A request for FDev; please provide an update regarding Logging/Combat Logging

[NewBlacksmurf]

Great news, this mythical pve-only mode you seek does exist! Its name is private group, give it a try!

It's very true that this game has always had issues with gankers and seal-clubbers. These problems are rooted in the asymmetry of the game's combat, not the fact that open mode is pvp-enabled. Complaining about people pvp'ing others in a game mode that has always fully permitted open pvp, is nothing short of absurd.

If if we’re going to have a discussion you have to at least try and read what was written. Nowhere does any of my comments suggest I’m seeking a PvE mode, however my comment should be comprehended as IF I were the developer team and one making the decisions, I would have a clear concise way for player to know exactly what type of experiences should exist and what is expected.

You further suggest that provate is what thats for....please read the full comment and don’t only quote parts.

Lastly im not complaining about PvP, I’m complaining about all of those who are complaining about combat logging because it’s a direct result of the ill-mindset being written and communicated in your comment as well as many other topics and comments on the subject.

Its really sad too because someone how people really believe they are entitled to bullying others and that if others don’t let it happen, they are cheating. Further that if they don’t want to be bullied they should go play somewhere else or by themselves...as if those doing the bullying are even playing with them. They aren’t, it’s a literal bullying, pushing ppl away, entitlement mentality that’s driven your experiences to where the only other interactions you’re getting or at best mediocre, seldom or poor.


Do you all hear yourselves?

 

[Hairy Polo]

I concur with your opinion sir and deliver rep as (in my opinion) your post warrants.

I really wish this salty, unpleasant original post would go away.

I think you need to go away and find out what 'salty' means. The OP was a genuine question, although the question seems largely forgotten now, unfortunately.

 

[mung0]

Its really sad too because someone how people really believe they are entitled to bullying others and that if others don’t let it happen, they are cheating.

Under the rules of the game & that of open mode, beasting players in small ships is actually permitted. There are now some in-game consequences.. yet it is permitted. The game pre-c&p update never did enough to protect against seal-clubbing. But this hardly describes the whole spectrum of pvp, and it is not an excuse for logging, which is categorically disallowed across the board, and always has been. The loggers are cheating. Source: the rules.

Yet again - if you're flying a more modest ship and don't want to be swatted like a fly, private group & solo mode are there waiting for you.

For clarity, I agree that the seal-clubbers are poison, you'll get no argument from me on that one. But they are playing within the game rules. You can twist things around in your head all you want, but the rules are the rules.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

Under the rules of the game & that of open mode, beasting players in small ships is actually permitted. There are now some in-game consequences.. yet it is permitted. The game pre-c&p update never did enough to protect against seal-clubbing. But this hardly describes the whole spectrum of pvp, and it is not an excuse for logging, which is categorically disallowed across the board, and always has been. The loggers are cheating. Source: the rules.

Yet again - if you're flying a more modest ship and don't want to be swatted like a fly, private group & solo mode are there waiting for you.

For clarity, I agree that the seal-clubbers are poison, you'll get no argument from me on that one. But they are playing within the game rules. You can twist things around in your head all you want, but the rules are the rules.

Are those the game rules? No

Is it a function the game allows? Yes

There's a big difference in those and so the game very obviously markets commanders to "

Do whatever it takes to earn the skill, knowledge, wealth and power to stand among the ranks of the Elite. ​

"​

But logic and awareness go with those and any action will create a response or reaction. So in short, the decisions of some to bully, gank, engage commanders in ways they don't want to be engaged result in commaders also doing whatever it takes to avoid the consequences they don't want to experience.

So as I wrote waaay earlier in this thread, the argument of some that suggest if you're in OPEN your subject to PvP….well, it also goes with people needing to accept that some don't want those interactions and will do whatever it takes to avoid that....including combat logging.

You will see the fdevs talk on both sides of the topic in saying the force quit is an unintended thing...but its been 3 years and they still allow it. So much so, that their comments initially on the subject are peculiar - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ging”-Update?p=1642728&viewfull=1#post1642728

I use the word peculiar because later you'll find this tone for the C&P update - https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/698b36/sandro_sammarco_lead_designer_talks_about/

So you have one part where people are force quitting and that's defined as undesired....but then you see griefing or PvP with a less able pilot also defined as undesired.
So they intentionally didn't add any system or features in place and after initially suggesting they would track and log instances, they found that they could not determine the difference between a force quite vs a network outage.

later they say this karma would only apply when there's a large disparity....blah..blah

In the end....they really don't have a solution to apply and its really discussed and even suggested from the developer that its specifically a player driven situation.

