A request for FDev; please provide an update regarding Logging/Combat Logging

[EponymousCowherd]

This is getting extremely tedious.

The "What is FD going to do about Combat Logging" thing has been going on since GPP.

The answer then is the same as it is now. Because of the way inter-player interactions are handled using direct UDP communication between those players, there is very little, short of rewriting the network handling of the entire game to route messages via their servers (and paying for the metric crapton of extra bandwidth this will create), that can be done on a technical level to solve this problem.

And is isn't likely to be.

If someone CLogs on you, grab a capture and report them. That is the current official solution to the issue, and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

This is getting extremely tedious.

The "What is FD going to do about Combat Logging" thing has been going on since GPP.

The answer then is the same as it is now. Because of the way inter-player interactions are handled using direct UDP communication between those players, there is very little, short of rewriting the network handling of the entire game to route messages via their servers (and paying for the metric crapton of extra bandwidth this will create), that can be done on a technical level to solve this problem.

And is isn't likely to be.

If someone CLogs on you, grab a capture and report them. That is the current official solution to the issue, and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

FD doesn't need to do anything about it at all.
Literally that's not nor has it ever been the issue.

Its simply that some people want to PvP, some don't and more than often, neither those who do or don't have any way of knowing who does and who doesn't

So people log out or quit if they don't want that interaction......I think many are looking at the wrong things expecting a solution for what isn't the actual problem.

 

[Thepirateorc]

FD doesn't need to do anything about it at all.
Literally that's not nor has it ever been the issue.

Its simply that some people want to PvP, some don't and more than often, neither those who do or don't have any way of knowing who does and who doesn't

So people log out or quit if they don't want that interaction......I think many are looking at the wrong things expecting a solution for what isn't the actual problem.

well those who don't want interaction have solo play on standby

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

well those who don't want interaction have solo play on standby

This is the problem....no they don't have private and solo to use
Its a very odd mindset to exert that Open = PvP for everyone and other modes do not but that is exactly what the problem is...the mindset you have as well as many others.

How do you fix it....you can't fix people....so perhaps they can change the UI and go to the extent of having a pvp on/off option which within this, changes how commanders are paid and penalized if they interact with someone who has it on/off

 

[Clifra Jones]

well those who don't want interaction have solo play on standby

That is not the point. Even in games that are 100% online multiplayer, no Non-players, the whole point of the game is to kill each other have this problem. As soon a some people see they are going to lose they will CLOG. The Game/Server whatever has no way to know if that disconnect was a internet failure, hardware failure or the user pulled the plug. Would you accept harsh punishment if a storm knocked out you power int he middle of a fight? My guess is no, you would not.

Frankly, get over it! he escaped however he did. Just move on to the nest target!

 

[Thepirateorc]

This is the problem....no they don't have private and solo to use
Its a very odd mindset to exert that Open = PvP for everyone and other modes do not but that is exactly what the problem is...the mindset you have as well as many others.

How do you fix it....you can't fix people....so perhaps they can change the UI and go to the extent of having a pvp on/off option which within this, changes how commanders are paid and penalized if they interact with someone who has it on/off

well if you dont want to be bothered by players then private and solo is fine the only real difference is theres no players apart from private but still they need to be invited

 

[Thepirateorc]

That is not the point. Even in games that are 100% online multiplayer, no Non-players, the whole point of the game is to kill each other have this problem. As soon a some people see they are going to lose they will CLOG. The Game/Server whatever has no way to know if that disconnect was a internet failure, hardware failure or the user pulled the plug. Would you accept harsh punishment if a storm knocked out you power int he middle of a fight? My guess is no, you would not.

Frankly, get over it! he escaped however he did. Just move on to the nest target!

you dont understand, if they dont want players why be in open this is something I dont understand and tbh if theee is various clips of this person logging then that rules out a storm

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

well if you dont want to be bothered by players then private and solo is fine the only real difference is theres no players apart from private but still they need to be invited

Same problem....mindset that if someone doesn’t want to PvP it must mean they don’t want to play with or around others.

SMH....This is a people problem not a dev problem regarding combat logging and the devs are part of those ppl too.

