Nice panties
A Game At Odds with Itself and Why
- Thread starter Blackcompany
- Start date
Honestly, I'm on the opinion that Elite should focus on developing the features that really makes it unique, rather than racing against the clock to copy/have as many features as 'you now what other game'.
Oh no, what have I done, I'm already hearing the horses...
Purpose, yes.
It's something i've been missing too.
The game world is impressively big and attractive, the flight model spot on, but in theory you could stay within a handful of systems forever and experience all game mechanics on offer within a few days.
All you can achieve by travelling is doing the same stuff elsewhere.
Speculation, but perhaps FD's thought process is/was "The galaxy IS the game."
If so, i can only hope for them that enough players share that view, i'm afraid i don't.
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The original post basically sums up the way that most game designers talk about their games (the way they conceived it to be played). One of the designers of Fallout 4 said recently that players weren't finding everything put in the game because of the way they were playing it, but breaking the game down it has 2 goals the same Elite - fight/kill someone or go collect/sell something with varying degrees needed, in-between working for some faction while wandering aimlessly around looking for things to do. The only difference is it is set in Boston not space. This way of looking at a game can apply to most in-game activities of most sandbox type games.
Now the OP said there wasn't a lot to do (notwithstanding they didn't like some of the things that could be done) and this is possibly true if you look at the game in the terms it only has 2 activity's fight/trade (exploring is wandering while looking for one of the other 2 ) but someone described Elite as Euro Trucker in space (which having played Elite since it came out on the BBC Micro and every iteration since) I mostly agree with this description. The problem with this analogy is if you have ever played Euro Trucker it only has one thing to do apart from driving aimlessly is collect/deliver things (one less thing than Elite) but it has a lot of devout fans who love it. So the OP, as they have already stated in this thread, would hate that game due my description of it's activities.
Where I'm going with this ramble is Viking84 sums up why people love or seem to hate Elite (or a lot of other games if you substitute the games name instead of Elite into the quote)
Now the OP said there wasn't a lot to do (notwithstanding they didn't like some of the things that could be done) and this is possibly true if you look at the game in the terms it only has 2 activity's fight/trade (exploring is wandering while looking for one of the other 2
) but someone described Elite as Euro Trucker in space (which having played Elite since it came out on the BBC Micro and every iteration since) I mostly agree with this description. The problem with this analogy is if you have ever played Euro Trucker it only has one thing to do apart from driving aimlessly is collect/deliver things (one less thing than Elite) but it has a lot of devout fans who love it. So the OP, as they have already stated in this thread, would hate that game due my description of it's activities.Where I'm going with this ramble is Viking84 sums up why people love or seem to hate Elite (or a lot of other games if you substitute the games name instead of Elite into the quote)
“I love it when people discover new stuff,” says Braben
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140032&page=18&p=2145360&viewfull=1#post2145360Have you deciphered that there was Morse code in the UA sounds? Did you then determine that the Morse plotted a crude drawing of the ship that you were currently flying?
Have you deciphered the barnacle mystery or given up?
Why does the nebula NGC 1333 lie in a dense line of stars that point directly to SOL? (I know why) Why is there one system named 'Emily' in this line of stars?
Why do Sol, Alioth, Polaris, and NGC 6357 stay highlighted when you zoom out fully on the galaxy map?
I keep racking my brain....
I went to boarding school, from 6th to 9th grade. School had a large library with fast internet connection in the early nineties. We had an indoor stadium and an olympic field outside. The school grounds were located near a village, surrounded by farmland and had its own acres of groves.
I had so many adventures in those groves with a few like minded friends, looking for squirrels or lizards. We would try our hand in sports like the long jump and fail miserably while having great fun. I learned most of what I know from the internet of those days in the library, most importantly, how to learn things.
Not the cool kids though. They preferred to play only with spherical objects and complain constantly about how it was a miserable and boring life in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do.
I had so many adventures in those groves with a few like minded friends, looking for squirrels or lizards. We would try our hand in sports like the long jump and fail miserably while having great fun. I learned most of what I know from the internet of those days in the library, most importantly, how to learn things.
Not the cool kids though. They preferred to play only with spherical objects and complain constantly about how it was a miserable and boring life in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do.
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Hard to find the "new stuff" when every planet in every part of the galaxy has stuff to discover every few kilometers...
Maybe, one day, you will teach them brutes about the finer things in life!
