I see your point here, I do sound like a bad player however I'm not, they classed my video as griefing because if the person ran id shoot theyre drives, funny thing is these admins don't even play open and see the different playstyles, I wasn't warned nor told that I'm putting unacceptable content, they just did it.
A request for FDev; please provide an update regarding Logging/Combat Logging
- Thread starter Hairy Polo
- Start date
I understand and that’s how you believe it works but that’s not actually how it works.
There are are a good amount of others who share your perspective and there another good amount who share my perspective as well as a large third good who differ from us both.
Open is the server not what goes or the rules.
The rules would only differ in private otherwise solo and open have the same rules just that open has real players.
Cite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Dangerous
many actions which would be considered
griefing in other multiplayer games are generally permitted here, so long as a valid roleplaying reason is attached. Examples include (but are not limited to) stealing from other players, extortion, and blocking off star systems via blockade or similar means
Menu logging is exactly what it is.
I cant suggest you can’t dislike that but I disagree that it should be considered cheating, logging out, etc. regardless of what has occurred prior.
-Care bear-
Technically you are wasting their time and I also agree with the idea that it only makes sense for NPCs to do it to players because there isn’t a system in place for it. (that everyone is participating in)
Consider the logic that anything thing that happens to a commander, that commander should be able to use the game to do similar experiences to the NPCs. As such it then becomes part of gameplay for players as well as player vs players.
When that’s not the case, it’s interpreted not gameplay due to a complete and intentional lack of developer design. I don't think anyone can suggest "everyone" should consider something that only exists as role playing as "everyone" acceptable form of gameplay.
Breaking it down to an example:
So lets let’s say you and I are in open tonight and you see me and interdict me.
-You scan my ship and announce I need to jettison X amount of this in 10 seconds or you’ll open fire.
Cool if I’m game.
If Im not game, you should be cool with me saying I’m not game and leaving...as well as not responding and leaving because you never first confirmed I was role playing.
Its like the classic MMORPG games that have RP servers only those who RP should play on those servers but in a mega server situation, its each to their own....as not to impose their gameplay on others in ways that ruin someone experiences.
Something that bothers me:Very, very often during missions or mining NPCs roll up on me and announce...give me X or Y or I'll open fire. In every situation they are wanted or worse before I scan them.
-If I shoot first, often I will get attacked by them and the security because I should.
-If I try to concede and guess what, I still get attacked
Therefore:
-I first assumed I took too long...
-Then I assumed I need to jettison and split....
-I've now realized it’s just not designed right or something cause i can’t agree and so it’s annoying.
So when a player tries to do it....it’s disruptive as well as annoying
when players seek out to do it on purpose it is intentional and that’s what causes it to be “griefing”
Cite: http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate
Generally, pirates will leave players unharmed if their demands are satisfied, although some will still attack to kill afterwards. However, like any other flamboyant task, those who engage in piracy will start to become known among pilots and those who destroy their targets after receiving cargo will become known for doing so. These pirates will become known as "player killers," and pilots will be less likely to cooperate, instead attempting to escape to the death, leaving the pirate with nothing. It is therefore beneficial to long-term success as a pirate to be careful in what actions are taken and to hold to their word if a promise of no harm is made.
I have absolutely no issue with any means of any type of consensual gameplay but I have major issues with any group saying you or they must do x or y cause Open means anything goes.
(edit)
In conclusion:
If there were a change to the UI that allows consensual or more meaningful interactions with NPCs and players, we all would have full awareness and options to accept, deny, request, etc. but as is......no thanks
So for you....you are opposite than I but also the same.
You feel like why are those players here if they don’t want to play...but what if others tried to force you to only do passenger missions or explore only? If there was a way that another player could do something where you could never interdict and then say well if you want to do that other stuff you must go play solo. Open isn’t for that
thats what you’re doing
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first off hatch breakers are in the game for a reason, so there is something for piracy not a lot. I wanted to do something not many ppl did in this game I didn't want to rp police nor the terrorists, pirating I enjoy doing which can be done without a system. if someone says leave me alone I don't want to be pirated well tough luck I'm going to pirate you as I suggested at the start of this thread there should be a confirmation msg letting players know the possibilities of what can happen eg get killed by players, pirated. I wont stop pirating or killing loggers as I'm good at it. I don't consider killing loggers as griefing more like an act of revenge but that's my view on it. infact I had a guy in a cutter with a similar gt as yours who logged on me but defiantly not you cus I tried to pirate him ={. logging will be forever an issue no matter the scenario. there is solo and private for a reason, if ppl don't want player interaction and decide to log in open it can be frustrating which surely you understand since there is modes for these ppl if they just use them correctly. I'm tired off ppl logging I now resort to killing them its just the same excuses and ive reached this point unfortunately.
