A Game At Odds with Itself and Why

[Viking84]

Actually, I love Eurotruck 2 and American Truck Sim. I find driving the different routes, with different or my favorite trucks, relaxing. I can eat hours, days even, driving in those games.

This is because I find the driving engaging. It requires constant attention, and near constant interaction. Course and speed corrections, interchanges, traffic...driving equates to doing something.

Hyperspace jumps, on the other hand, are watching, not doing. It's spectatorship. And just think of how much time a long haul trader spends just watching their ship jump as opposed to flying it, during any gaming session.

This deserves more rep. I can waste hours in Live for Speed, just drifting cars around a track against myself. No direction given to me, no goals, but the act of driving itself is a challenge. I can waste hours on my Enduro bike, riding the same stretch of trail again and again, because it is a physically challenging exercise.

At the moment Elite is keeping me hooked because I love the idea of it, I really like the atmosphere and universe it is set in, and I have high hopes for its future in the form of more challenging gameplay. If Season 2 doesn't deliver I will take a break, maybe disappear to No Mans Sky or Star Citizen (if it ever launches).

 

[Blackcompany]

I don't want another progress bar to fill.

I want something engaging and purposeful to do instead.

 

[Cynaqq]

I know you are trying to make the opposite point - but for some of us Elite is analogous to that game with the ball. We wish it were more like playing in the woods But if the woods only consisted of 4 different large rocks, 4 different small rocks, and 24 different birds flying between them, it doesn't really sound like a very exciting place now does it...

Search as much as you want, Elite is not a sandbox, or a forest, it is a beautiful but barren playground where you can't actually alter anything significant apart from the text on some of the attractions... I have more faith than the OP that it will improve However I also strongly dislike the "use your imagination/brain" crowd that appear every time anyone levels a complaint at the current state of things.

The grove, though, was not a forest like you imagined from my post. It was a grove, with a single type of tree of uniform size. We only had two types of birds and almost no rocks. It was a beautiful but barren playground where we couldn't actually alter anything, because it would be damaging property, which is punishable.

I'm trying to emphasize a mindset. Being critical of stuff, seeming to be easily bored etc. is unfortunately associated with being cool and smart. The state of ED is easily explained by the amount of stuff they added to the game and the total time it had been in development. There was just enough time to build the base structures, including the planets and landing mechanics. They are just beginning to build the top layers. I can't see threads like these nothing more than attempts to look cool and feel validated by seeing people agreeing with you. Just a popularity contest and nothing else. I could be totally wrong and most people posting could really be those who actually care about the well being of the game but I just can't see it.

 

[Brimstone]

I don't want another progress bar to fill.

I want something engaging and purposeful to do instead.

I'll say it again: have you been paying attention to the last few Dev Updates?

 

[bamber]

What we have here is a split between players who "play" games, and those who Play them.

Players that Play games neither desire nor require instruction, and are perfectly content figuring things out for themselves and exploring the game world set out before them. For example, they do not feel that they are hemmed into a singular area of space because their reputation in that local region is high, and do not feel that min-maxing reputation and missions appropriately to gain loads of space bucks is a priority.

Players that "play" games desire the answers to be right in front of them, greyed out, with a little lock indicating that not enough time has been wasted yet to gain access. They need reminders, achievements, stacks of useless junk and item colour coding (to tell them how epic they are), they need to *see* their rank rise in the universe so that they have some measure of self worth, some indication that the hours of painful, pointless grinding they have spent in game actually amounts to something. They will never be content, always desiring some new progress bar to fill, some new instruction to execute or tech tree to travel along. They will play the game endlessly until suddenly, one day, they grow frustrated. Instead of questioning why they burned out trying to complete a game with literally no end, they log onto the forums...

...And post threads like these.

