News 2.3 Dev Update

[Six6VI]

/snip... "and letting other people play the way they want doesn't actually hurt your ability to play the way you want."

Logic works fine, up until said child mugs you with aforementioned railgun...
For no apparent reason, lulz maybe? And then spawn camps you for an hour.
Did you read the part about the persistent "Mostly Stupid" warning for idiots?

It's ok, you keep waving your HUGE underbelly hardpoint at nobody in OPEN

 

[Nine19CnynCrvr]

I fully agree there are many benefits.
However, in my personal "Chances vs. Risks" assessment, I'd still see the Risks overwhelming.

If the main game becomes "CQC without needing to exit to Menu", it'll change its very character forever.

Thing is :
- how much is that view 65000LY away still worth if everyone can teleport into a Ship or SLF there for a "Sightseeing quickie", take a quick Selfie and hop right back home?
- helping people in a tough spot is always a nice thing (Chances) ... but remember this goes both ways (Risks), since it'll be open for rampant abuse (= the usual crowd of Players will instantly maximize its potential for abuse)
- the "IP Demo" from the backseat is something I indeed like myself, good Option. However, as this requires some Coordination anyway, the Crew could easily arrange at a Station just as well
- the "IP in Frontseat" wouldn't work, unless they change it for Helm to be able to relinquish control over the Ship
- AFAIK those Puzzles are already shared via Discord/Forums etc., regardless of Distance
- the "take a quick trip to Colonia" is something I don't see favorable. Might as well have given Neutron Stars a 1000% Jumprange Bonus and limited FSD Engineer mods at 100% instead of 50%. Or get it all over with and install Jumpgates.
- this "you can do anything and everywhere anytime" IMHO is something CQC fell in, the rest of the Galaxy IMHO should still remain "far far away" for a Deep Space Explorer. Anyone embarking on a long trip knows that - and it's what makes these trips so special.

Plus, I'm not sure how people would think about it who specifically purchased multiple CMDR Accounts just to be able to do that "everything, everywhere, anytime" instead of being i.e. 10k LY out with a single CMDR.

..................

I might be entirely wrong here, but it's the 2nd time we're seeing Devs/Decision Makers considering "Full Arcade" Mode of specific Game Elements for the sake of enhancing Gameplay.
Almost feels like we're at a crossroads here...

"ELITE : Dangerous - 400 Billion Systems - Infinite Freedom - Blaze your own Trail"

or

"ELITE : Arcade Unleashed - 400 Billion Systems - Instant Action - Blaze your trail, anywhere at anytime"

What would you prefer if you had to choose?

As far as the sightseeing quickie goes, I personally don't care if they are able to do that as long as they get no reward for it. It's one thing if they logged in with a friend that has a better ship and made the entire journey with them. I think that is fare for them to share the ly range credit, and jumps made. Systems discovered....well that's up to the devs. But the sight seeing quickie....no achievements and no range or jump credits. Exploring isn't for everyone, I won't argue that. But if you want access to Palin, you better partner up and make the entire trip together or do it in your own ship.

I imagine it will be some difficult coding to ensure the Multicrew are there for an entire trip. It would also suck if friends had a small spat during a trip to Sag-A and the pilot logged in and took off with one of the crew to bone them out of the credit for the rest of the trip. So I wouldn't blame them is they didn't allow and exploration credit to count unless you made it in your own ship.

With that being said, if someone wants to multicrew with a buddy at Sag-A to see if its worth the trip for them....have at it. No skin off my back.

 

[Libluini]

Thing is :
- how much is that view 65000LY away still worth if everyone can teleport into a Ship or SLF there for a "Sightseeing quickie", take a quick Selfie and hop right back home?
- helping people in a tough spot is always a nice thing (Chances) ... but remember this goes both ways (Risks), since it'll be open for rampant abuse (= the usual crowd of Players will instantly maximize its potential for abuse)
- the "IP Demo" from the backseat is something I indeed like myself, good Option. However, as this requires some Coordination anyway, the Crew could easily arrange at a Station just as well
- the "IP in Frontseat" wouldn't work, unless they change it for Helm to be able to relinquish control over the Ship
- AFAIK those Puzzles are already shared via Discord/Forums etc., regardless of Distance
- the "take a quick trip to Colonia" is something I don't see favorable. Might as well have given Neutron Stars a 1000% Jumprange Bonus and limited FSD Engineer mods at 100% instead of 50%. Or get it all over with and install Jumpgates.
- this "you can do anything and everywhere anytime" IMHO is something CQC fell in, the rest of the Galaxy IMHO should still remain "far far away" for a Deep Space Explorer. Anyone embarking on a long trip knows that - and it's what makes these trips so special.