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-Clearly a system needs to be in place as that is why this discussion persists for multiple years.
-There should not be a message "forcing players" to play the way you want them to play. You nor anyone else even myself....we don't own Open nor do we dictate what others should be forced to do in order to have fun.
There are enough willing players...if a system was in place....that we could play consensually and I'd argue it would be a lot more enjoyable all around.
Solo and private aren't in place so a group of people can dictate when and what others do
Do you honestly believe your ideas are a solution to a better game for "most players"? Honest question as this discussion not only touches on Open but Private and solo
your missing the point, players who don't want interaction in a mode which has players doesn't make sense at all. the message doesn't force ppl it lets them know what could not will but could happen. combat logging is the issue and a temp ban from open can be the solution or a reduction of one rebuy if enough reports are sent through.
Right so I'm going to put this last thing here as this thread is honestly painful to read.
If you're not willing to have interactions that may turn out unfavorable for you then why play in open in the first place?
My favourite example of this is I was bounty hunting on night and bout 20 minutes in another player dropped into my haz so I sent them an invite and we hunted together for an hour. Another player dropped in at that point so they got an invite too and we all hunted together for so 40 odd minutes. Three of us in the wing wiped the npc's out with ease and while waiting for more targets the first Cmdr to join got bored, he sent me a message saying it was fun we should do it again and then opened up on the second Cmdr that joined us absolutely annihilated him within 2 minutes and then left. It was hilarious to receive like 4 xbox msges from the second Cmdr abusing me for not helping him and that we had wasted his time for an hour.
Moral of my little tale is that even when it seems like a favourable encounter is happening OPEN allows things to change in a heartbeat. That is the risk you ACCEPT when entering OPEN if you don't want to risk it and just want to play happily with friends or other like minded non violent Cmdrs then PGs are there for that exact reason.
Tldr: Don't play in OPEN and expect not to have unfavorable interactions with others, it's legitimately part of the game mode.
If you're not willing to have interactions that may turn out unfavorable for you then why play in open in the first place?
My favourite example of this is I was bounty hunting on night and bout 20 minutes in another player dropped into my haz so I sent them an invite and we hunted together for an hour. Another player dropped in at that point so they got an invite too and we all hunted together for so 40 odd minutes. Three of us in the wing wiped the npc's out with ease and while waiting for more targets the first Cmdr to join got bored, he sent me a message saying it was fun we should do it again and then opened up on the second Cmdr that joined us absolutely annihilated him within 2 minutes and then left. It was hilarious to receive like 4 xbox msges from the second Cmdr abusing me for not helping him and that we had wasted his time for an hour.
Moral of my little tale is that even when it seems like a favourable encounter is happening OPEN allows things to change in a heartbeat. That is the risk you ACCEPT when entering OPEN if you don't want to risk it and just want to play happily with friends or other like minded non violent Cmdrs then PGs are there for that exact reason.
Tldr: Don't play in OPEN and expect not to have unfavorable interactions with others, it's legitimately part of the game mode.
It makes a lot of sense, it’s just different than what you want. There are plenty of others sharing they do or don’t have the same point of view.
Its not that that players don’t want interactions at all. I love player interaction, but I dislike annoying or interactions that arent consensual. Sometimes i may want to be in combat but sometimes I don’t ....that’s got to be a choice as that’s server based gaming.
Just as I have the choice to avoid all player interactions in solo too or private but it should never be determined by another player or group of players
But how do you know the trader isn't actually trading something in Mahon's favour?
If you don't scan, ask/warn them, they will assume it's just griefing/ganking.
Getting killed trying to run from or take on a pirate. Perfectly fine.
Getting killed by a player in the opposing faction in a combat zone. Perfectly fine.
Getting killed by a player from an opposing Power Play faction. Perfectly fine.
What the player above did. Not fine, and I would log on it in an instant.