I like the way you put this - I started of "playing" for sure - I joined the race to the biggest most awesome ship I could get
.
Ive since restarted twice and now I Play the game
.
I don't care if the activity will earn me 100Cr for 3 hrs of play - if all I have is 20T of hydrogen fuel and 10 T of biowaste in my hold it was a fun different way of getting it.
.
I now think of what I want to do and build a ship to suit, I don't go A rate the FSD and D rate everything else and load up with cargo anymore I build ships that are good at their roles and balance there weaknesses
.
I hated the type 7 before - I like it no but Ive improved it where it needs it and made it a better ship. I have 3 different Cobra IIIs all designed to be the best for their roles (surface scavenger, smuggler, trader) and I like that - I can tell which ship I am by how it handles each flys and fights differently

 

[Viking84]

The grove, though, was not a forest like you imagined from my post. It was a grove, with a single type of tree of uniform size. We only had two types of birds and almost no rocks. It was a beautiful but barren playground where we couldn't actually alter anything, because it would be damaging property, which is punishable.

I'm trying to emphasize a mindset. Being critical of stuff, seeming to be easily bored etc. is unfortunately associated with being cool and smart. The state of ED is easily explained by the amount of stuff they added to the game and the total time it had been in development. There was just enough time to build the base structures, including the planets and landing mechanics. They are just beginning to build the top layers. I can't see threads like these nothing more than attempts to look cool and feel validated by seeing people agreeing with you. Just a popularity contest and nothing else. I could be totally wrong and most people posting could really be those who actually care about the well being of the game but I just can't see it.

In all honesty, there were things that entertained me when I was a kid, that no longer do. I require complexity, I require depth, I require my actions to have consequences on the world I am involved in or else they are meaningless. In short, I am smarter than I was when I was a kid, I have seen more, and I need higher quality activities to keep me engaged.

Contrary to popular opinion this does not equate to "more content please", or "need my hand holding", or "lack of imagination". It simply means that I, and many others, are sufficiently old/wise and capable of seeing through the incredibly thin fabric holding together Elites few gameplay mechanics.

Others appear content with playing with sticks in a river.

The argument that Elite is still developing is valid, however the common response is that everything, as it is right now, is great, and that there are lots of meaningful and challenging activities to do. Seeing Braben repeat parts of those sentiments is not filling me with any confidence in the future direction that Elite will take...

 

[kilvenny]

The original Elite was a single player game of exploration and combat. Exploration to find the trade routes to give you the credits for the combat that you had to engage in to become Elite. It worked because credits were precious and you had to discover the trade routes for yourself because no one really knew where the best routes were. Factor in the legendary docking and you had a steep learning curve and you were forced to explore all of the available mechanics.

In ED credits are plenteous. Now there is no obligation to explore, no reason to find the best trade route. All you need to do is turn to one of the third party trading tools. Equipping your ship is the same, get the third party tools. You dont even have to be good at combat. Use the tools to trade up to the best ship and then become Elite in combat. If you look at a lot of the content, missions, points of interest, arena, signal sources, they are optional things to do.

The problem for me is there is a variety of content but most of it can be simply ignored, avoided or minmaxed using third party tools.

Engineers is interesting, but I hope the engineers are located in different places. So Engineer Jones is not always at x station in y planet otherwise that content will quickly get minmaxed out.

FD need to start looking at ways to force players to experience content. Arena for pilot licences. Mandatory missions. Galaxy map showing only systems you have visited or bought data for forcing exploration.

 

[nosleepdemon]

The grove, though, was not a forest like you imagined from my post. It was a grove, with a single type of tree of uniform size. We only had two types of birds and almost no rocks. It was a beautiful but barren playground where we couldn't actually alter anything, because it would be damaging property, which is punishable.

I'm trying to emphasize a mindset. Being critical of stuff, seeming to be easily bored etc. is unfortunately associated with being cool and smart. The state of ED is easily explained by the amount of stuff they added to the game and the total time it had been in development. There was just enough time to build the base structures, including the planets and landing mechanics. They are just beginning to build the top layers. I can't see threads like these nothing more than attempts to look cool and feel validated by seeing people agreeing with you. Just a popularity contest and nothing else. I could be totally wrong and most people posting could really be those who actually care about the well being of the game but I just can't see it.

You are not wrong.

