A few more Vive observations, 200+ users over a week

Slopey

Volunteer Moderator
Hi All,

I've just come back from OTC Houston where I had the Vive on our booth all week, running a Unity game I wrote just for something cool to have on the stand. (I originally wrote it for the Rift with an Xbox controller, but that was barf inducing, so I re-wrote it for the Vive the day before the conference started - much more visceral experience as it involved hitting pipes with a hammer).

Here's a few little observations for other Vive owners - especially if you plan doing Unity stuff with it.

The Vive performance is nowhere near as smooth as the CV1 (due to the timewarp), and if you have a large amount of terrain or assets in the view, you get quite a bit of judder. Particle systems can be problematic also depending on how many you have. On the CV1, my demo scene (which was an oil rig in a yard with pipes, surrounded by jungle) was butter smooth, but suffered from horrendous judder. The only way I could get acceptable performance on the Vive was to drop out the jungle style terrain surrounding it. I swapped it over to a moon environment (which was free on the asset store), and decent performance with that, so it would have been the grass/speed trees which was pulling down the Vive.

We had several hundred people play the game throughout the week - many wore glasses, so I had a chance to see how the Vive handled different types/users. Generally it wasn't a problem - the best way is to put the HMD on first, then pull the straps over the back of your head and adjust as necessary, but the Vive will accommodate glasses without issue if the eye relief is set to max. Be careful when you take it off though as it tends to take the glasses with it and they may fall.

The lighthouses can be very very temperamental. To ensure they sync, I've taken to turning them on before anything else, pointed squarely at each other and leave them for 5 mins or so before starting up the PC/Vive proper. If they don't talk, set one to "A", and the other to "c", and ideally power off the "c" unit for a while - more often than not, when it comes back on again, the A station will see it and steam VR will then recommend that A is swapped to channel b. I couldn't get them opposite each other on a diagonal, but (facing the PC), one at 11 o'clock and one at 3 o'clock worked pretty well.

What's interesting is that some people "get" VR, and some don't. There was a clear demographic split depending on the nationality of the user which I found very interesting - you could almost predict who would do well with it and who wouldn't based on the country they came from. We were in the international pavilion, so there was a very wide mix of people playing the game. But it ranged from people who "got it" straight away and moved effectively within the game, to those who simply walked off in a direction (the game uses a teleport system to move in the same way as vanishing realms) - and those people just charged off into a real world booth wall! They required a LOT of chaperoning! The final group just stood there dumbfounded, and couldn't process it - even when I was talking them through it i.e. "see that red pipe right in front of you?", "no?", "it's right there - you're looking at it", "I can't see it....." etc - very very strange.

The other thing which as interesting from a game design perspective is that when the 2 minute "game" was up, I put up a very very large, red "GAME OVER - You Scored XXXX" message right in the center of the view. I'd say at least 50% of people totally ignored it - they had to be told the game was over they were that immersed in it, at which point they processed the text on screen (it's almost impossible to miss you'd think!), and they realised it was there. So in VR, with people looking "past" the interface, they may simply filter it out!

Charger life on the controllers was excellent, and provided I charged them overnight, I could generally get from around 9am to 3pm without having to charge them again. The game only used a single controller, so I could simply swap them later in the day. That took a bit of on/off/on/off toggling to get SteamVR to recognise the "new" one, but it did work after 30-40 seconds or so once the other one was turned off.

The game has a couple of small bugs which can cause it to drop out if you leave it to sit too long, but once I've tidied those up a bit I'll make it available so people can get an idea of what you can whip up in about 6-8 hours with Unity.

Hope that's of use to someone :)
 
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Used to mess with Unity a lot as a hobby until Elite sucked up all my spare time. Having spent about ten minutes playing with a demo scene it really is astounding when you can actually step into the game. If people reading this are game devs or not it only takes a very small amount of time to setup a basic scene with Unity and be inside your own game. :D

Just search YouTube for Unity Vive tutorial and you'll be able to setup something basic in hour or so even if you've never used Unity before. It's also free unless you earn over $100,000 with it.

Interested to see your Pipe game Slopey, is it on Steam?
 
Thanks for the interesting post. I was just thinking of doing something in Unity as it happens. Interesting to hear about the psychological aspects of VR usage. Some people really are in a world of their own.
 
Interesting, I've seen reports that have shown Steam VR being more efficient, but as always there are exceptions to rules.

I know what you mean about people who 'get it' and people that don't. I've had 2 friends try my Vive so far, one of them got so into it I barely needed to say anything, they were able to completely navigate the lap with only 2 instructions (what button teleports and how to get into each zone). The other found it disorientating but with some assistance they were able to pull it off. My only observation on this is that the 2nd friend kept looking down alot and I think the whole 'not seeing your body' is what was throwing them off, like they needed the visual marker to make sure they were right in the space. I didn't have hover junkers but I'm wondering if this would have helped.
 