To refute your arguments point by point:

-Visiting someone other there with a short telepresence-hop isn't the same as being there. Or would you argue that someone visiting a teleconference in China is actually in China? And that this experience is actually the same as visiting China?

-Everything is alway open to abuse, Captain Obvious. This argument is just plain invalid.

-No. This argument doesn't even make sense. How do you argue about someone being 65k light years away first and then follow two steps later with stating "they could easily coordinate by meeting up in a station". Newsflash, there aren't any stations out there.

-OK, obviously this is from some long running thread-argument and I have no idea what you are talking about, so I can't openly say that you're wrong here.

-I think I'm understanding what you're getting at here, but that destroys your first argument too, so I have no idea why you didn't keep quiet instead.

-"Might as well" good joke. You are obviously one of those people who don't really grasp how large the galaxy is. 1000% neutron star bonus and better FSD-engineers would be good, we need that.

-You're 100% right, you are just falling victim to the assumption that our galaxy has been hit by a shrink ray.

Plus, I'm not sure how people would think about it who specifically purchased multiple CMDR Accounts just to be able to do that "everything, everywhere, anytime" instead of being i.e. 10k LY out with a single CMDR.

Those people are insane and irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Winterwalker]

Instant-join multi-crew is still only a temporary option,

It's difficult to pull content out though, once it's in .. 'adding inconvenience' later.

This would be the difference between allowing people to play multi-crew now but making it clear that it's not the end of it (it's a slightly inconvenient telepresence meme) .. or opening the floodgates and describing now it as final design, if it's not.

 

[BurnyBurns]

IMHO : ELITE has been called alot of things so far - but Easy Access has never been amongst the descriptions.
For that, there's plenty of Smartphone and Casual Games.

Pity that easy access is usually a mark of good design. "Easy to learn, hard to master." Elite is the other way round. But you're right, well designed is certainly not how I would describe Elite Dangerous. Visuals and sound are top notch, the vision is there, but the game design somehow doesn't quiet carry it's weight. Now, a sensible multiplayer feature implementation is proposed and...

I understand, you won't stand it.

 

[TenakaFurey]

It is interesting that no one seems to be defending these design choices in saying that they make in game sense, are consistent or make sense in the official lore of the game etc.

That's because they don't.

I'd like multicrew to be a success. But I'd be dishonest if I suggested that I expected to be used more than a handful of times even were the systems and mechanics good.

The problem here is that I don't see the mechanics - as de3scriebd - as being good. I see them as downright bad. They have obvious effects on gameplay, game balance, game lore and more.

Now...things might be different in the actual implementation. I can hope so. But I really don't think so. Those extra pips for example are an obvious bribe to tempt players into multicrew, to make multicrew worth using over wings....but they are also a Pay to Win system in that we can pay RL money and make our ships extra powerful over players who don't spend that money.

That isn't good design. Far from it.

There isn't much here in the information provided that can be defended. People want multicrew and even though I don't think it'll be especially popular, I think it'll be a worthwhile addition to the game. But wanting multicrew doesn't mean I have to defend what appears to be a very poor implementation.

 

[TenakaFurey]

Instacrew is hard to justify from any sort of lore coherence standpoint, but is definitely the right way to go to get people to use it and start playing together, and it also incentivizes playing in open.

No - it's hard to justify if you envisage your CMDR swapping ships.

If, OTOH, the Multicrew experience simply had you select a MC Mode akin to Solo, where you could accept invites or whatever, then you could position your "new" character as part of the crew of the MC ship. Someone who is already on board.

Alternatively - design a series of ships that are dedicated multicrew vessels and designed as such. Now you won't have to worry about your friend bein 22kLY away because they need to be close by to buy and use the ship.