I would wager that for most people who are old enough to remember LAN parties, the most fun they ever had in a game was when something unexpected happened - like finding a building you could drive up in Midtown Madness, or discovering that lobbing RPGs across islands in Operation Flashpoint to try and hit players you couldn't even see was hilarious, or someone making a level in Doom - a stupid, pointless box with EVERY GUN in the middle and spawn points at the edges, or some kind of network glitch making some players invisible, or mutators in Unreal Tournament removing gravity in maps built purely from corridors with low ceilings... My list goes on. My point is this - playing games *for the pleasure of playing them*, often with friends, is far more full-filling than simply checking off a list of things to do purely to watch some virtual progress bar go from left to right. Why would you want that? You can already do that in real life! Why not have some *fun*?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

The original Elite was a single player game of exploration and combat. Exploration to find the trade routes to give you the credits for the combat that you had to engage in to become Elite. It worked because credits were precious and you had to discover the trade routes for yourself because no one really knew where the best routes were. Factor in the legendary docking and you had a steep learning curve and you were forced to explore all of the available mechanics.

In ED credits are plenteous. Now there is no obligation to explore, no reason to find the best trade route. All you need to do is turn to one of the third party trading tools. Equipping your ship is the same, get the third party tools. You dont even have to be good at combat. Use the tools to trade up to the best ship and then become Elite in combat. If you look at a lot of the content, missions, points of interest, arena, signal sources, they are optional things to do.

The problem for me is there is a variety of content but most of it can be simply ignored, avoided or minmaxed using third party tools.

Engineers is interesting, but I hope the engineers are located in different places. So Engineer Jones is not always at x station in y planet otherwise that content will quickly get minmaxed out.

FD need to start looking at ways to force players to experience content. Arena for pilot licences. Mandatory missions. Galaxy map showing only systems you have visited or bought data for forcing exploration.

No, they don't! If you, as a player, feel that your game is ruined through the use of third party tools, then do not use them! If you don't want to leave your own local bubble of space, then that's on you not FD. When I say "you", I don't refer to you specifically, but to players in general. Why should FD try to force players to have fun? That doesn't make sense...

 

[ShimEnki]

What changes would you make for power play.

I assume you might drop the mechanic that in effect punishes one for the longer range
hauls and undermining.

I assume too that instead of an all of nothing CR range for income, that is 10 mill or 50 and 1500 merits or 10K one could earn
say 25 mill for earning 5K merits which for some, the 25 mill income would be worth leaving home and helping out in the longer ranges for those that dont have so many hours to play.

The argument against paying players more for longer ranges or a middle income as mentioned (25mill) for less than 10k merits is to limit expansion. Why, i keep hearing how large ED is with the 400 billion systems etc, so...why limit it?
One argument might be that one or two powers might dominate...and of course they would but after a spell, there will be challenges inside which will fragment that...its part of the nature of power and politics to do this, it wont remain as only 1 or 2 powers...IF artificial limits are lifted.

 

[Blackcompany]

A growing sentiment seems to be "just play for fun, not progress." Or Play, for those wanting their Elitism stroked.

Trouble is, fun is not universal. To me, fun is having an impact on a game world, however small. Knowing my decisions matter, that things can go wrong, that actions have consequences. If Sandbox games lack these things, then to me personally they are themselves lacking. Why have a world of your world is little more than 3D tapestry that never changes and upon whose contents I can have no effect?

Elite promised a world. Dynamic, shifting. A dangerous place with consequences.

The developers have so far utterly failed to deliver in that regard. I keep hoping they will do, and I will wat h for it. But for now I think a break us best for me. I have books to read, shows to watch, other games to play, and am hoping No Man's Sky will support tools like HOTAS, as it seems built for explorers.

 

[Maxxgold]

I was getting ready to purchase the upgrade to Horizons, and then I read this and remembered how boring this game is once you play for a few days. Thank you OP. Still waiting for Star-Citizen. Hopefully when that game is released we will have a lot to do in the universe. Once you get over your first impressions of Elite Dangerous it is like watching paint dry. They need to shrink the galaxy and add in some features where players can actually do something that matters.

