A Guide to Minor Factions and the Background Sim

If i understand well, attacking outpost (faction B) call reinforcement (security ship / faction C ) but killing them will hurt faction B ?

if a factions owns any station, its goverments a zone around that station. for exampel: if you are wanted with the controlling faction, but you go to station of another faction in that system, you are not wanted. same goes for illegal goods - they might not be illegal in the system, but around a station in that system, which is controlled by a faction making those goods illegal.

so, if system security is spawned around a station not controlled by the system controlling faction, those system security will be system security of the faction owning that outpost - killing them, will hurt the faction controlling the outpost.

if you aren't lucky and have a spawn of system security around an outpost, you can try to trigger a spawn by collecting smuggling missions, and hope for system security spawning at your outpost. than it is a little bit of real gardening - don't shoot system security at once, fight them slowly, till more (and more) arrive.

at some point you will have shot all system security in that instance, so there won't spawn more, leave outpost and come back for a new lucky spawn....

killing system security is a heavy hitter - so, depending on population in your system, it doesn't make sense for each cmdr to shoot more than 10-50 system security each day. after that point you'll no see any effect.
 
The problem you're going to have...snip...TL;DR - buy, and most importantly, SELL one tonne at a time, loads and loads of times. See what happens to influence. Then tell us.
Thanks, I get what you're saying.

I was going to try to figure out just what "high demand" meant, since I saw one commodity with two bars and the number 40 next to it in the demand column.

Two commodities down, I saw a commodity with one bar and the number 260 next to it.

Which one is in higher demand?

Looks like it doesn't matter.
 
Thanks, I get what you're saying.

I was going to try to figure out just what "high demand" meant, since I saw one commodity with two bars and the number 40 next to it in the demand column.

Two commodities down, I saw a commodity with one bar and the number 260 next to it.

Which one is in higher demand?

Looks like it doesn't matter.
The quantity required is not comparable between products. You can have a commodity in high demand (3 bars) but they don't need that much of it. As a poor analogy: if you are a bike manufacturer with 60 ready to go out but 5 awaiting tyres, you've got a high demand for a small quantity.
 
The quantity required is not comparable between products. You can have a commodity in high demand (3 bars) but they don't need that much of it. As a poor analogy: if you are a bike manufacturer with 60 ready to go out but 5 awaiting tyres, you've got a high demand for a small quantity.
So if I still thought the BGS cared about the demand of a commodity, the one with more bars is in higher demand (until the number goes to 0). But I no longer think the BGS cares.

Also,

I have a system where I'm working for faction A. It was at 4%. My target faction to start elections with to take their ground port was at 5%. I ran some missions for faction A.

Today, Faction A up to 6%, Faction B still at 5. No pending states. I expected pending election for them.

Is it because %inf is too low to trigger a state? So I will have to raise both until they are high enough to allow a state to triggger?

edit* BTW, neither faction is in cooldown.
 
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But anyway, we tested this (as best we can). We have a low-traffic planetary station in our system, which we wanted to hurt by trade. The faction that owns it has no other markets or platforms worth considering in the system, so it's a reasonably isolated test-bed. We decided that shipping in (i.e importing) large quantities of scrap - which was a commodity that the station did not have any demand for, but did offer an uncompetitive price for - would be the way to 'hurt' them, via this 'selling in' theory that we'd read here many moons ago. We knew that it being a low-value item would negate any effect of 'commodity-price' (i.e. if we had dumped in Palladium, we'd never be sure it wasn't the value of the individual tonnes that was the catalyst). We also chose to run the scrap in via ground buggies (which have a cargo capacity of 2 tonnes each). This meant that we could negate the effect of any large drop happening in one go, as being the catalyst (i.e. we ruled out any 200t dumps, by limiting each dump to 2t per run). It basically meant that the tills in the marketplaces were ringing constantly, and without it being an exploit (i.e. we felt that sitting in the station with ten Pythons carrying 200t each, and selling in 1 tonne 200 times per Python was a bit 'cheaty', so we invented this buggy-run concept to make it fun and to make it feel right).