You are, obviously, not obliged to help the other player and the xbox abuse messages are out of order, but what that cmdr did was griefing and is inexcusable.
Now, here's the real rub.
"Players", (and I use the term advisedly) like the above are actually bad for PvP. They give the PvP aspects of this game a bad reputation and make people more likely to log on legitimate pirates, etc.
Why?
Because griefers like the above character make any encounter uncertain. Is this guy a pirate, or is he going to steal my stuff than then kill me anyway for the lolz?
So griefers like the above character are more of a threat to legitimate PvP than the loggers because they are one of the primary reasons why people log. Deal with the griefers and logging will, if not go away, will certainly be reduced. Also, if griefing was specifically banned in the game rules, and players could reclaim their losses if they were griefed, then there would be no reason nor excuse for combat logging.
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spot on my friend
that cmdr who died took the risk, we cant expect everyone to be friendly, when I came across some players, I winged up with them etc one of them tried to kill me(conda vs conda) he failed afterwards he lied to the others and they tried to kill me however I explained to them what happened and that was that, I was new to pvp and I won, why would you log if you could high wake. this is what I fail to understand, yes in some situations its not possible but honestly take the rebuy and don't be picky on when and when not to take the rebuy as you become as bad as the griefers.
Until there is suitable punishment for both griefing & logging BOTH will continue regardless
However, 1 is mostly a symptom of the other
Find a fix or punishment to stop logging - griefing will still continue as is
Find a fix or punishment to stop griefing - logging will reduce exponetially
However, 1 is mostly a symptom of the other
Find a fix or punishment to stop logging - griefing will still continue as is
Find a fix or punishment to stop griefing - logging will reduce exponetially
I think neither are the source but rather they are the result of something else.
we are reading what the issues are and here what they are:
1. NO ONE is clear on what is/is not O K in Open. (You cannot have an anything goes situation by design)
2. People are often unclear what another commanders intents are(whether good or bad)
3. There isn’t anything present in the user interface that allows quick, clear meaningful interactions
I believe you have to start with the rules and the game system has to actually make those clear without any reading. The game system also has to provide meaning and clear/obvious interactions for players and NPCs.
The combat logging and griefing are easily solved with the above as fdevs can build in mechanisms where any consensual interactions prevent menu logging but that also take action on failed connections within X seconds of any consensual interactions.
Now its only the UI that would need to offer an opt out/in for players where the only variables to override are if they are wanted, have a bounty, aligned with an opp power, etc. I also believe there needs to be additional thoughts on Anarchy systems but a lack of all of this is what’s causing the rest.
Deleted member 110222
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Because said trader is aligned to a rival power.
I understand the confusion, as I could have been clearer.
Any trade ship that isn't aligned at all is ignored. They can't do anything to influence Powerplay.
But if I catch you filthy Feds or Imps... MAN THE CANNONS!
Well, there we'll have to disagree. Someone who logs on a lolz killer isn't even close to being in the same league of scummyness as them in my opinion.
Yea that's all cool. Was hoping you didn't just open up on non-pledged players, in your puny cobra...
Deleted member 110222
D
Yea that's all cool. Was hoping you didn't just open up on non-pledged players, in your puny cobra...
Nope. Nothing to gain from NPs.
Now these guys flying Federal cargo racks... Well, can't let those documents reach home, can we?
I was doing the escape pod CG yesterday when some guy interdicted me (in a FDL, of course). I immediately submitted (because it's IMPOSSIBLE to stop a player interdiction) and patiently waited for a message. Nope, lasers. Keep in mind, I'm not wanted or pledged to a faction. I'm flying a chieftain.
So we go round and round for a little bit. None of my weapons are engineered yet, and he's disabling my targeting and lobbing fistfuls of Macross Missiles at me (packhounds) I manage to get him down to 60 hull and I'm down to about 35. I decide now is the time to run, because I don't want to give some lulzgriefer the satisfaction of killing someone who, from an RP sense (not that I'm an RPer) is doing what another player recently referred to as "God's work", rescuing people.
So I low wake, cos I didn't have time to go into the map, and of course he interdicts me again, instantly. I immediately go into the menu to log out, wait the 15 seconds, and at the 1 second mark, it CANCELS my log out, closes the start menu, and puts me into normal space....so I have to open the menu again, and wait _20_ seconds this time!?!