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Slopey

Volunteer Moderator
Used to mess with Unity a lot as a hobby until Elite sucked up all my spare time. Having spent about ten minutes playing with a demo scene it really is astounding when you can actually step into the game. If people reading this are game devs or not it only takes a very small amount of time to setup a basic scene with Unity and be inside your own game. :D

Just search YouTube for Unity Vive tutorial and you'll be able to setup something basic in hour or so even if you've never used Unity before. It's also free unless you earn over $100,000 with it.

Interested to see your Pipe game Slopey, is it on Steam?

It's not on Steam (as it's a very rough tech demo, purely for promotional purposes), but I'll be putting it up on the next later this week so you can have a go.
 
I found B & C for the base stations worked best, I assumed the HMD was A. As you say, base stations are face on, about 14 feet apart, mounted seven feet high with a 35 degree down-angle. No issues with tracking for me.

There is a sync cable if you have problems, but I don't use that.
 
Thanks slopey, appreciate the write-up.

Did anyone have any sense of nausea etc? Or did the change to the new moon assets even out the Vive's frame rate to the point it was ok?

"On the CV1, my demo scene (which was an oil rig in a yard with pipes, surrounded by jungle) was butter smooth, but suffered from horrendous judder."
Presume you left out 'but the Vive suffered from horrendous jusdder" here? No biggy.
 
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It's not on Steam (as it's a very rough tech demo, purely for promotional purposes), but I'll be putting it up on the next later this week so you can have a go.

when Oculus touch launches will you be going back to the rift or are you more confident in the full vive room package overall?
 
Thanks for the observations. We seem to be at the dawn of development for this system.

Personally I have not had any of the juddering, but guess this is down to hardware setup and what games you are using.
My main problem at the moment is losing sync with controllers when I am low to the floor playing demos or Portal VR. Not sure if this is base stations locations or that base stations hardware not that sensitive.

Personally I have had move fun with watching 3D films than playing games. But I am hoping ED improve there support.
 
Sorry I switched off when you mentioned that you used teleportation as your locomotion mechanic (if it can even be called that - magic perhaps?). I don't see the point of VR when such immersion breaking mechanics are used. I cancelled my 5 minute (ish) Vive preorder on the basis that Steam seem to rely on way too much on it, essentially regurgitating the same experience over and over again, restrained by the very thing they are trying to "work around" - artificial movement. Its needed, even in room scale experiences if they ever gain enough traction to become proper games. VR legs are what people need, the more time people spend in VR the more they get them.
 
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Slopey

Volunteer Moderator
when Oculus touch launches will you be going back to the rift or are you more confident in the full vive room package overall?

They're different devices - I use them for different things. For seated experiences, and watching content/video/cinema etc, I always use the Rift. Anything Room Scale obviously, I pop on the vive, so it depends on the content tbh.

I'm looking forward to Touch - that'll allow for finer experiences with hands etc. The Vive paddles are fine for swords and guns, but are totally unintuitive for grabbing or pressing - feels like you're swatting with a baseball mit or something.
 
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Sorry I switched off when you mentioned that you used teleportation as your locomotion mechanic (if it can even be called that - magic perhaps?). I don't see the point of VR when such immersion breaking mechanics are used. I cancelled my 5 minute (ish) Vive preorder on the basis that Steam seem to rely on way too much on it, essentially regurgitating the same experience over and over again, restrained by the very thing they are trying to "work around" - artificial movement. Its needed, even in room scale experiences if they ever gain enough traction to become proper games. VR legs are what people need, the more people spend in VR the more they get them.

So considering you can't actually walk to where you want to be (without future walking accessories) and how much up-chuckability the use of controllers to move your avatar seems to introduce in many games, what is your solution to the problem (other than totally removing VR completely)?

I drive a lot but I get car sick as a passenger, especially as a backseat passenger. I have no issues in VR except when certain games move me around in ways that mean what my eyes see does not correspond what my brain is expecting. Teleporting simply removes an extremely artificial way of moving that has nausea-inducing side-effects with one that gets you near where you want to be so you can actually use the room-scale capabilities to move around in that area without the nausea. Sure it isn't real, but neither is the alternative where we travel without actually using our legs! If the choice is no room scale at all, vomit city, or a halfway house i choose the halfway house.
 

Slopey

Volunteer Moderator
I don't see the point of VR when such immersion breaking mechanics are used.

Practically, it's not possible not to use teleportation currently, as nobody has a) a room big enough or b) sensors that'll work at that distance. For example, my "pipe yard" in the game is probably around 100-150m long. It's just not feasible to have 1:1 movement. And moving the player via a gamepad causes nausea.

The only device (allegedly) on the market which would solve that is the Omni, but as an early backer (I'm #69 iirc), there's no sign of it, after 3 years - they keep talking about more funding, but I'm likely going to request a refund if it doesn't arrive by Q4. I'm not confident that the Omni will not induce nausea - it's still moving while your head remains where it is. Ok, your legs are moving, but there'll still be no forward vestibular motion, so it's going to be interesting.
 
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Slopey

Volunteer Moderator
Thanks slopey, appreciate the write-up.

Did anyone have any sense of nausea etc? Or did the change to the new moon assets even out the Vive's frame rate to the point it was ok?