 

[NavyBee]

[...]
Mr. Braben talks about the lonely, lone-pilot-against-the-galaxy feeling he wants Elite to embody. Then he created an online, multiplayer game with frequent Community Goals. He imagines an online community that does not exist, full of loners who will never want to group up or band together, content to play together but in isolation. Give players an open, living universe and they will want the means to group up and exert influence. This is simple human nature.
[...]

Considering what little data I have seen so far (one previous newsletter which gave some carefully selected user statistics, some numbers about CG participation, and the very informative weekly 2nd layer estimates derived out of pp) I would still dare to speak against this assumption.
The solo player community seems to be huge, not because ED's solo mode is such a great invention, but because many ED players are generally MP-averse.

 

[Cynaqq]

The argument that Elite is still developing is valid, however the common response is that everything, as it is right now, is great, and that there are lots of meaningful and challenging activities to do. Seeing Braben repeat parts of those sentiments is not filling me with any confidence in the future direction that Elite will take...

These arguments are not valid unfortunately. The most common comments about ED is that it has a lot of unrealized potential and while it has many great features deserving of praise, it also lacks a lot of others too, which needs careful attention from the devs. 'Everything is great' is not something you encounter all the time, it certainly comes up less frequently than 'game is doomed, it lacks substance'.

Coming to meaningful and challenging activities. This is something very dependent on the person. I find the current BGS mechanics and PP good attempts at meaningful interaction with a lot of room for improvement. For improvement, the devs need time and money, which I provide by waiting and buying their products. They need useful feedback, which I try to provide by posting on the forums in as a balanced manner as I can. I give credit where it's due, I criticise what I think deserves it. I also try not to speak in absolute terms when I criticise. Challenging is also a person dependent adjective. My wife finds undocking and going out of the station impossible. My dad plays almost as well as I do, having played many flight sims before.

David Braben is a businessman. He wants to sell this game and return a profit. He can't seem to lack confidence in his product but he also can't afford to lose credibility for the future. If he says something instead of not saying anything, it means he is determined to stand by what he says. He can of course be delusional. Let's hope he isn't.

 

[Blackcompany]

FD need to start looking at ways to force players to experience content. Arena for pilot licences. Mandatory missions. Galaxy map showing only systems you have visited or bought data for forcing exploration.[/QUOTE]

Trust me, you really DONT want to force Arena on people. That...would go badly.

They already forced the awful SRV scavenging down our throats. Want to know exactly how useless particular blue circle is? Drive there. Every. Time. And it grew boring very quickly.

Forcing players to partake of content is a final refuge for developers too daft or selfish to create fun, compelling content people WANT to experience.

 

[Iskariot]

(Mr. Braben etc....)

I agree with the general sentiment that the game needs more 'stuff', tweaks and improvements.

Your wording seems to suggest that you know exactly what Mr. Braben believes, thinks and feels and what colour his glasses are.
I very much doubt your psychic abilities and I'd suggest you might be mistaken.

You also seem to forget that the game is in the midst of development.

FD have said many times for example that they are working on implementing a better mission system and they have already implemented a few stages to work towards that goal. Sadly some new missions are bugged at the moment, but in general we already have a good variation of all kinds of missions. Compared to what we had at the start good progress has been made already. It just takes time and patience.
FD also announced some other cool changes that will be implemented with the next patch and in the current season.
Slowly but surely this game is build while we are playing it.

In the end it is simple: if you want a different game, then you should go and play one, or build one yourself.
I for one already love Elite for what it is now and what's more I believe in the vision of what it will become.