TL;DR - buy, and most importantly, SELL one tonne at a time, loads and loads of times. See what happens to influence. Then tell us.

Interesting.

I'd like to get some clarification on a few things... Was the Scrap actually selling at a loss? Was Scrap Low Demand, or did it not appear on the commodity list at all (when not in your hold), or did it appear as Supply? How many tons did you move? Was the Scrap purchased out of system? Was anything purchased at that station?

I still favor the idea that Profit/Demand play a role, though I do agree with your general point that the 'Trade Chips' as you call them are likely fairly simple in operation-, i.e. that IF Profitability/Demand matters, it is a simple Yes/No Profitable (or In Demand), rather than 10cr vs 1000cr Profitability making a difference in Influence Effect.

Based on this post much earlier in this same thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=193064&page=16

"Additional: In another modest experiment in the same system, last night I dumped 1300t of Bauxite into this market, an item that does not normally appear in their list. I lost 1cr/t, so everybody suffered. It goes a small way to confirming what is already known, that selling unwanted items to a station adversely affects the leading faction to the benefit of all the others. "
 
I have a system where I'm working for faction A. It was at 4%. My target faction to start elections with to take their ground port was at 5%. I ran some missions for faction A.

Today, Faction A up to 6%, Faction B still at 5. No pending states. I expected pending election for them.

Is it because %inf is too low to trigger a state? So I will have to raise both until they are high enough to allow a state to triggger?

edit* BTW, neither faction is in cooldown.
Yes, it's most likely because the influence was too low when faction A passed faction B. A few missions for faction B should do the trick.
 
@goemon
Thanks ! We will try it !
(population of system is 5M)

Another question :
Selling stolen goods (no illegal) at a black market (of the outpost) is considered as a piracy action ? (we are in war, piracy considered as combat action ? )
Does it hurt the influence of the outpost ? :rolleyes:
 
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Selling stolen goods (no illegal) at a black market (of the outpost) is considered as a piracy action ? (we are in war, piracy considered as combat action ? )
Does it hurt the influence of the outpost ? :rolleyes:

that's our idea for "what does the BGS recognize as piracy", because any other action (in the "act of piracy") is already covered. no confirmation by any dev, even when it was asked more then once.

it meets the experience of pirate-minor-faction-backers, that they are constantly loosing influence (so it isn't "illegal tarde"). but if this is the case, it shouldn't be considered as an act of combat.
___

that link: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...=1#post3656797 could open another possibility for you winning your bugged war. if your minor faction is leading, you could back all other factions in the system via high influence missions. the gap between you and your enemy should get bigger than. still i stand corrected...
 
that's our idea for "what does the BGS recognize as piracy", because any other action (in the "act of piracy") is already covered. no confirmation by any dev, even when it was asked more then once.

it meets the experience of pirate-minor-faction-backers, that they are constantly loosing influence (so it isn't "illegal tarde"). but if this is the case, it shouldn't be considered as an act of combat.
___

that link: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...=1#post3656797 could open another possibility for you winning your bugged war. if your minor faction is leading, you could back all other factions in the system via high influence missions. the gap between you and your enemy should get bigger than. still i stand corrected...

good thinking, fdev only have one dev working full time according to other posts on the bgs and his kept in a back office and doesnt venture onto the forums much its kinda sad
 
good thinking, fdev only have one dev working full time according to other posts on the bgs and his kept in a back office and doesnt venture onto the forums much its kinda sad

The poor sod would have very little time for actual work if he were to engage with all of our queries! Anyway he's not doing too bad for a Hamster!
 
that's our idea for "what does the BGS recognize as piracy", because any other action (in the "act of piracy") is already covered. no confirmation by any dev, even when it was asked more then once.

it meets the experience of pirate-minor-faction-backers, that they are constantly loosing influence (so it isn't "illegal tarde"). but if this is the case, it shouldn't be considered as an act of combat.
___

that link: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...=1#post3656797 could open another possibility for you winning your bugged war. if your minor faction is leading, you could back all other factions in the system via high influence missions. the gap between you and your enemy should get bigger than. still i stand corrected...
It seems your link is broken.
But our factions isn't lead.
Our faction A ( 15%) is in war against faction B (17%).
The controlling faction (assume C) is at 40%
other factions between 0 and 6%

First we have to up our influence A
...
Hmmm if We bounty for the controlling faction C, the gap should reduce :rolleyes:
For one day, we go another way : Bounty in our home system and pay at system in war (station faction C controlling).
It should UP faction A and C :D (not sure for C due to the war state for A and B)

About the selling stolen good, we are testing in a ghost system ...

