode other than Open, for which I very much agree with you that this can in fact be annoying to the rabid PvP'er who is being potentially robbed of the explosion of another player.

The only advice I can offer to you is that if it's really that annoying that you are being robbed of an explosion in a computer game, then maybe - just maybe - there are more important things in this world to get unhappy about, and that some introspection is needed to re-evaluate one's life and to ponder if indeed, spending your life's time and energy in achieving the explosion of a fellow human being's virtual space pixels is worth worrying about.

After all, it really is just a video game. I say the same introspection spiel about people worrying about long hair in the game, or people worrying about the flight model (that flight model one is one I was very much guilty of about 2 years ago!), or people worrying about realism. Or people confusing realism with immersion. Or whatever.

 

[itwasntme]

Perhaps the player being interdicted simply doesn't wish to be interdicted by another player or to be involved in combat with another player - in that case, perhaps they should have played in a mode other than Open, for which I very much agree with you that this can in fact be annoying to the rabid PvP'er who is being potentially robbed of the explosion of another player.

The only advice I can offer to you is that if it's really that annoying that you are being robbed of an explosion in a computer game, then maybe - just maybe - there are more important things in this world to get unhappy about, and that some introspection is needed to re-evaluate one's life and to ponder if indeed, spending your life's time and energy in achieving the explosion of a fellow human being's virtual space pixels is worth worrying about.

After all, it really is just a video game. I say the same introspection spiel about people worrying about long hair in the game, or people worrying about the flight model (that flight model one is one I was very much guilty of about 2 years ago!), or people worrying about realism. Or people confusing realism with immersion. Or whatever.

I did say to the FDev Support that I'd get this sort of response which is why I was hesitant to post it here, but FDev Support urged me to post it, so I have.

I'm not here to talk about me or the reasons why I play the game I do.

I'm here to talk about the abuse of the 15 sec log out timer. For those of us who do partake in PvP, this is an issue that needs to be highlighted and addressed.

This post is not about people logging off using the 15 sec log out timer during combat. We all know this is legit. We all know that the person logging off is crossing their fingers they won't blow up, and the person attacking knows they have 15 secs to finish them off.

this post is about those who are abusing the 15 sec log out timer to avoid PvP simply by throttling up and logging out at the start of the interdiction.

The Interdictor has no chance to complete the interdiction within 15 secs, let alone have the chance to carry out the attack/piracy/murder within 15 secs of interdiction completion.

The Interdictee can avoid ALL combat from interdiction. Whether its from NPCs or CMDRs.

As you saw in the vids I linked, this is clearly being abused.

Nearly everyone here so far is either quoting 'its FDev approved' or 'Git Gud'. I am all for the 15 sec log out. Even during combat. If I can't kill them in the 15 secs, then so be it. But not being able to have that 15 secs of combat at all because the target simply logged off at the start of the interdiction seems wrong.

At the moment not many CMDRs know of this '100% pvp avoidance' technique. And so it doesn't really matter too much at the moment, but more and more people are using it, which is why I'm bringing it up. It's a double-edged sword though as now that I've brought it up, more and more people will use it.

when I say '100% avoidance technique' I am referring to logging out at the start of interdiction.

everyone knows you can log out during a fight.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

Just move to gank posts around stations. Problem solved, or rather in Support's terms "workaround offered".

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I did say to the FDev Support that I'd get this sort of response which is why I was hesitant to post it here, but FDev Support urged me to post it, so I have.

I'm not here to talk about me or the reasons why I play the game I do.

I'm here to talk about the abuse of the 15 sec log out timer. For those of us who do partake in PvP, this is an issue that needs to be highlighted and addressed.

This post is not about people logging off using the 15 sec log out timer during combat. We all know this is legit. We all know that the person logging off is crossing their fingers they won't blow up, and the person attacking knows they have 15 secs to finish them off.

this post is about those who are abusing the 15 sec log out timer to avoid PvP simply by throttling up and logging out at the start of the interdiction.

The Interdictor has no chance to complete the interdiction within 15 secs, let alone have the chance to carry out the attack/piracy/murder within 15 secs of interdiction completion.

The Interdictee can avoid ALL combat from interdiction. Whether its from NPCs or CMDRs.