I still manage to log out, with about 13% hull left, and of course, here come the messages..... "Blah blah if you wanna log stay in solo" I explain that griefing someone who's doing rescues in the CG is not cute, and that I exited via the menu as is allowed. 5 or six more butthurt messages later ("A logger is a logger" etc), I wished him good luck with his future trolling and advised that if he doesn't want people avoiding him, maybe he should not attack them out of the blue for no reason.
Of course he won't listen, because a griefer is a griefer. If you want to ruin my fun, as is allowed, I will gladly counter by ruining yours, as is allowed. What's funny is I've only been playing since Feb, and I'd only been interdicted (both times attacked and killed for no reason, no cargo, no message) by other players twice ever. Go into the CG and it happens 4 times in one day. If FDev wants community events to have a sense of community, then figuring out a way to deal with toxic, bored players (who probably had a friend baby them through the entire engineering process and/or are following griefer template builds) would be an important order at hand.
I feel like you have to have a certain level of intelligence and patience to play this game, so I often wonder how these childish jerks managed to get as far as they have.
So we go round and round for a little bit. None of my weapons are engineered yet, and he's disabling my targeting and lobbing fistfuls of Macross Missiles at me (packhounds) I manage to get him down to 60 hull and I'm down to about 35. I decide now is the time to run, because I don't want to give some lulzgriefer the satisfaction of killing someone who, from an RP sense (not that I'm an RPer) is doing what another player recently referred to as "God's work", rescuing people.
So I low wake, cos I didn't have time to go into the map, and of course he interdicts me again, instantly. I immediately go into the menu to log out, wait the 15 seconds, and at the 1 second mark, it CANCELS my log out, closes the start menu, and puts me into normal space....so I have to open the menu again, and wait _20_ seconds this time!?!
I still manage to log out, with about 13% hull left, and of course, here come the messages..... "Blah blah if you wanna log stay in solo" I explain that griefing someone who's doing rescues in the CG is not cute, and that I exited via the menu as is allowed. 5 or six more butthurt messages later ("A logger is a logger" etc), I wished him good luck with his future trolling and advised that if he doesn't want people avoiding him, maybe he should not attack them out of the blue for no reason.
Of course he won't listen, because a griefer is a griefer. If you want to ruin my fun, as is allowed, I will gladly counter by ruining yours, as is allowed. What's funny is I've only been playing since Feb, and I'd only been interdicted (both times attacked and killed for no reason, no cargo, no message) by other players twice ever. Go into the CG and it happens 4 times in one day. If FDev wants community events to have a sense of community, then figuring out a way to deal with toxic, bored players (who probably had a friend baby them through the entire engineering process and/or are following griefer template builds) would be an important order at hand.
I feel like you have to have a certain level of intelligence and patience to play this game, so I often wonder how these childish jerks managed to get as far as they have.
perfect example here.
And while i know some will say it’s combat logging. It’s not.
Sure you entertained the interaction a bit a bit but it was due to what seems to be....expecting some sort of request or else. More important tho, noting you did was outside of what the game provides
Sigh.....i won’t call anyone those names but I will agree that some of the behaviors and mindsets aren’t conducive to positive and fun experiences for most. What’s concerning is an idea that “they” are entitled to this and you aren’t.
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An unfortunately perfect example of why I've never bothered with Open, and one revealing the corrosive mentality of 'free-for-all' players, i.e. selfish, and wishing to impose their playstyle on everyone else.
I do wonder if FDev could compile demographics on gankers/griefers, as I'd be curious to see exactly what age groups tend to fill their ranks. If feels like a very internetz culture raised on memes with an obsessive desire to protect what's tantamount to anonymously abusive/bullying behaviour; that their right to do whatever they wish supersedes everyone else's, and that no one ever has a right to feel aggrieved. Individual right > communal or collective.
And yeah, it is a microcosm of much of the world today, but it doesn't have to be that way. This is a frikkin' videogame, of all things, and can thus be curated.
Are FDev trying to show any leadership or direction on this? Because it feels like they're just trying their hardest to avoid coming up with solutions to improve the culture of Open. It may well be chaotically unfixable, but I'm not sure whether they're even trying (unless they somehow believe gating Powerplay will help reduce ganking).