 

[Cmdr Nemo]

The term "GET GUD" is often thrown out at those wanting to play in open and sometimes resulting to combat logging. I'd concur that one can GET GUD at combat logging as well as getting gud at anything else allowed in this game. Though anyone can assert that someone else is cheating, it works both ways. With the in ability on a console to add mods, I'd concur that most of the combat logging salt is coming from pc players. And in so much as pc player don't all utilize various mods to assit them in flying the ship, they are at a disavabntage when it comes to being under attack. Though one may not deem Combat Logging as a weapon, it sometimes is the only recourse that someone not having various mods to assit them, can and apparently utilize. One chooses to add mods, one can also choose to combat log. It's called or refered to as "CHOICE". The game is sold in part as a game one can play THEIR way, which may not be the same as someone elses way.

 

[maniac_2k]

I have been following this discussion a bit, now. IMHO you guys are trying to solve a problem with inherently opposing demands. ED is called DANGEROUS for a reason. The cost of error is high, it requires thought to progress in the game. But especially the high cost of endgame rebuys will motivate players to CL rather than swallow the pill of destruction and potentially loose many hours of gameplay. On the other hand, eliminating or drastically reducing rebuy costs would make the game less DANGEROUS, but almost certainly eliminate combat loggers as well.

Bottom line: wanting this game to be emit a constant threat of danger and wanting to eliminate combat logging are inherently opposing demands that will hardly work st the same time.

Just my two cents...

 

[Hairy Polo]

Even though I have not been commenting on this thread, I have been reading with interest. As always there many distinct camps and justifications regarding Clogging and not Clogging - my opinion is known in the OP. However, my OP was also requesting an update from FDev about what they are doing about Clogging. They have said in the past they are working on the issue of the subject. All I was asking for was an update, whether they're doing nothing, as perhaps it's too difficult of an issue to resolve, or is there a longer term plan or idea they're working towards. Some communication on the subject would be nice from FDev, whichever way you look at it. I would have though the majority of players, not all, would be interested in that.

 

[Mole HD]

The term "GET GUD" is often thrown out at those wanting to play in open and sometimes resulting to combat logging. I'd concur that one can GET GUD at combat logging as well as getting gud at anything else allowed in this game. Though anyone can assert that someone else is cheating, it works both ways. With the in ability on a console to add mods, I'd concur that most of the combat logging salt is coming from pc players. And in so much as pc player don't all utilize various mods to assit them in flying the ship, they are at a disavabntage when it comes to being under attack. Though one may not deem Combat Logging as a weapon, it sometimes is the only recourse that someone not having various mods to assit them, can and apparently utilize. One chooses to add mods, one can also choose to combat log. It's called or refered to as "CHOICE". The game is sold in part as a game one can play THEIR way, which may not be the same as someone elses way.

I fail to see what having various 'mods' to assist in playing ED has to do with combat logging. Are you suggesting that the majority of tools and peripherals available to PC players are merely some form of platform specific cheating because you don't have them on Xbox?

As a PC player using every tool and piece of hardware available to play ED...as I do in many of the games I play... I'd suggest that's a very narrow minded viewpoint. Having eye trackers, VR, fancy HOTAS rigs and Voice Attack are tools to supplement that magic word, 'immershun' and very little else. They don't by any means make anyone using them better or worse game players as I've found through experience.

I've played ED on both Xbox and PC over the 3 years I've been playing and players are either good or bad depending on their skill using the tools they have...not the tools themselves. I'm no better or worse playing any game on PC than I was on Xbox...neither am I finding any more or less players pre-disposed to cheating. As has been mentioned in this thread (and many others) it's a certain toxic behaviour of a subset of gamers that's responsible rather than behaviour specific to any game platform.

Just because it's easier to cheat on PC having an open file system doesn't mean that in general, PC players are more disposed to cheating. That's certainly not been my experience after 8 years on Xbox before heading back to PC. I'm finding that in general, PC gamers in the games I play tend to be older and far less competitive and abusive (certainly far less squeakers) than I ever experienced on Xbox live.

All in all, rage quitting has been around for decades, although reading those endless and permanently recurring threads on this forum would suggest that folks imagine somehow that it's purely an issue with ED... it was always a thing, even back in the days of competitive online matches in Quake 2 and Tribes in the 90's, albeit there was far less bleating about it. Back then, the only folks regularly online were gamers...a social subset in itself. There also wasn't any way of bleating about cheaters other than Bulletin boards ran by the gamers themselves.