As you saw in the vids I linked, this is clearly being abused.

Nearly everyone here so far is either quoting 'its FDev approved' or 'Git Gud'. I am all for the 15 sec log out. Even during combat. If I can't kill them in the 15 secs, then so be it. But not being able to have that 15 secs of combat at all because the target simply logged off at the start of the interdiction seems wrong.

At the moment not many CMDRs know of this '100% pvp avoidance' technique. And so it doesn't really matter too much at the moment, but more and more people are using it, which is why I'm bringing it up. It's a double-edged sword though as now that I've brought it up, more and more people will use it.

when I say '100% avoidance technique' I am referring to logging out at the start of interdiction.

everyone knows you can log out during a fight.

Fair enough. If it makes you feel better I agree that perhaps a bit of code could be added which ignores the escape key whilst the interdiction mini-game is running. There we go problem solved.

In fact - you could probably even file that as a game bug -"Escape key not ignored during interdiction mini-game" - that might get added in FDEV's gargantuan List[tm] and it might even get sorted one day.

 

[itwasntme]

Fair enough. If it makes you feel better I agree that perhaps a bit of code could be added which ignores the escape key whilst the interdiction mini-game is running. There we go problem solved.

In fact - you could probably even file that as a game bug -"Escape key not ignored during interdiction mini-game" - that might get added in FDEV's gargantuan List[tm] and it might even get sorted one day.

Thanks that's some good pointers.

and as you say, this is will be at the bottom of a very very very long list of stuff for FDev to do, but as long as it's on the list, I'll be happy.

 

[racer1]

I'm not sure I agree with the logout timer.

But Frontier say it is fine to use it to exit the game at any time. So bearing that in mind I can't see any issue with people using it during interdiction.

 

[itwasntme]

I'm not sure I agree with the logout timer.

But Frontier say it is fine to use it to exit the game at any time. So bearing that in mind I can't see any issue with people using it during interdiction.

yep, like I say, you're all preaching the 'exit the game at any time' motto. But as you can see, this is being abused. I am pointing out how it is being abused. It's being used in a way that FDev have not considered.

 

[Robert Maynard]

yep, like I say, you're all preaching the 'exit the game at any time' motto. But as you can see, this is being abused. I am pointing out how it is being abused. It's being used in a way that FDev have not considered.

I expect that Frontier considered the possibility that menu exit may affect PvP - however, it is clear from Sandro's statement that Frontier have not deprioritised the wishes of the player who wishes to leave the game in relation to those of the player who might prefer that the other player could not leave the game.

If the game was based on a requirement to PvP then it would only have one game mode and would very probably not allow players to leave the game when "in danger" from another player.

 

[itwasntme]

I expect that Frontier considered the possibility that menu exit may affect PvP - however, it is clear from Sandro's statement that Frontier have not deprioritised the wishes of the player who wishes to leave the game in relation to those of the player who might prefer that the other player could not leave the game.

If the game was based on a requirement to PvP then it would only have one game mode and would very probably not allow players to leave the game when "in danger" from another player.

The statement is based on normal use of the 15 sec log out technique. e.g. Combat is occuring, player logs out, waits 15 secs, then logs out.

this is fine. I'm not arguing this.

I'm pointing out that ALL PvP/NPC combat can be negated simply by clicking on the log out option at the beginning of the Interdiction process.

I doubt FDev considered this as a viable use of the 'approved' log out method.

there should not be any method to allow a player to avoid 100% of combat other than through the skill of winning the interdiction.

Let me put it another way as I don't think you're understanding what the abuse is...

FDev A: we need to add a legit form of logging out of the game should a player need to exit at any point in case of a knock at the door or a phone call
FDev B: no problem. add a 15 Sec log out timer which is accessible whenever you need it.
FDev A: sounds great! and even if they are in combat with an NPC or another Player then at least we've covered the aspect of the attacking NPC/Player by giving them 15 secs to kill the logging out player, which in my opinion is plenty:
FDev B: Yeah exactly. It's fair for all. Let's implement it.

Now at this point, you're follow the process and agreeing yeah? good. because I am too. This is absolutely fine and dandy and it's legit and all that.