Alternatively - allow each account to have a number of characters. That way, if your Main is at Colonia, you can still play with friends in the bubble.

 

[BurnyBurns]

Now...things might be different in the actual implementation. I can hope so. But I really don't think so. Those extra pips for example are an obvious bribe to tempt players into multicrew, to make multicrew worth using over wings....but they are also a Pay to Win system in that we can pay RL money and make our ships extra powerful over players who don't spend that money.

Quiet a lot of assumption based on nothing.

Multicrew, if it's still the case that it takes the role of a wing, prevents two out of three players to use actual none-SLF ships. At the top end of a 3 vs 3 player encounter, one in a 3-wing, one in a large 3 multcrew ship, that'd mean you'd be looking at 3 Anacondas + 1 AI SLF each, vs. 1 Anaconda with slightly more pips and up to 2 SLF or damage gimped turrets. Replace the Anaconda with any of the big three at your will.

If anything, I'd be worried multicrew is going ot be useless in PvP situations vs. wings, as long as there are equal player numbers on each side.

Realistically however, hardly anything of that matters as - surprise - both sides are going to be able to use multicrew. That may completely shift the meta, but what of it? The good PvP-ers will adapt to the new meta, no matter which shape it takes. Or is the current meta untouchable and sacred?

 

[redVENGEANCE]

IMO if you want to engage in multicrew you and your friends meet up at a station and join there using the crew lounge.

Instajumping to your buddy at beagle point and then to your mate at colonia just doesn't make sense. I do like a bit of immersion.

I think most people who use multicrew will do so within the bubble. Travelling to a station to meet up isn't really a problem.

 

[TenakaFurey]

How about a compromise. The potential crewmember travels to the nearest station equipped with a Telepresence Terminal (new feature suggestion there!) hops into the booth and can then be a crew member
Either that or Professor Palin needs to invent Transwarp Beaming lol.

To be honest, I think the simplest easiest best solution would be for the player to simply possess an NPC crewmember in the target vessel. Telepresence has its place - but not here. If we were to be fully realistic and in keeping with the game settings, we'd need all CMDRS to dock at the same location but that is at odds with the easy access FD wants from multicrew. Thing is...if players wanted that easy access, we have Arena.

 

[mossfoot]

We're on the same side here and I appreciate your respect for both sides. I just want to point out however that one design decision forces all players to play a certain way, while the other does not. For example with instant ship transfer, if you crave the immersive experience of waiting for a ship to be delivered, you are certainly able to order your ship, go do something else for a bit, and come back later, or set an egg timer with your own arbitrary time. If you want the immersive experience of cargo being unloaded, again, you can play it that way - set an egg timer, enjoy time in the break room, whatever you've got to do. Roleplay is great that way - you don't have to play the way the game lets you. There is, for example, an option to turn off pre-flight checks for exactly this reason.

On the other hand, players who don't have much time, or who aren't as interested in the game as a "real life" simulator and would prefer to enjoy the "soft flight simulator" aspects, cannot speed up their "fly a spaceship" time by just ignoring an egg timer if it is hard baked into the game.

So, by advocating for more "immersive" play, you actively alienate players who don't want to play that way - where advocating for "fun, easy game design" does not actually prevent anyone from imagining their ship needs to be manually unloaded or that they need to wait for a ship to be transferred.


In this case, for example, players are certainly welcome to only join crews with people they meet in the same station. If it would ruin the game for someone to have a crewmember just jump into their ship, you can simply only invite people from the station where you are. Call up your friends and say "let's multicrew, everyone meet in Sol," and everyone can do that! You get all the benefit of the roleplay and the immersive fun and so on. You get to choose how you want to play.

However, if Frontier were to make this an in game requirement, gameplay is significantly hurt. None of your friends have the option to go deep space exploring because do do so means they can't join your crew. "Sacrifices have to be made," why? Why would sacrifices need to be made for a video game? That is asinine. My friend in a Viper 3 with no mods and a D FSD can't join me for some fun multicrew play today because I'm on the other side of the bubble, my other two friends are with me and want to play, so I guess that guy can kick rocks while he put-puts across the bubble 10ly at a time. Too bad for him, he should embrace being immersed.