Fair point
I missed the Barnacle mystery as I wasn't paying attention to the right forum thread at the time, but I do like the concept of various story related mysteries popping up. I would like them to be discoverable in game somehow, not through searching the forums, but at least the idea is there.With the amount of bugs in ED at the moment I'm tempted to chalk those up to either randomness or glitches. But I may be wrong
In any case it's a bit like being given a Sudoku with too few numbers filled in to only give one solution... yeah, you can speculate and rack your brains as much as you want, but you can't reach a proper conclusion without guessing as there is simply too little information available.Interesting? Sure. Intellectually challenging? Not really
You assume I like long walks
Let's invent a hypothetical game. For the sake of argument, let's call it 'toe-sphere'. In this game, you can:
Hit the sphere with your toes, or another part of your foot.
Hit the sphere with your head.
Hit another player with your foot, or your head - the game mechanics however impose a penalty for this.
Fall on the ground, pretending that another player has hit you with his foot or head - unfortunately the game mechanics aren't very good at detecting this 'griefing' tactic.
Your 'score' depends only on guiding the sphere through a slot - you 'win' by grinding the sphere through the slot more often than the opposing team.
Boring obviously. Nobody would want to play, and the idea that people would pay to watch it is even more ludicrous...
Hit the sphere with your toes, or another part of your foot.
Hit the sphere with your head.
Hit another player with your foot, or your head - the game mechanics however impose a penalty for this.
Fall on the ground, pretending that another player has hit you with his foot or head - unfortunately the game mechanics aren't very good at detecting this 'griefing' tactic.
Your 'score' depends only on guiding the sphere through a slot - you 'win' by grinding the sphere through the slot more often than the opposing team.
Boring obviously. Nobody would want to play, and the idea that people would pay to watch it is even more ludicrous...
Asp Explorer can already jump more than 70LY. I think you should try the synthesis. Never knew it was fun.
I'm going to fall back on a much-recently-derided response here. If you don't like it, if you don't want the gameplay that we actually have, then sod off and leave it to those of us that do.
I know "if you don't like it don't play it" is often unconstructive but I am totally sick of "the sky is falling and the game will die" posts from people that don't like the game and seriously fail to "get it" why some of us actually DO like it and will continue to play it BECAUSE we do like it.
I know "if you don't like it don't play it" is often unconstructive but I am totally sick of "the sky is falling and the game will die" posts from people that don't like the game and seriously fail to "get it" why some of us actually DO like it and will continue to play it BECAUSE we do like it.
Blackcompany
Banned
In my opinion you either like the Elite atmosphere, lore and "feeling" enough to keep yourself entertained with the game play mechanics, or you get bored. The mechanics are simple, in fact I would like someone to suggest a single activity in Elite that is difficult to do, not just time consuming.
Me personally? I've got a foot in both camps. I enjoy just flying around. It is simple and meaningless but with the Warthog HOTAS and a nice big screen I get to play space ship commander and it gives me joy
But I am still honest enough to say that it really is absolutely the bare minimum of what would be required for a game... while at the same time being an incredible universe-simulator!
The original post basically sums up the way that most game designers talk about their games (the way they conceived it to be played). One of the designers of Fallout 4 said recently that players weren't finding everything put in the game because of the way they were playing it, but breaking the game down it has 2 goals the same Elite - fight/kill someone or go collect/sell something with varying degrees needed, in-between working for some faction while wandering aimlessly around looking for things to do. The only difference is it is set in Boston not space. This way of looking at a game can apply to most in-game activities of most sandbox type games.
Now the OP said there wasn't a lot to do (notwithstanding they didn't like some of the things that could be done) and this is possibly true if you look at the game in the terms it only has 2 activity's fight/trade (exploring is wandering while looking for one of the other 2
Where I'm going with this ramble is Viking84 sums up why people love or seem to hate Elite (or a lot of other games if you substitute the games name instead of Elite into the quote)
Actually, I love Eurotruck 2 and American Truck Sim. I find driving the different routes, with different or my favorite trucks, relaxing. I can eat hours, days even, driving in those games.
This is because I find the driving engaging. It requires constant attention, and near constant interaction. Course and speed corrections, interchanges, traffic...driving equates to doing something.
Hyperspace jumps, on the other hand, are watching, not doing. It's spectatorship. And just think of how much time a long haul trader spends just watching their ship jump as opposed to flying it, during any gaming session.