Player A: hahahhaah you can't kill me!! 4 pips to SYS, 15 secs later, logged out.
Player B: Damn it, oh well, at least I had the chance of 15 secs to kill the little . I'll get him next time

you're still agreeing with me yeah? good! because I am too.

Cunning Player A: hmm, there's a Hollow Triangle on the scanner and I'm in a defenceless lightweight Cutter. No matter, if I don't get interdicted then there isn't a problem. I'll just continue on my way to the Station
PvP Player B: oooo!!! look at that easy prey shieldless Cutter, I'm gonna go interdict him and make him pay a rebuy for not taking precautions. Also who cares if he tries to log out, he'll be dead in 15 seconds anyway. Easy!
<INTERDICTION STARTS>
Cunning Player A: lol. Throttle up. Esc, Log to menu....15...14...13...12...11...10
PvP Player B: he's putting up a bit of fight the fool! he'll have full FSD Cooldown to deal with hahahahahaha
Cunning Player A: 9...8...7...6....5...4...
<INTERDICTION COMPLETED>
PvP Player B: hahahahah now you die!!!!
Cunning Player A: 3...2... Under attack... 1... log off
PvP Player B: what the hell? 3 secs and he disappeared?!?! Clogger!

Your point of view = yep that's ok, he logged off the approved way
My point of view = how the hell is that ok? why doesn't he stay in-game for 15 secs, I only saw him for 3 secs (if at all)

And that's the abuse in words. it's also in Vid form in the opening topic.

 

[Asp Explorer]

You can tell other people how to play the game as soon as you start paying them to play with you

 

[SMcA]

It could be a case of you spoil my game. I'll spoil yours.

To me PvP implies consent by both parties.

 

[itwasntme]

It could be a case of you spoil my game. I'll spoil yours.

To me PvP implies consent by both parties.

Open Play is consent. But that's not the topic of discussion.

 

[CMDR Heisenberg B. Damned]

It seems odd being interdicted isn't considered to be "in danger" but it's not really warming me to your cause when you link videos featuring open boasts about destroying defenseless traders. Personally I don't consider that PvP, if one party's defenseless there is no v involved.

 

[itwasntme]

It seems odd being interdicted isn't considered to be "in danger" but it's not really warming me to your cause when you link videos featuring open boasts about destroying defenseless traders. Personally I don't consider that PvP, if one party's defenseless there is no v involved.

the videos are Unlisted and not available for public viewing unless you have the links...I've only listed them here as supporting evidence to the abuse of the 15 sec log out timer.

As for the reasons for interdiction, that is not for discussion in this topic... but I guess you want to know... Power Play. That's why. He was aligned to an enemy Power. All enemies must be destroyed blah blah. doesn't matter what ship or what loadout.

Interdiction is considered as 'in Danger'. That's why Players have to wait for the 15 sec timer to complete.

The problem is that certain players know that interdiction takes longer than 15 secs to complete, and therefore they get a 'free pass' from any sort of combat.

 

[CMDR Heisenberg B. Damned]

But yeah you're right, interdiction should be considered as 'Danger'.

And are you 100% sure it isn't though?

I get danger messages of varying lengths depending how much danger I'm in (mostly deep space too close to a star when logging out, or still SC'ing etc). What if the commander who logged out did get a timed message but it wasn't 15 seconds. If that's the case then FDev have programmed it that way and it's not combat logging.

Not been interdicted in ages though so no idea about that.

 

[itwasntme]

And are you 100% sure it isn't though?

I get danger messages of varying lengths depending how much danger I'm in (mostly deep space too close to a star when logging out, or still SC'ing etc). What if the commander who logged out did get a timed message but it wasn't 15 seconds. If that's the case then FDev have programmed it that way and it's not combat logging.

Not been interdicted in ages though so no idea about that.

yep. check the first vid in my links (ship is in danger... hence the 15 sec log out timer... and I'm abusing it in the first vid to show how)

 

[SMcA]

Open Play is consent. But that's not the topic of discussion.

No it's not and yes it is.
It might not be what you want to talk about.
But taking it as true that open is consent to PvP. Open is also consent to log off anytime you want. If you do it legally.