Cheating is like a binary number...either 1 or 0...you do or you don't. There's no middle ground and it doesn't matter which platform you play on. Behaviour rather than a developer problem is the issue.

 

[AlexLar]

There too many ppl on this game that live in a PVP bubble.
Like the griefers who message "why you playing in open then?"
When I get salty.
Because there is a lot more to in this game than gank weak players and fight everyone else. That's why.
C logging isn't half as big a problem as the culture of murderers. Somehow they're being treated badly by people who object to being murdered.
Of course there are many good players and lots of interactions are mutually beneficial.
I think that "ganker culture" breeds the contempt and disrespect.
Dishonorable conduct is the norm in this game and clogging is the a small step on from that.

It isn't a problem that can be fixed with a software update.
It's a social problem.

In my opinion.

I concur with your opinion sir and deliver rep as (in my opinion) your post warrants.

I really wish this salty, unpleasant original post would go away.

 

[Thepirateorc]

I concur with your opinion sir and deliver rep as (in my opinion) your post warrants.

I really wish this salty, unpleasant original post would go away.

this op is not salty and id love for you to explain how its salty, does the owner of the original post not have the right to ask a question regarding something they said they were going to fix. combat logging is an issue whether its a player issue as munster said or a fdev problem, here is the thing they have not said anything about it yet Sandro in a livestream clearly said yes we have something to deal with combat logging.

I concur with your opinion sir and deliver rep as (in my opinion) your post warrants.

I really wish this salty, unpleasant original post would go away.

btw why do you want this post to go?

 

[mung0]

It isn't a problem that can be fixed with a software update.
It's a social problem.

In my opinion.

It is definitely a social issue, but one that has its roots in mechanical problems, therefore it *can* be fixed by system changes, unfortunately the scope of those changes are much too great for FD to want to swallow the cost & effort (basically dedicated servers are required instead of relying on P2P connection between players).

For a little perspective, here's a parallel from another game I've been playing of late, sea of thieves. Now for all its differences, that game has some things very much in common with ED when it comes to this particular subject - it's a sandbox-y multiplayer game with pve & also open pvp in it, so unsurprisingly, that causes friction when the pve'ers want to be left in peace to do their thing, but the pvp'ers are looking for a scrap and may get the pve'ers involved whether they want to be or not.

However, in sea of thieves, there is NO combat logging. Zero. Zip. Why is this? Because the logger gains nothing. In fact they stand to lose more than they gain. Your ship being sunk means you'll lose any loot you're carrying - but if you log, you not only lose the loot, you lose whatever quests you had going at the time. You might as well take defeat on the chin and pick up where you left off.

On the flip side, from the aggressor's point of view - if anyone does log, or scuttle their own ship, their ship automatically sinks and any treasure they had is left floating in the sea for you to pick up. So you don't get cheated of the spoils of victory if someone does wimp out on you.

If logging in ED meant your ship getting pillaged / destroyed anyway, there would be no imperative for people to combat log, and it would cease to happen. It really is that simple. But the changes needed to get ships to hang around after a disconnect are too great to embark on a solution.

For those that would be up in arms at the thought of their ships being vulnerable after an 'accidental disconnect, honest', for the millionth time, there are these two buttons on the menu screen called SOLO and PRIVATE GROUP, use those buttons if the thought of getting forced into a pvp scenario appals you. They are literally there so you can play alone or with like-minded players so you won't get dragged into any pvp you don't want. Quit the victim act and use the tools available to you.

 

[Thepirateorc]

It is definitely a social issue, but one that has its roots in mechanical problems, therefore it *can* be fixed by system changes, unfortunately the scope of those changes are much too great for FD to want to swallow the cost & effort (basically dedicated servers are required instead of relying on P2P connection between players).

For a little perspective, here's a parallel from another game I've been playing of late, sea of thieves. Now for all its differences, that game has some things very much in common with ED when it comes to this particular subject - it's a sandbox-y multiplayer game with pve & also open pvp in it, so unsurprisingly, that causes friction when the pve'ers want to be left in peace to do their thing, but the pvp'ers are looking for a scrap and may get the pve'ers involved whether they want to be or not.

