Ship Builds & Load Outs A question about Thermal Shock

[Old Duck]

Is Thermal Shock a set number, or does it scale with damage? In other words, will a size 4 weapon generate significantly more heat than a size 1 weapon, or is heat generated the same? If the former, is there any point to using TS on size 1 weapons? I don't expect to explode a ship via heat damage, but if I can force them to "reconsider" permaboosting and SCB spamming, that would be great.

A related question is how do these stack? If I have four size-1 weapons with thermal shock, does that generate four times the heat?

 

[Maolagin]

So did you ever find an answer to this? I've always assumed it was proportional to damage, but upon seeing this lonely unreplied query I've become curious myself.

 

[Vedmo]

I've been hesitant to post as I don't have any definite answer and would be only going of my (often faulty) memory that I can't say for sure is even relevant to the current version of the game.

So here is some potentially completely inaccurate information which is my understanding of how they worked at some point in the last 2 years or so. Thermal Shock effect by itself, regardless of the number of weapons applying it, will not raise the heat of ship higher than 100%, but once they have raised a ship to that temp, any heat causing functions (boosting, weapons, etc.) will obviously raise it past that. I also seem to remember reading somewhere once that weapon size & damage don't matter, the effect will do the same thing no matter what is applying it. Multiple weapons applying it should raise the targets heat at a faster rate, but there is some point at which it no longer matters as the totality of their effects is capped at 100% ship heat.

Hopefully I've stated something that is not true and will inspire someone who actually knows to correct me!

 

[Stabby_Dave]

Not sure if this is any help, but AFAIK, it doesn't work very well against Npcs. They manage their heat better, so it only has a negliable effect.

 

[Old Duck]

So did you ever find an answer to this? I've always assumed it was proportional to damage, but upon seeing this lonely unreplied query I've become curious myself.

From my own observations, I'm beginning to think that size doesn't matter. I've got two size 1 MC turrets (low dps) with this effect, and they appear to raise the heat just as quick and as much as my size 4 fixed beam with the same effect. I base this on how bright the target's heat vents glow when the bullets start hitting.

I also believe I've killed ships by overheating them, based on them blowing up with 30 or even 40% hull. While I sometimes target the power plant, this has not been the case when these ships pop. I find TS especially useful in targeting ships trying to wake out, as that's when they are REALLY going to overheat. I also thinks the heat "discourages" NPCs from SCB spamming and perma-boosting. This is all based on observations made in the heat* of the moment, so I could be wrong or suffering from a placebo effect.

* LOL, I just reread my comment. This time it is truly "no pun intended!"

 

[Vedmo]

I'm tending to agree with you, Old Duck. I have a Chieftain with 3 Cytos and I went and changed two of them to Thermal Shock (one is 1 Scramble) then did a lot of combat. On Pythons in particular I noticed a big change in how they fly once my Chieftain is glued to their tail. They would normally do a lot of boosting to get away, and after I'd laid down some constant Thermal Shock spam, they wouldn't. One thing I didn't see much of though, was module damage. There was some at times before I'd drop shields on something, but only a few percent. I definitely saw hull damage that wasn't coming from anything else. I got a couple of Clippers to pop at 0 hull using nothing but Cytos. Not in any sort of amazing time, but it was definitely way, way faster than if I didn't have Thermal Shock on those Cytos.

 

[alterNERDtive]

I also believe I've killed ships by overheating them, based on them blowing up with 30 or even 40% hull. While I sometimes target the power plant, this has not been the case when these ships pop.

Kind of thread necromancy, but … power plants don’t take heat damage.

 

[Crapulous]

I haven’t played around with Thermal Shock, but I can tell you from testing that Thermal Cascade IS affected by the damage of the weapon applying it. I imagine it works similarly to thermal shock.

In addition to damage, the amount of heat the target gains is also affected by the amount of heat that target already has (more heat present=more heat gained). So a small/low damage weapon could cause a target to reach high heat, if you can maintain time on target; it would just take longer.

 

[Three Stars]

I’m currently in the midst of heavy experimentation with thermal shock. I agree that the effect depends more on frequency of hits rather than weapon damage. Beams worked great, as did rapid fire pulses. Bursts didn’t work well (and cytoscramblers really didn’t work) because that built in pause allows the target to cool down.

Obviously these aren’t being used for damage like in the heat meta days, but the inhibition of boosting and weapon fire on NPCs is noticeable and reproducible. The bigger and slower the target, the more of a sitting duck it becomes.

The best ship I have to “heat lock” with is a chieftain with 3 fixed efficient thermal shock beams on the smalls. I had a python so locked down that it turned directly towards me and refused to fire its weapons.

 

[Starman 1966]

That's an interesting find! I'll try two medium thermal shock beams on my Vette and come back to this thread.

 

[SENA-]

I just made a run on my Vette with them - the trade - off from OC to thermal is not worth at all, in my opinion. On Beam efficient / OC you melt the shields of medium / small NPC a lot faster, and that is important - the time you spend on target. With thermal, you loose 10% of damage, a bad trade-off. You make them slower, true, but they survive longer, and when you fight double wings of NPCs your first imperative is to kill small and fast ships faster as you can so you can engage the bigger ones without fear you get peppered from behind.
I did a run with Thermal, and the results were bad - a Cobra or ASP survived more than 30 sec in my huge double Beam with Thermal, but with OC they pop in less than 20 sec.
Is a big difference when you fight 4-6 of them at once.