....players can stop this on their own....or in extreme cases, my suggestion is to separate people (not via Private and Solo) but in the OPEN mode as no one is complaining in Private or Solo but notice EVEN fdevs are fueling the fire to not only allow this but in some interpretations, comments suggests its encouraged based on different points of interpretation.

The real solution is literally to have Open PvP and OPEN PvE modes with strict rules even reaching to Power Play differences because we see since 2014 people, including devs are unwilling to resolve this as is without a extreme change.

The karma idea is a bunch of fluff and hot air....its basically a do this umpteen times and we will spank you but nothing really drastic. I mean who cares if someone looses a ship or two...the persons behind the behavior are still there.

its like taking a gun and knife from a criminal and never locking them up.....they'll just use another weapon. Those complaining about combat logging would likely say...whats the point if they can keep doing it and only loose their ship as I likely wont see them again.

 

[mung0]

Are those the game rules? No

Is it a function the game allows? Yes

There's a big difference in those and so the game very obviously markets commanders to "

Do whatever it takes to earn the skill, knowledge, wealth and power to stand among the ranks of the Elite. ​

"​

But logic and awareness go with those and any action will create a response or reaction. So in short, the decisions of some to bully, gank, engage commanders in ways they don't want to be engaged result in commaders also doing whatever it takes to avoid the consequences they don't want to experience.

So as I wrote waaay earlier in this thread, the argument of some that suggest if you're in OPEN your subject to PvP….well, it also goes with people needing to accept that some don't want those interactions and will do whatever it takes to avoid that....including combat logging.

You will see the fdevs talk on both sides of the topic in saying the force quit is an unintended thing...but its been 3 years and they still allow it. So much so, that their comments initially on the subject are peculiar - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ging”-Update?p=1642728&viewfull=1#post1642728

I use the word peculiar because later you'll find this tone for the C&P update - https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/698b36/sandro_sammarco_lead_designer_talks_about/

So you have one part where people are force quitting and that's defined as undesired....but then you see griefing or PvP with a less able pilot also defined as undesired.
So they intentionally didn't add any system or features in place and after initially suggesting they would track and log instances, they found that they could not determine the difference between a force quite vs a network outage.

later they say this karma would only apply when there's a large disparity....blah..blah

In the end....they really don't have a solution to apply and its really discussed and even suggested from the developer that its specifically a player driven situation.

....players can stop this on their own....or in extreme cases, my suggestion is to separate people (not via Private and Solo) but in the OPEN mode as no one is complaining in Private or Solo but notice EVEN fdevs are fueling the fire to not only allow this but in some interpretations, comments suggests its encouraged based on different points of interpretation.

The real solution is literally to have Open PvP and OPEN PvE modes with strict rules even reaching to Power Play differences because we see since 2014 people, including devs are unwilling to resolve this as is without a extreme change.

The karma idea is a bunch of fluff and hot air....its basically a do this umpteen times and we will spank you but nothing really drastic. I mean who cares if someone looses a ship or two...the persons behind the behavior are still there.

its like taking a gun and knife from a criminal and never locking them up.....they'll just use another weapon. Those complaining about combat logging would likely say...whats the point if they can keep doing it and only loose their ship as I likely wont see them again.

It's written perfectly clear in the rules.

https://www.frontierstore.net/code-of-conduct

Excerpt:

No cheating or taking advantage of exploits in the game
..
We also do not tolerate the use of any exploits or the use of any possible bugs in the game to generate player advantage.

Combat logging is an exploit. FD have confirmed this in the past. It allows you to escape intact from perilous scenarios scott free, without having to make any effort to regain control of the situation using in-game means. FD do not 'allow' logging, they simply lack the means to prevent it.

You can point fingers at the motivators that prompt people to log all you want, but you cannot correctly claim that logging does not break the rules - meanwhile, the players instigating pvp are in fact not breaking any rules.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

It's written perfectly clear in the rules.

https://www.frontierstore.net/code-of-conduct

Excerpt:


Combat logging is an exploit. FD have confirmed this in the past. It allows you to escape intact from perilous scenarios scott free, without having to make any effort to regain control of the situation using in-game means. FD do not 'allow' logging, they simply lack the means to prevent it.

You can point fingers at the motivators that prompt people to log all you want, but you cannot correctly claim that logging does not break the rules - meanwhile, the players instigating pvp are in fact not breaking any rules.