However, in sea of thieves, there is NO combat logging. Zero. Zip. Why is this? Because the logger gains nothing. In fact they stand to lose more than they gain. Your ship being sunk means you'll lose any loot you're carrying - but if you log, you not only lose the loot, you lose whatever quests you had going at the time. You might as well take defeat on the chin and pick up where you left off.

On the flip side, from the aggressor's point of view - if anyone does log, or scuttle their own ship, their ship automatically sinks and any treasure they had is left floating in the sea for you to pick up. So you don't get cheated of the spoils of victory if someone does wimp out on you.

If logging in ED meant your ship getting pillaged / destroyed anyway, there would be no imperative for people to combat log, and it would cease to happen. It really is that simple. But the changes needed to get ships to hang around after a disconnect are too great to embark on a solution.

For those that would be up in arms at the thought of their ships being vulnerable after an 'accidental disconnect, honest', for the millionth time, there are these two buttons on the menu screen called SOLO and PRIVATE GROUP, use those buttons if the thought of getting forced into a pvp scenario appals you. They are literally there so you can play alone or with like-minded players so you won't get dragged into any pvp you don't want. Quit the victim act and use the tools available to you.

well said repped

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

It is definitely a social issue, but one that has its roots in mechanical problems, therefore it *can* be fixed by system changes, unfortunately the scope of those changes are much too great for FD to want to swallow the cost & effort (basically dedicated servers are required instead of relying on P2P connection between players).

For a little perspective, here's a parallel from another game I've been playing of late, sea of thieves. Now for all its differences, that game has some things very much in common with ED when it comes to this particular subject - it's a sandbox-y multiplayer game with pve & also open pvp in it, so unsurprisingly, that causes friction when the pve'ers want to be left in peace to do their thing, but the pvp'ers are looking for a scrap and may get the pve'ers involved whether they want to be or not.

However, in sea of thieves, there is NO combat logging. Zero. Zip. Why is this? Because the logger gains nothing. In fact they stand to lose more than they gain. Your ship being sunk means you'll lose any loot you're carrying - but if you log, you not only lose the loot, you lose whatever quests you had going at the time. You might as well take defeat on the chin and pick up where you left off.

On the flip side, from the aggressor's point of view - if anyone does log, or scuttle their own ship, their ship automatically sinks and any treasure they had is left floating in the sea for you to pick up. So you don't get cheated of the spoils of victory if someone does wimp out on you.

If logging in ED meant your ship getting pillaged / destroyed anyway, there would be no imperative for people to combat log, and it would cease to happen. It really is that simple. But the changes needed to get ships to hang around after a disconnect are too great to embark on a solution.

For those that would be up in arms at the thought of their ships being vulnerable after an 'accidental disconnect, honest', for the millionth time, there are these two buttons on the menu screen called SOLO and PRIVATE GROUP, use those buttons if the thought of getting forced into a pvp scenario appals you. They are literally there so you can play alone or with like-minded players so you won't get dragged into any pvp you don't want. Quit the victim act and use the tools available to you.

That's not the issue nor will that reverse the behavior.

I really don't think you all comprehend this simple fact.
Most than most, people are O K with rewards but they do not want to PvP….its really that simple. (For those who combat log) See if they are engaged and will win, they will stay but if engaged and they start to loose or will lose, they log out....It honestly means they don't want to PvP.

People who are O K with PvP aren't combat logging because they are O K with everything about it and want it to be there, whether its a risk for a reward or a loss. That is why some play Sea of Thieves because they want to PvP...and that game makes it very clear that the intent is to be a pirate after loot, under whatever means.

This game isn't designed that way, isn't nearly as intuitive and the UI and choices often allow for a strong desire to avoid PvP entirely.

 

[Thepirateorc]

That's not the issue nor will that reverse the behavior.

I really don't think you all comprehend this simple fact.
Most than most, people are O K with rewards but they do not want to PvP….its really that simple. (For those who combat log) See if they are engaged and will win, they will stay but if engaged and they start to loose or will lose, they log out....It honestly means they don't want to PvP.