So making the game enforce immersion does hurt players who aren't looking for that experience, but it doesn't actually hurt people who do want the immersion. If your principles require you to fill out a bill of lading every time you haul cargo, you can do that! Nobody is stopping you. If not having the option enforced in game means you wouldn't take advantage of it, then maybe your principles aren't as strong as you think. v0v


Again, we're on the same side here, and I respect your view of a balance being made, I agree with that. I'm just presenting the case for why it is better to err on the side of "fun and accessible gameplay" versus erring on the side of "Eurotruck 3303."

Understood, but I have to somewhat (somewhat) disagree with your assessment. Because if we always err on the side of "fun and accessible", well, "fun and accessible" is all we're going to get. It's still a trump card when there's disagreement. What makes Elite special is the approach it has taken up to this point, which always has its detractors who use "fun and accessbile" as a rallying cry.

The sky hasn't fallen and the game hasn't collapsed on itself because of ship and module transfer times, and I think that was the right way to go there. Both from an immersion and a game mechanic point of view.

However, I do believe instant multicrew transport is necessary from a game mechanic view -- and that no amount of lore-fu will (or should) justify it from an immersion view. I see some people who are complaining are doing so strictly from that angle, like they HAVE to have an explanation for it.

Seriously, don't. It's not going to work out in a way you will like. Better just to ret-con your own in game memory to pretend you took on your crew at your last station stop and they were having a nap until you called them to the bridge.

 

[Libluini]

IMO if you want to engage in multicrew you and your friends meet up at a station and join there using the crew lounge.

Instajumping to your buddy at beagle point and then to your mate at colonia just doesn't make sense. I do like a bit of immersion.

I think most people who use multicrew will do so within the bubble. Travelling to a station to meet up isn't really a problem.

Immersion is good, but there comes a point where a game has to make compromises to still be fun to the majority of its players. Multicrew being explained with "telepresence" is actually a good explanation, as it circumvents the problem of people jumping across thousands of light years. Just be glad Frontier didn't go "You're actually jumping through space for real. Space and time are dead, welcome to hell"

 

[TheOneWithNoLife]

I believe instantly joining a crew offers more benefits than problems. Yes it can break immersion but think about it: I go to station X, meet up with my friend, pick him up and then we fly around, then I have to get him back to his ship. What if I am unable to do so? I have to go do something important and then I am unable to play for a week. What then? He is stuck for a week in my ship unable to play? Also I am not a fan of the fact that you can not create 2 CMDRS in one account. I like exploration, but sometimes when I am out there I feel like shooting something or doing some mining, and I have to go back to the bubble, forcing me to go on small exploration trips. If crew joining is instant you can get a friend and one of you can be exploring and the other one can stay in the bubble and just switch ships(being able to pilot the other person's ship would help with that). Also from immersion point of view you can say that the ship always has crew, and your friend is just controlling your crew member.

 

[DPI]

However, in my personal "Chances vs. Risks" assessment, I'd still see the Risks overwhelming.

If the main game becomes "CQC without needing to exit to Menu", it'll change its very character forever.

Thing is :
- how much is that view 65000LY away still worth if everyone can teleport into a Ship or SLF there for a "Sightseeing quickie", take a quick Selfie and hop right back home?
- helping people in a tough spot is always a nice thing (Chances) ... but remember this goes both ways (Risks), since it'll be open for rampant abuse (= the usual crowd of Players will instantly maximize its potential for abuse)
- the "IP Demo" from the backseat is something I indeed like myself, good Option. However, as this requires some Coordination anyway, the Crew could easily arrange at a Station just as well
- the "IP in Frontseat" wouldn't work, unless they change it for Helm to be able to relinquish control over the Ship
- AFAIK those Puzzles are already shared via Discord/Forums etc., regardless of Distance
- the "take a quick trip to Colonia" is something I don't see favorable. Might as well have given Neutron Stars a 1000% Jumprange Bonus and limited FSD Engineer mods at 100% instead of 50%. Or get it all over with and install Jumpgates.
- this "you can do anything and everywhere anytime" IMHO is something CQC fell in, the rest of the Galaxy IMHO should still remain "far far away" for a Deep Space Explorer. Anyone embarking on a long trip knows that - and it's what makes these trips so special.