 

[FurtivePygmy]

Aside from the inevitable name-calling/personal jabs, there have been many interesting points made on all sides here.
BUT
I think that this has once again turned into a "here is how I personally think ED could be better" thread, when the OP was actually undertaking a very focused analytical task, i.e. the current state of the game vs an interpretation of Braben's vision. All issues of future development and "this is great"/"I hate this" aside, it is interesting to assess the game's current form in relation to its stated objectives (ala Braben and FD). I tend to agree with OP that there is some tension going on between those goals (as they've been interpreted here) and the present game state. What I'd be interested in seeing, is whether others interpret Braben/FD's position differently (and any evidence to support these interpretations!) and/or how the proposed tensions are actually reconcilable. Keep in mind that this (along with OP's initial point) is essentially an academic exercise. It doesn't invalidate anyone's personal experiences with the game, nor does it reflect positively or negatively on the current game state itself. It is simply a matter of objectively discussing what the game's actual development goals are (a thing of some contention), and how well those purported development goals have been realized as of yet (obviously understanding that there will be continued development).

 

[Viking84]

These arguments are not valid unfortunately. The most common comments about ED is that it has a lot of unrealized potential and while it has many great features deserving of praise, it also lacks a lot of others too, which needs careful attention from the devs. 'Everything is great' is not something you encounter all the time, it certainly comes up less frequently than 'game is doomed, it lacks substance'.

Coming to meaningful and challenging activities. This is something very dependent on the person. I find the current BGS mechanics and PP good attempts at meaningful interaction with a lot of room for improvement. For improvement, the devs need time and money, which I provide by waiting and buying their products. They need useful feedback, which I try to provide by posting on the forums in as a balanced manner as I can. I give credit where it's due, I criticise what I think deserves it. I also try not to speak in absolute terms when I criticise. Challenging is also a person dependent adjective. My wife finds undocking and going out of the station impossible. My dad plays almost as well as I do, having played many flight sims before.

David Braben is a businessman. He wants to sell this game and return a profit. He can't seem to lack confidence in his product but he also can't afford to lose credibility for the future. If he says something instead of not saying anything, it means he is determined to stand by what he says. He can of course be delusional. Let's hope he isn't.

A pragmatic approach, to be admired And I agree with much of what you say, however the current state of Elite suggests that "difficult" or "challenging" is universally assumed to mean "takes a long time to do". The BGS is a great example. You don't need to do a single thing to alter a system that is actually challenging to do. You just have to keep doing easy things for long enough, and the status will change.

Elite is full of stuff like that. Even reaching Elite in Combat, Trade or Exploration requires only the most rudimental of skills that you learn while doing the tutorials. After that you just grind it out, if you so wish. It bares witness to a philosophy of game design that is sorely lacking. I share your optimism in that this will be sorted in the coming seasons, but then again I am often an overly optimistic guy

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

Sadly the claimed exodus of the people never extend as far as the forum.

I saw what you did there ! + rep

Cheers Cmdr's

 

[Ignition]

No secret: Elite is a game at odd with itself. Or rather, the game as it exists, is at odds with the one Mr. Braben clearly wants to make.

Consider Mr. Braben's recent PCGamer interview. He talked about how there are tons of things to do in Elite. There aren't, of course; Mr. Braben commonly mistakes "doing the same thing lots of times" with "having lots to do" and it's a very revealing and very problematic paradigm. As long as Mr Braben believes Elite has lots to do, it never will, since he will not believe that adding more to do is needed. In terms of the robust game with ample player activities Mr. Braben imagines he has already created, the bare bones, three-pronged combat/trade/beep-scanning (I refuse to call that "Exploration" any longer) is a game at odds with what it's creator wishes it to become.

This is so true. I remember an interview with Braben and he said he was really happy with the actual exploration gameplay. WHAT?!! And all the amazing things in the DDA for exploration?? It seems there's a necessity to dumb down games so much these days.

Mr. Braben needs to remove the Rose tinted glasses of his imagination and tune into his game as it exists. People are losing interest, and worse, beginning to question whether this is even the game they were promised, or ever will be. Some of the reasons for this doubt are listed above, in case Frontier are listening at all.

I would love FD to be much more open and to clarify the future of the gameplay of Elite, because the game envisioned in the DDA and what was going to be is very different to what we have.

 

[Traven Mayhem]

"game is still in development"

after a year and a major expansion, we can stop using that excuse now. online games never 'exit' development.