People who are O K with PvP aren't combat logging because they are O K with everything about it and want it to be there, whether its a risk for a reward or a loss. That is why some play Sea of Thieves because they want to PvP...and that game makes it very clear that the intent is to be a pirate after loot, under whatever means.

This game isn't designed that way, isn't nearly as intuitive and the UI and choices often allow for a strong desire to avoid PvP entirely.

I think you cant comprehend the fact there is solo and private for those who don't want player interaction at ALL, regardless whether they do or don't they are still cheating if they log, there is nothing stopping them from high waking unless theyre fsd or drives are disabled or destroyed. Players who are in open cant accept one side of the community but quit if the pvp side come to them.
(

stay but if engaged and they start to loose or will lose, they log out....It honestly means they don't want to PvP.) so if I interdict a player and he turns around and shoots me but if im about to kill him and he logs that means he doesn't want to pvp, do you know how daft that sounds lol
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[NewBlacksmurf]

I think you cant comprehend the fact there is solo and private for those who don't want player interaction at ALL, regardless whether they do or don't they are still cheating if they log, there is nothing stopping them from high waking unless theyre fsd or drives are disabled or destroyed. Players who are in open cant accept one side of the community but quit if the pvp side come to them.
(

stay but if engaged and they start to loose or will lose, they log out....It honestly means they don't want to PvP.) so if I interdict a player and he turns around and shoots me but if im about to kill him and he logs that means he doesn't want to pvp, do you know how daft that sounds lol
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Thepirateorc,

Its not an inability to comprehend that other modes exist. Its the observation that many think they dictate what others must experience in OPEN. That isn't how it works, the game lacks any clear or suggested way of playing in OPEN, so as many suggest, they play they way they want.

While that sounds like a good way to go about it, it has a reality that everyone cannot play the way they want as choices have results and impacts. In fact, those who want to PvE can play how they want to in OPEN with others as it doesn't negatively impact others, BUT PvP cannot.

If I were Fdev I'd disable all PvP and only allow it on a OPEN PvP mode. But I'm not them....

What I do sense you is don't comprehend or care that your way isn't THE WAY all others want to play. Suggesting to go to another mode works both ways....why don't you all go to private instead of suggesting that's what others need to do? Most of us have gone to solo and private...but you all are still complaining. The issue is most don't want to play the game the way you want to play.....go make a private and enjoy the style you all want. seems to be the simple solution no one wants to utilize on this topic.

Seems it's you all who have the issue, and not the others. Considering there's a ton who don't want to PvP as evidence from the many complaint threads of combat logging concerns, those who want to PvP could likely resolve their own issue very simply.

Could it be that those who want to PvP are the one's who need to go to private to resolve this....maybe


If you interact with someone...regardless of what you think they likely aren't looking for PvP especially if you interdict them. You're going out of your way to pull someone into combat...and because they try and fight you off, you assume they are open to PvP.


CMON people....Why would you think that because they shoot back that they are open to PvP….perhaps they are trying to not blow up.

Using your logic, that suggests people getting robbed who fight back are open to criminals coming after them to engage in some form of an altercation.
Using your logic, that's literally suggesting that a bully believes everyone wants to be messed with and if they fight back, the bully isn't a bully, they are just engaging in consensual altercations.

No.....why do you all think this way...seriously?
There is something really concerning going on in your mind as well as a few others who think this way. This isn't good for gaming or social interactions of any kind.


Now if you all were to go to certain systems or installations and drop in and PvP…..and someone logs out who intentionally went there for combat, that's a different situation. From what I've seen and read for the last few years....that's never been the case.

its one person pulling another and assuming they want to PvP, even in Power Play situations where many...again as even the devs acknowledged are simply doing PP to unlock modules and play with others....not to PvP tho.

 

[mung0]

If I were Fdev I'd disable all PvP and only allow it on a OPEN PvP mode. But I'm not them....

Great news, this mythical pve-only mode you seek does exist! Its name is private group, give it a try!

It's very true that this game has always had issues with gankers and seal-clubbers. These problems are rooted in the asymmetry of the game's combat, not the fact that open mode is pvp-enabled. Complaining about people pvp'ing others in a game mode that has always fully permitted open pvp, is nothing short of absurd.