I switched back to OC - at least for me, in a Vette with mix MC / hammers / Beams, the Thermals on Beams are a bad deal.

Add the Pythons made from dozens of Duracell SCB and zillions of heat sinks who will laugh at you non-stop. My best weapons against those crazy Pythons who use to stay at 3-5 km spitting chaff and heat sinks non-stop, dancing like flies and recharging shields non-stop over and over, are the Hammers.
I can snipe them at will and usually when they run out of SCB charges, they dive nose-first on you and then you can boil them fast with the Beams. But this work only if you chew them hard with rails before.

 

[Three Stars]

I wouldn’t be putting the thermal shock effect on my main weapons for the reasons you say, plus the fact that you have to sustain fire for the effect to happen. (As soon as you let go of the trigger, the NPC starts moving again) I put them on the mediums of my corvette, or on smaller hardpoints on ships that can spare them. The real damage dealers go on the larger hardpoints.

The best use of slowing an NPC is to hold it in a position where you can take out its power plant in one run. That was very useful in the recent CG. NPC Cutters are sitting ducks if they can’t boost.

 

[Viscera]

Looks to me that mathmatically its a much better deal on smaller weapons, where as a percentage based reduction it has less numerical impact.

I think i may investigate its application on some smalls as it sounds useful on my armed traders, and oddly armed chieftain build...

 

[Three Stars]

That’s the right idea. It’s a debuff, not a damage dealing effect in any significant sense.

That being said, if you follow in the module target screen you’ll see that the NPCs modules are taking heat damage. Usually down to around 95-96% integrity. Not enough to really matter, but it shows that the heat does have an effect.

 

[SENA-]

Yeah, maybe only on small weapons, but even so, not on dedicated fighters, since you will get far better damages / time with MC .... my traders are build for running & tanking, I see no point on engaging on fighting with a trader if I can run.... hell, even my Cutter is build around this idea, max shields and max boost speed... If I want a combat trader, I just use the Vette;

To conclude, I see the Thermal, at this day, more a "funny" effect than a really useful one... Most NPC carry tons of chaff and heatsink charges, forcing you to get used more and more to the fixed weapons... I think is the way the game "push" us to learn to be better at combat.

 

[Viscera]

I sometimes wonder if I am playing a different game to some of the other posters on this forum, as some of their responses i find quite baffling.

I run trade ships that can survive in open play, and will usually fight npc that attack me. This is usually a good income top up, and will often be useful for bgs works as an extra source of inf progression. Sometimes I have to run, as I am still in a trade ship, but its nice to try.

I do not stand and fight against other players in a trade ship, they will beat me hands down so its pointless. Evade and escape when trading. Thats the name of the game.

Patience is the key vs chaff master npc. Use that time to get into firing position, charge the distributor, and generally play smart. Or use lasers against them whilst they chaff as its all about those that do hit then. Firegroups help here.

The thermal effect talked about looks an interesting addition for this, and the two med laser gimbals on my cutter shall be getting this mod. If it helps slow the npc from boosting or firing a shield cell. Then it will of done its job for no real loss on my end.

I will also be trying this on the 2 med turrets on my t10, for a similar bonus effect.

I am also considering this for my viper mk4 corsair. Two small gimbal beams are used for stripping shields, and sticking this on one may help more than some of the other options.

Is it a game breaker... Nope. But it looks like it may add an edge to certain ships i use in some situations, so it is worth exploring its use more.

It certainly wont effect my pvp chances, but if i am doing that in my trade ship then more fool me anyway.

 

[SENA-]

When your cargo holds hundreds of tones of painite, worth hundreds of millions, AND ours of sweat in that boring activity of mining, I think is common sense NOT to risk loosing all in a dumb fight when you have a much better option - avoid the fight, reach the market with best price and fill your wallet;
With this logic, I prefer to "arm" , or better, build my traders for speed, tankiness and defense - chaff, heat sinks, etc - when you have offensive weapons, the tendency, even involuntary, is to make use of them.

And so you find yourself engaged in a fight where you have nothing to win ( or almost nothing...) and you have ALL to lose.

What consolation is if you killed that dumb NPC if your hull is now at 20% and you bleed Painite in your tail ?! Millions after millions ? ....

A T9, in my view, is great for short trips where the chances to get interdicted are reduced, OR to fulfill the power play objectives, since can do in a single trip those 750 units to get you at rank 3. Other than that, dock always between sessions, like here was said. Is a lot safer. For the ship, AND for your wallet.

 

[Three Stars]

Among other things, I’m finding that having the thermal shock effect on fixed weapons is better than gimbals as long as you can hit reliably with them. With gimbals doing the chaff dance you’re not sustaining fire enough for the heat to build.

 

[SENA-]

The "chaff dance" is not a problem if you are minimal skilled with fixes; Peoples tend to forget a gimballed weapon can be a FIXED weapon also;
Just unselect the auto targeting and your gimballed become in the same moment a fixed weapon.
But the problem with thermal is the effect cuts your damage output by 10%, so bigger the weapon class bigger your loss. And is useless vs some NPC.s ( Pythons ) who come with zillions of heat sinks and chaff charges, on top of that Duracell hull...

 

[Three Stars]

Sure thing, man. You do you.