Ah! And i confirme a thing :
In a system (500 000 people / relatively easy to move) with 5 factions (A / B/ C /D /E ), with B,C,D,E in war and civil war , with controlling faction is A (in BOOM), we can't move influence of A with trading...It is blocked by wars...Zero change for any factions !
Same trade in a similar system UP controlling faction with +2.1 % (but no wars in those system)
 
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*Snip*

We expected that, come the BGS update cycle, we'd have made a nice fat negative effect, or no effect at all. If we had no effect at all, it might indicate that 'tills ringing' (i.e. quantity of buy/sell button pushes) is NOT the primary catalyst, and that it probably WAS something to do with either volume or profit or price-per-ton. If we got that negative effect, it proved that the 'till ringing' philosophy had merit, after all. Throughout all of this, we still believed the common view that 'imports in, hurt'.

What actually happened, we never expected at all!

The damned station's influence went up by 2% overnight - the most 'action' we'd ever seen from that place in one hit.

As far as we're concerned, it proved (not beyond all doubt, but reasonably well enough to keep testing the theory elsewhere, which we're still doing) that profit, value, quantity AND DIRECTION (import/export) of trade has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER. It's just 'tills ringing' that matters. Doesn't matter whether you sell in, or buy out. Doesn't matter whether it's mega-tons per transaction, or million-CR profits per transaction, or fantastic turnover per transaction. It's just... transactions. Sell a million tons by a million SELL clicks, and you'll add a million 'trade' chips into the trade-pool for influence reckoning later. I believe it's that simple.

And this does actually make some logical sense, if you think about it - and not just from the POV of the developers keeping the tracking and data management realistically small to be able to process it all in one nightly script. It makes sense from market POV, too. As someone who's played a fair bit of real-life stock market and been a successful day trader in the past, I'm familiar with the concept of 'market-makers' - perhaps you are too. They're the guys who 'make' the stock market run. When trading volume is low, they lower their offer price on a stock to make it look 'cheap' - and to attract buyers. The buyers they generate, feed the market. The market-makers will change their bid price too, to help influence, and indirectly control, the pressure of sellers against them, if the volume is great and they are running out of stock to be able to sell. They do not give a tuppeny hoot about the actual VALUE of the stock. They live for the spread - the bid-vs-offer price difference. What they care about is CHURN. Sales-volume. Tills ringing. Every ounce of stock they buy at price 'n' will be sold later at greater price 'n'+x - if the market is slow and volume is down, then x will be small. If business is booming and till are ringing, x doesn't matter, but it will be larger most likely, to capitalise on the volume. If the market gets really bad they will vary 'n' price, and offer to buy stock lower, causing the market to feed off its own fears and 'shake the tree' making the less-confident weaker ones sell up and run - but still, they will be selling that same lower-cost stock back to the market (if there are takers) at 'reduced-n' plus 'some-x-or-other'... i.e, always at a profit.

That is what market makers do. And imho, that is what Elite's Commodity Markets do, too. Prices alter (albeit slowly and in fits and starts) based on volume of transactions, demand and supply. Station markets don't lose money - they merely sit on stock for long periods when the market goes cold. The stock they buy in, they will sell again later, usually at a profit; sometimes healthy, sometimes not. On average, they always win, because they don't 'own' the stock; it's stock; they trade it. They churn it. Goods in, money out; goods out, money in - usually more. A ringing till is a happy till. Everything on the shelf has an asset value, and if it's lower today than it was yesterday, it doesn't matter, because tomorrow we will be buying it back for less than today, and although we're selling it for less than yesterday, it's still being sold for more than we paid for it - or it doesn't get sold.