In my opinion, the utter reliance on this ancient system of hyperspace as loading screens is part of the reason space Sims died. It's a whole lot of doing nothing while playing a game. Add in an open world with zero consequences, no dynamic, game changing content and boring, repetitive job board missions and I honestly don't think you've got a recipe there for longevity in modern gaming.
This is not 1984. Lots of gamers expect more now.
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I know you are trying to make the opposite point - but for some of us Elite is analogous to that game with the ball. We wish it were more like playing in the woods
But if the woods only consisted of 4 different large rocks, 4 different small rocks, and 24 different birds flying between them, it doesn't really sound like a very exciting place now does it...Search as much as you want, Elite is not a sandbox, or a forest, it is a beautiful but barren playground where you can't actually alter anything significant apart from the text on some of the attractions... I have more faith than the OP that it will improve
However I also strongly dislike the "use your imagination/brain" crowd that appear every time anyone levels a complaint at the current state of things.I used to play a very small game called Rubies of Eventide.
Mechanics were horrible.
6 total quests... yes, just 6. All for level 1 to 5 players.
Maybe 20 zones?
And yet it was a great game... because of the people I played with.
My tag line at the time was "We are the Content" when people asked "where is the content"?
Now, that sort of works here. And the Templars have worked very hard to create our own content in the game for our players.
But, not being a true MMORPG, with Avatars that interact all the time, it is not really possible.
Here, we have more content, some of it good content... but it is so spread out as to be meaningless.
It is like being a toddler in a sandbox.... the size of the Sahara. Trying to find any one toy is impossible.
End result? Despite loving the team, the players are hating the game. We have dwindled from 8 wings of 4 operating + 5 to 10 people just chatting in game to just 5 or 10 players period. That is a 75% loss, mainly due to frustration with the BGS, PP, etc. Some will come back when 2.1 rolls out, but a big chunk are gone forever.
The "come to <deity>" list:
1. Instancing. Still have a significant number of people that cannot connect with those outside their geo region, like AP to US. This is the ABSOLUTE MUST. As a Enterprise Solution Architect speaking, you appear to have picked the absolute worst possible model, one that relies on the players internet stability to work. It has failed, scrap and revamp.
2. BGS. The one thing we can actually own... and it is so screwed up we cannot, as a big group, maintain our own system let alone expand. Our system appears to be more screwed up than others, as we get a flood of people coming in to farm the HASREZ and it tanks our rep, but boosts our rival system faction reps. How the hell does that make sense, and if "working as intended" it is messed up. There is no point in playing a game we cannot win. This is the biggest frustration.
3. PP. Well documented issues. Also needs a mechanism for larger multi-wing groups to take on to have more impact on the outcome. Yes... some sort of "raid" system. Taking on a capitol ship, a station, something!
4. Missions. Yes, fixes coming in 2.1... BUT IF YOU SCREW IT UP, THERE ARE NO MORE CHANCES. Seriously. It is the last chance you get for many of my players. You make it worse, or even only slightly better, they will quit. I definitely won't get back people sitting on the sidelines if it is not good, if not great.
5. PvE vrs PVP. You botched this one from the start in the eyes of many. I don't hold an opinion, actually, but it sure aggravates a lot of players. Fixing one means losing the other, or possible both if you keep diddling around. Pick one as a priority and live with the consequences.
6. Breadcrumbs. In such a huge environment, we need signposts to the content you think we are missing out on. Everything is geared to keep us in the bubble: PP, BGS, Missions, Trading... if you want us to explore, there has to be a reason. Again, if you stick this into the mission system, it is automatically screwed up. It must come organically from the environment. Your challenge there is that random encounters like dropping to a POI, or getting spammed from an NPC to drop with him, is SUCH A PAIN IN THE TUKUS, and so low reward for high risk, no one in their right mind does it.
I love this game. Stop screwing it up.
Thanks.
Mechanics were horrible.
6 total quests... yes, just 6. All for level 1 to 5 players.
Maybe 20 zones?
And yet it was a great game... because of the people I played with.
My tag line at the time was "We are the Content" when people asked "where is the content"?
Now, that sort of works here. And the Templars have worked very hard to create our own content in the game for our players.
But, not being a true MMORPG, with Avatars that interact all the time, it is not really possible.
Here, we have more content, some of it good content... but it is so spread out as to be meaningless.
It is like being a toddler in a sandbox.... the size of the Sahara. Trying to find any one toy is impossible.