You know what's interesting about that...and I put it in my comment above.
Fdevs are NOT ADHEARING TO THEIR OWN CODE OF CONDUCT so here's why the OP created it as well as why it keeps coming up. Oddly, in that

1. One group considers it an advantage/disadvantage (no options provided for either group)
2. Fdevs declared it is an exploit (lacking information)
3. They can't track it....so is it really an exploit or did Sandro go public before he should have (they do need to track anything they plan to take action against)
4. Isn't all of this a simple solution to split OPEN by PvE or PvP vs some new Karma system idea (Sometimes the solution is right in front of them)



Discussions continues...because there's a lot of community focus on something that isn't a problem and little to no focus on viable solutions for many issues not just this one. If you first understand that many don't actually want to PvP (the risks of that), you would see the answer is very obvious.

It isn't a solution to tell ppl to move to private as eventually OPEN would be barren as CQC and we see how desired PvP is in that space and design format. There's got to be a logic based BIG change that offers incentive to each type of gameplay with others.

​

 

[mung0]

You know what's interesting about that...and I put it in my comment above.
Fdevs are NOT ADHEARING TO THEIR OWN CODE OF CONDUCT so here's why the OP created it as well as why it keeps coming up. Oddly, in that

1. One group considers it an advantage/disadvantage (no options provided for either group)
2. Fdevs declared it is an exploit (lacking information)
3. They can't track it....so is it really an exploit or did Sandro go public before he should have (they do need to track anything they plan to take action against)
4. Isn't all of this a simple solution to split OPEN by PvE or PvP vs some new Karma system idea (Sometimes the solution is right in front of them)



Discussions continues...because there's a lot of community focus on something that isn't a problem and little to no focus on viable solutions for many issues not just this one. If you first understand that many don't actually want to PvP (the risks of that), you would see the answer is very obvious.

It isn't a solution to tell ppl to move to private as eventually OPEN would be barren as CQC and we see how desired PvP is in that space and design format. There's got to be a logic based BIG change that offers incentive to each type of gameplay with others.

​

It is very well known that some players in this game do not wish to partake in pvp, while others consider it integral to the game experience. This debate has gone on ceaselessly since the game's launch. None of the arguments being presented here represent novel thinking. The fact that logging remains unaddressed is not due to apathy on FD's part. People who levy this criticism simply don't appreciate the scale of the changes required, or the repercussions. Imagine you'd spent years building a complete subway system underneath a city. Then after completion, someone comes along and says the trains need to be bigger now, and they won't fit into the tunnels you've build. That's the kind of rewrite required to get ships to stick around after they log.

But none of that changes the fact that players who don't wish to get dragged into pvp have two of the game's three modes available to support their choice. Playing in the third mode, the only one that doesn't offer them the protection they want, then cheating at the game to avoid combat / complaining about being attacked, is asinine. You drew the analogy about victim blaming, well what about when the victim skips down the dark alley at night singing "we got five thousand dollars" wayne's world style. Bearing in mind that this is in a world where the lurking murderers are not breaking any rules. Who is really the victim in that situation?

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

It is very well known that some players in this game do not wish to partake in pvp, while others consider it integral to the game experience. This debate has gone on ceaselessly since the game's launch. None of the arguments being presented here represent novel thinking. The fact that logging remains unaddressed is not due to apathy on FD's part. People who levy this criticism simply don't appreciate the scale of the changes required, or the repercussions. Imagine you'd spent years building a complete subway system underneath a city. Then after completion, someone comes along and says the trains need to be bigger now, and they won't fit into the tunnels you've build. That's the kind of rewrite required to get ships to stick around after they log.

But none of that changes the fact that players who don't wish to get dragged into pvp have two of the game's three modes available to support their choice. Playing in the third mode, the only one that doesn't offer them the protection they want, then cheating at the game to avoid combat / complaining about being attacked, is asinine. You drew the analogy about victim blaming, well what about when the victim skips down the dark alley at night singing "we got five thousand dollars" wayne's world style. Bearing in mind that this is in a world where the lurking murderers are not breaking any rules. Who is really the victim in that situation?

1. players who don't wish to get dragged into pvp have two of the game's three modes available to support their choice (This is not true, you're acting as if the other two modes offer tons of players. This doesn't even read as an option when we all know that more players don't want to PvP than those who do. That is why this whole discussion exists in the first place.) And fdevs are making this even less of an option with the proposal of OPEN only game features in the recent two proposals of Power Play as well as the discussions on Squadrons.