"On the CV1, my demo scene (which was an oil rig in a yard with pipes, surrounded by jungle) was butter smooth, but suffered from horrendous judder."
Presume you left out 'but the Vive suffered from horrendous jusdder" here? No biggy.


Yeah - sorry. The Vive suffered from judder, the Rift was fine. Swapping out the scene backdrop solved the problem. Nobody reported nausea from using it. A few "this is wierd!", and a few had balance issues, but no nausea.
 
And moving the player via a gamepad causes nausea.

Not for everyone. A lot of people have bought into that propaganda, I can't find the article now but I'm pretty sure someone from Valve stated the figure as 6 or 9% of users get sick from pad based locomotion. The problem is that as an emerging technology which needs as many happy customers as possible as certain amount of damage control has been done. The amount of VR titles using teleportation will reduce as the user base grows and those users get their VR legs.

Teleportation, in VR should only ever be an option for those who need it. Unless of course its part of the games narrative.
 
Not for everyone. A lot of people have bought into that propaganda, I can't find the article now but I'm pretty sure someone from Valve stated the figure as 6 or 9% of users get sick from pad based locomotion. The problem is that as an emerging technology which needs as many happy customers as possible as certain amount of damage control has been done. The amount of VR titles using teleportation will reduce as the user base grows and those users get their VR legs.

Teleportation, in VR should only ever be an option for those who need it. Unless of course its part of the games narrative.

Follow on to what I said earlier. As a kid i was never motion sick. It started after I learnt to drive and drove regularly. I know a few people affected by it that way too. Perhaps 'da yoof' are affected less simply because they live life being ferried around and it's only us older ones that got used to the movement being under our control that have the issue?

Only 1 title on Vive affected me this way (though I haven't tried them all) and it was so serious i couldn't last more than 2 minutes in it. VR is so new you can't just dismiss this as propaganda. It exists but it is not across the board. Your attitude seems to be 'suck it up loser'. Perhaps things will change over time but unless the game absolutely benefits from 'real man with a hairy chest locomotion' then why force it and potentially lose the customer base you are aiming for?
 
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Practically, it's not possible not to use teleportation currently, as nobody has a) a room big enough or b) sensors that'll work at that distance. For example, my "pipe yard" in the game is probably around 100-150m long. It's just not feasible to have 1:1 movement. And moving the player via a gamepad causes nausea.

The only device (allegedly) on the market which would solve that is the Omni, but as an early backer (I'm #69 iirc), there's no sign of it, after 3 years - they keep talking about more funding, but I'm likely going to request a refund if it doesn't arrive by Q4. I'm not confident that the Omni will not induce nausea - it's still moving while your head remains where it is. Ok, your legs are moving, but there'll still be no forward vestibular motion, so it's going to be interesting.

Is Omni that odd thing with the rollers under your feet? Seem to remember seeing video from ComicCon with a controller like this.
Personally gloves would be the next step for hands, but as for movement with games think publishers I going to have to offer options to user. Like Vive desktop move in steps or teleportation.
Personally I would like use to move forward with joystick/pad.
 
Follow on to what I said earlier. As a kid i was never motion sick. It started after I learnt to drive and drove regularly. I know a few people affected by it that way too. Perhaps 'da yoof' are affected less simply because they live life being ferried around and it's only us older ones that got used to the movement being under our control that have the issue?

Only 1 title on Vive affected me this way (though I haven't tried them all) and it was so serious i couldn't last more than 2 minutes in it. VR is so new you can't just dismiss this as propaganda. It exists but it is not across the board. Your attitude seems to be 'suck it up loser'. Perhaps things will change over time but unless the game absolutely benefits from 'real man with a hairy chest locomotion' then why force it and potentially lose the customer base you are aiming for?

Not at all. My attitude is give the poor people the option of teleportation but leave the raw locomotion for those that do not need teleportation nor want it. I think you'll find that Steams approach is the "we're doing teleportation, suck it up" approach.

Propaganda is certainly afoot, spin doctors in VR camps trying to maximise profits at the expense of users immersion and minimise any sickness complaints which would sent VR the same way as 3D. As slopey put himself, room scale when boundaries are reached has limitations and teleportation does nothing to address that, it take you out of the game world in order to merely allow you to move forward.
 
Not at all. My attitude is give the poor people the option of teleportation but leave the raw locomotion for those that do not need teleportation nor want it. I think you'll find that Steams approach is the "we're doing teleportation, suck it up" approach.

Propaganda is certainly afoot, spin doctors in VR camps trying to maximise profits at the expense of users immersion and minimise any sickness complaints which would sent VR the same way as 3D. As slopey put himself, room scale when boundaries are reached has limitations and teleportation does nothing to address that, it take you out of the game world in order to merely allow you to move forward.

Of course teleportation does something to address that. It gets me from here to there when I can't walk that far across the room. Using a gamepad just means I get from here to there too. Neither one sorts out the 'I'm stuck in the corner of my room and will knock myself out on the edge of the cupboard if I dodge that zombie' issues. Moving without teleporting means just as unnatural a movement since I'm using my thumb or some other non-natural hand movement to cause my body to move. What am I doing then? Levitating?
 
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