Plus, I'm not sure how people would think about it who specifically purchased multiple CMDR Accounts just to be able to do that "everything, everywhere, anytime" instead of being i.e. 10k LY out with a single CMDR.

..................

I might be entirely wrong here, but it's the 2nd time we're seeing Devs/Decision Makers considering "Full Arcade" Mode of specific Game Elements for the sake of enhancing Gameplay.
Almost feels like we're at a crossroads here...

"ELITE : Dangerous - 400 Billion Systems - Infinite Freedom - Blaze your own Trail"

or

"ELITE : Arcade Unleashed - 400 Billion Systems - Instant Action - Blaze your trail, anywhere at anytime"

What would you prefer if you had to choose?

Very well said CMDR.

Also, several of the 'huge benefits' listed can be negated by simply watching YouTube ..

Anyway, put me down for a helping of: "ELITE : Dangerous - 400 Billion Systems - Infinite Freedom - Blaze your own Trail" if you please [up]

 

[PyrateLV]

Seriously if it hurts your imurshun so much don't use it, or just realize that telepresence is a thing in Elite.

 

[CMDR Engalo]

Another step towards the arcade grave!

Multicrew is redundant without the ability to be walking around. This will be another CQC. It's so called "content" but no one will actually use it. [down] The avatar thing is good tho. [up]

But seriously Fdev: give us some real content instead of this crapy update. Not mentioning that this season patch is so freakishly late, but this puny thing is what you give us? [knocked out]

Im sorry, but am I the only one a little fed up with Fdev and they none content updates?!

Instant transport from bridge to bridge? Hell no!
Why not just give us the possibility to teleport our entire ships and everything trough stations? That makes equal much sense...
Elite is a space combat and trade simulator... yes... simulator. Teleporting your body and yourself across the galaxy does not fit in a simulator. [sad]

 

[mossfoot]

Multicrew is redundant without the ability to be walking around. This will be another CQC. It's so called "content" but no one will actually use it. [down]
...
Instant transport from bridge to bridge? Hell no!
Why not just give us the possibility to teleport our entire ships and everything trough stations? That makes equal much sense...
Elite is a space combat and trade simulator... yes... simulator. Teleporting your body and yourself across the galaxy does not fit in a simulator. [sad]

So the solution to a feature that you feel no one will actually use is to make it even more inconvenient to use?

Look, I'm all for immersion and believe ED to be a simulator at its heart, but perhaps a change of perspective is required.

Even though it's your avatar being used, don't think of joining someone's crew as "you" unless you want to (ie via arranged meeting at a port or something first)

Think of it as a temporary second account allowing you to play with someone else. So many people here have multiple accounts, so just think of the feature along those lines.

 

[z993126]

This game is not a space exploration simulator - large amounts of the galaxy is procedurally filled with stars that are not real and systems are not organized by body mass, orbit sizes don't correlate to orbit speed and neither correlate to body mass, even tidal locking as a function of orbit distance seems to be off.

Actually, orbit sizes DO correlate to orbit speed:

And body radius to mass (circle size is gravity):

Neither orbit size nor speed correlate to mass, when I graph those.

 

[BurnyBurns]

Anyway, put me down for a helping of: "ELITE : Dangerous - 400 Billion Systems - Infinite Freedom - Blaze your own Trail" if you please [up]

Somehow fail to see how that's mutually exclusive with sensible game design, but OK.

 

[CMDR Engalo]

So the solution to a feature that you feel no one will actually use is to make it even more inconvenient to use?

Look, I'm all for immersion and believe ED to be a simulator at its heart, but perhaps a change of perspective is required.

Even though it's your avatar being used, don't think of joining someone's crew as "you" unless you want to (ie via arranged meeting at a port or something first)

Think of it as a temporary second account allowing you to play with someone else. So many people here have multiple accounts, so just think of the feature along those lines.

No matter how cool it would actually be to just teleport myself over to my friends house just to have a chat, it's not possible. A simulator are a platform where you put as much realism in as you could in to the engine. Making a decision to actively undermine that very thing is a step in the wrong direction.

If your solution to this probelm is to pretend in a pretend world... well I am sure you see the futility in that. huh?