Hence, I believe, that 'TRADE' in ED means just that. Tills ringing. Churn. Individual presses of the BUY or SELL button. That's all that matters.

Please test it. Please prove me wrong - I'd be happy to have supporting evidence, because we've spent a helluva long time working this through. But that's what we're seeing (more than the one example given above).

My other gut feeling is that all the observations about influence increases and decreases when exporting versus importing, value, profit, etc, is confabulation. We are cavemen in a spring storm, watching the lightning, hearing the thunder, feeling the rain, seeing frogs on the ground, heading for ponds and pools. Pretty soon, we reach the conclusion that lightning causes frogs, and frogs must come down from the sky when it rains. We don't know that it's because it's springtime, and the frogs are just coming out of their winter hibernation under piles of damp rocks, and heading for a pond to look for a mate - that's far too advanced a concept for the caveman, and unless he's in the habit of turning over the right rocks, all through winter, he'll just put his two-and-two together and get five. Frogs come down from the clouds via the lightning. Simple. Aren't we? :)

To be fair, we aren't. But you get the analogy, I hope. I believe it's actually the underlying trade calculation mechanic that is simple - but being human, we always look for a more complex, rounded, convincing and elegant explanation, sometimes because we can't see the simplicity, or can't imagine that it would really be allowed to be that simple. But just ask Occam. He's usually right. And he's very, very sharp. ;)

TL;DR - buy, and most importantly, SELL one tonne at a time, loads and loads of times. See what happens to influence. Then tell us.

Very good and interesting conclusion. I just want to be sure I have understood correctly your assumption :
- Clicking SELL/BUY button will just increase the influence of station owner, whatever you are selling/buying or low/high demand. Am I correct ?
In that case, it is the volume of transactions that makes the difference and it is not possible to lower influence thru trading.

Thank you
 
...snip...

TL;DR - buy, and most importantly, SELL one tonne at a time, loads and loads of times. See what happens to influence. Then tell us.
My vote is that this is right. I raised our enemy faction by 3% by using my Python and clicking the buy/sell button a total of 128 times yesterday. I sold a low demand item and bought med demand (two bar) items. I bought items 2 at a time. My thumb was a little sore.

Sys pop is 0.5M. This is a great method, probably best and low pop systems with a faction that has low inf and doesn't offer missions.

Oh yeah, they are now pending boom. LOL.
 
Re: Influence grabbing from outside the conflict

Now confirmed as 'working as intended': https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=236924&p=3656797&viewfull=1#post3656797
As FDev has declared this not a bug, the bug report has been closed.

I'm not convinced the the procedures are robust (having been knocked back from a leading position to a losing in a system with just one conflict) so perhaps other BGS watchers can keep keep records for all system factions during conflict(s). If the influence levels for the two factions in a conflict are added together the resulting total should be the same from day to day during the conflict. It might be possible - with a full data set - to work out influence migration if the totals are not consistent.
 
My vote is that this is right. I raised our enemy faction by 3% by using my Python and clicking the buy/sell button a total of 128 times yesterday. I sold a low demand item and bought med demand (two bar) items. I bought items 2 at a time. My thumb was a little sore.

Sys pop is 0.5M. This is a great method, probably best and low pop systems with a faction that has low inf and doesn't offer missions.

Oh yeah, they are now pending boom. LOL.

Do you need to buy and sell or just one actionis sufficient ?
 
As FDev has declared this not a bug, the bug report has been closed.

I'm not convinced the the procedures are robust (having been knocked back from a leading position to a losing in a system with just one conflict) so perhaps other BGS watchers can keep keep records for all system factions during conflict(s). If the influence levels for the two factions in a conflict are added together the resulting total should be the same from day to day during the conflict. It might be possible - with a full data set - to work out influence migration if the totals are not consistent.

If it is working like they are saying, it should have stop the 2 CZ, not only one. That's what I don't understand.
 
Do you need to buy and sell or just one actionis sufficient ?
I don't think it matters. Either one or both. I did both, but just because. It was all about how many clicks I could do in the least amount of time. IIRC, I made two runs, so I bought from the station twice and sold to the station twice (but racked up 128 clicks in the process).
 
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