If there were more players who wanted to PvP than those who didn't it wouldn't be a topic at all. You'd have some one off situations at best but to be clear...when I write "if there were more players who wanted to PvP than those who didn't" I'm specifically talking about people who are not adverse to any cause and effect of well meaning and ill mannered players at all times. It just doesn't exist as evidenced on these forums, Reddit, and both Xbox One and PC open text chat conversations.

2. then cheating at the game to avoid combat / complaining about being attacked, is asinine (Cheating at the game.....avoiding combat.....complaining about being attacked.....asinine. These are all separate items:

Cheating at the game: While Sandro does define force quit as unintended, he also clarifies that logging out is not cheating. I think people tend to lump things together due to a lack of clarity and understanding...so being that they fdevs themselves cant tell the difference between force quit and network outages, I'd propose that we can't tell the difference between, network outage, force quite and save and exit.

Avoiding Combat: This is an interesting thing because the act of avoiding combat....is simply not initiating combat with others. Anyone who interdicts another is not avoiding combat but someone being interdicted has only a few options. Save and Exit, in some rare builds speeding away and jumping out a few times before another commander can catch up....but let me insert another idea, if they force quit during being interdicted, is that cheating too? (Honest question...and how would you know)

Complaining about being attacked: So this one touches on a bed of thorns with me because I'm fine with someone interdicting me and asking for cargo if they are a pirate or even combating me if I'm an opposing Power in Power Play. What often is a complaint are when other commanders pull and shoot (gank) when I have no cargo, no criminals, not wanted, not an opposing faction or power, etc.

So then I go to Private or Solo but then there's the attitude that the above behavior is fine cause the game says you can play as you want. Conveniently, people seem to ignore that while some things are possible "griefing" is also defined by Sandro as undesired and mentioned as such in the same breath as combat logging....Sandro also writes

In response to combat logging versus "griefing" (which I will define here as killing a much weaker vessel with potentially a lower combat rated pilot): both are considered "undesirable" behavior. ​

Asinine: So to me the ones causing people to combat log and then who go on complaining about it....that is literally asinine. Those who know how to play in the sandbox with others and aren't the cause of either of the above are not asinine.

​

 

[mung0]

Cheating at the game: While Sandro does define force quit as unintended, he also clarifies that logging out is not cheating.
​

Did Sandro actually categorically say this, or is that your interpretation / inference? If you can point to where he wrote this I'd be very interested to read it.

"griefing" (which I will define here as killing a much weaker vessel with potentially a lower combat rated pilot)

Lol you don't just get to redefine existing terms as you please. Griefing has a pretty well established definition, and it is not the one you are using. Griefing is interfering with another player to disrupt their game / progress, often but not always involving the exploit of unintended mechanics, or tricking players into misplays. A good example of that in elite is those players who hide near stations in a cloaked and almost-destroyed ship, waiting for other players to appear that they can crash into, so they intentionally die while the other player gets blamed for 'murder' due to how the game mechanics work.

Killing another player is not labelled griefing just because they are weaker. Your description above already has another specific definition - seal-clubbing. You don't play a pvp game and call someone who kills you a griefer. That is beyond stupid. Claiming that ED is 'not a pvp game' is almost equally stupid, because by definition it is, it's a game that includes and fully permits open pvp. The fact that you don't want to pvp yourself, doesn't make the game itself not-pvp. Players cannot redefine the overarching game rules based on their own whims. Though many players appear to adhere to the baffling illusion that they can.

The problem with seal-clubbing is that pre-c&p, the game's design did nothing whatsoever to discourage it - in fact, while not explicitly encouraging it, it very much helped to enable it. Having new players all start in the same place (pre-horizons), with no compensatory security measures provided for their protection, was the perfect recipe for a seal-clubbers paradise. Highly unfortunate, but there it is.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

Did Sandro actually categorically say this, or is that your interpretation / inference? If you can point to where he wrote this I'd be very interested to read it.



Lol you don't just get to redefine existing terms as you please. Griefing has a pretty well established definition, and it is not the one you are using. Griefing is interfering with another player to disrupt their game / progress, often but not always involving the exploit of unintended mechanics, or tricking players into misplays. A good example of that in elite is those players who hide near stations in a cloaked and almost-destroyed ship, waiting for other players to appear that they can crash into, so they intentionally die while the other player gets blamed for 'murder' due to how the game mechanics work.