End result? Despite loving the team, the players are hating the game. We have dwindled from 8 wings of 4 operating + 5 to 10 people just chatting in game to just 5 or 10 players period. That is a 75% loss, mainly due to frustration with the BGS, PP, etc. Some will come back when 2.1 rolls out, but a big chunk are gone forever.
The "come to <deity>" list:
1. Instancing. Still have a significant number of people that cannot connect with those outside their geo region, like AP to US. This is the ABSOLUTE MUST. As a Enterprise Solution Architect speaking, you appear to have picked the absolute worst possible model, one that relies on the players internet stability to work. It has failed, scrap and revamp.
2. BGS. The one thing we can actually own... and it is so screwed up we cannot, as a big group, maintain our own system let alone expand. Our system appears to be more screwed up than others, as we get a flood of people coming in to farm the HASREZ and it tanks our rep, but boosts our rival system faction reps. How the hell does that make sense, and if "working as intended" it is messed up. There is no point in playing a game we cannot win. This is the biggest frustration.
3. PP. Well documented issues. Also needs a mechanism for larger multi-wing groups to take on to have more impact on the outcome. Yes... some sort of "raid" system. Taking on a capitol ship, a station, something!
4. Missions. Yes, fixes coming in 2.1... BUT IF YOU SCREW IT UP, THERE ARE NO MORE CHANCES. Seriously. It is the last chance you get for many of my players. You make it worse, or even only slightly better, they will quit. I definitely won't get back people sitting on the sidelines if it is not good, if not great.
5. PvE vrs PVP. You botched this one from the start in the eyes of many. I don't hold an opinion, actually, but it sure aggravates a lot of players. Fixing one means losing the other, or possible both if you keep diddling around. Pick one as a priority and live with the consequences.
6. Breadcrumbs. In such a huge environment, we need signposts to the content you think we are missing out on. Everything is geared to keep us in the bubble: PP, BGS, Missions, Trading... if you want us to explore, there has to be a reason. Again, if you stick this into the mission system, it is automatically screwed up. It must come organically from the environment. Your challenge there is that random encounters like dropping to a POI, or getting spammed from an NPC to drop with him, is SUCH A PAIN IN THE TUKUS, and so low reward for high risk, no one in their right mind does it.
I love this game. Stop screwing it up.
Thanks.
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What we have here is a split between players who "play" games, and those who Play them.
Players that Play games neither desire nor require instruction, and are perfectly content figuring things out for themselves and exploring the game world set out before them. For example, they do not feel that they are hemmed into a singular area of space because their reputation in that local region is high, and do not feel that min-maxing reputation and missions appropriately to gain loads of space bucks is a priority.
Players that "play" games desire the answers to be right in front of them, greyed out, with a little lock indicating that not enough time has been wasted yet to gain access. They need reminders, achievements, stacks of useless junk and item colour coding (to tell them how epic they are), they need to *see* their rank rise in the universe so that they have some measure of self worth, some indication that the hours of painful, pointless grinding they have spent in game actually amounts to something. They will never be content, always desiring some new progress bar to fill, some new instruction to execute or tech tree to travel along. They will play the game endlessly until suddenly, one day, they grow frustrated. Instead of questioning why they burned out trying to complete a game with literally no end, they log onto the forums...
...And post threads like these.
Players that Play games neither desire nor require instruction, and are perfectly content figuring things out for themselves and exploring the game world set out before them. For example, they do not feel that they are hemmed into a singular area of space because their reputation in that local region is high, and do not feel that min-maxing reputation and missions appropriately to gain loads of space bucks is a priority.
Players that "play" games desire the answers to be right in front of them, greyed out, with a little lock indicating that not enough time has been wasted yet to gain access. They need reminders, achievements, stacks of useless junk and item colour coding (to tell them how epic they are), they need to *see* their rank rise in the universe so that they have some measure of self worth, some indication that the hours of painful, pointless grinding they have spent in game actually amounts to something. They will never be content, always desiring some new progress bar to fill, some new instruction to execute or tech tree to travel along. They will play the game endlessly until suddenly, one day, they grow frustrated. Instead of questioning why they burned out trying to complete a game with literally no end, they log onto the forums...
...And post threads like these.
I've actually seen that played - as an occasional interruption to some sort of multiplayer wrestling-with-sticks game. Never figured out what the rules were, but I think you win points by making your opponents sit in a box.