Killing another player is not labelled griefing just because they are weaker. Your description above already has another specific definition - seal-clubbing. You don't play a pvp game and call someone who kills you a griefer. That is beyond stupid. Claiming that ED is 'not a pvp game' is almost equally stupid, because by definition it is, it's a game that includes and fully permits open pvp. The fact that you don't want to pvp yourself, doesn't make the game itself not-pvp. Players cannot redefine the overarching game rules based on their own whims. Though many players appear to adhere to the baffling illusion that they can.

The problem with seal-clubbing is that pre-c&p, the game's design did nothing whatsoever to discourage it - in fact, while not explicitly encouraging it, it very much helped to enable it. Having new players all start in the same place (pre-horizons), with no compensatory security measures provided for their protection, was the perfect recipe for a seal-clubbers paradise. Highly unfortunate, but there it is.

Scroll up, the references were already linked in my prior comments on page 14....yes that is what Sandro said and or wrote. One is a Forum post and the other was from their YouTube live feeds they do....this was on the C&P live show before it went live.

Also, I'm not redefining anything, that is a quote from Sandro.

See that's what I've been writing, a lot of people are coming into this discussion with their own ideas and when I or someone refers to what the devs are saying and have wrote they take a tone with the person commenting.....thing is, its not me or us, its directly from the devs.

Also, pre C&P if you follow and watch the Live shows and read Sandro's posts in the main and feedback forum sections, it was explicitly encouraged which is why he later posted that they were looking into it. Notice how this tone in the topic doesn't align with the other comment in the 2nd link.

LINK 1(2017)


LINK 2 (2015)

The info is out there, you gotta to watch and read it.
Another reference: http://laveradio.com/lave-radio-episode-177/


​

 

[Robert Maynard]

Did Sandro actually categorically say this, or is that your interpretation / inference? If you can point to where he wrote this I'd be very interested to read it.

Here:

Hello Commanders!

To clarify: the official stance on exiting the game via the menu, at any point, is that it is legitimate. I suspect at some point we may increase the "in danger" countdown, but for now you just have to wait fifteen seconds.

However, we can't speak for how other Commanders view such actions.

For the record, when we talk about "combat logging" at Frontier, we mean the act of ungracefully exiting the game (either by ALT-F4 type procedures or by cutting the network traffic).

 

[mung0]

Here:

Thanks Robert!

Smurf, Sandro is referring specifically to menu-logging above as being game-legal, this is different to alt-f4 / 'pulling the plug' which Sandro addresses in your link 1. Menu logging at least has the good grace to start a countdown if you're in combat before permitting you to leave - pulling the plug does not, it removes you from any danger instantly.

Of course both forms of logging are considered bad form in the eyes of many pvp-focused commanders, but they are two separate animals, since one is technically permitted (as per Sandro's comment above), while the other is definitely not (as per link 1 in your last post).

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

Thanks Robert!

Smurf, Sandro is referring specifically to menu-logging above as being game-legal, this is different to alt-f4 / 'pulling the plug' which Sandro addresses in your link 1. Menu logging at least has the good grace to start a countdown if you're in combat before permitting you to leave - pulling the plug does not, it removes you from any danger instantly.

Of course both forms of logging are considered bad form in the eyes of many pvp-focused commanders, but they are two separate animals, since one is technically permitted (as per Sandro's comment above), while the other is definitely not (as per link 1 in your last post).

Yep, I know...

Did my comment suggest otherwise?
Sorry if that was in any way suggested

 

[mung0]

Yep, I know...

Did my comment suggest otherwise?
Sorry if that was in any way suggested

My apologies, you're right I got mixed up there didn't I, you already said the same [noob]

You still have PG to support your preferred gameplay style though. You'll never convince the pvp crowd to leave open, so while PG may offer less players, you can always encourage like-minded players to come with you. It IS a viable alternative.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

My apologies, you're right I got mixed up there didn't I, you already said the same [noob]

You still have PG to support your preferred gameplay style though. You'll never convince the pvp crowd to leave open, so while PG may offer less players, you can always encourage like-minded players to come with you. It IS a viable alternative.

I think my additional comments may have removed the focus of the conversation where it doesn't belong.
The issue according to what is often discussed is the PvP players....not PvE players in OPEN.

That is why I keep writing, a solution isn't to suggest PvE players move to solo or PG. The solution is to force and separate PvP enabled and PvE only OPEN modes. Not so PvE players aren't bothered but so PvP players who are the problem, can intentionally join a situation where Save & Exit is different as well as Alt+4 perhaps has a karma consequence.

Its literally an issue with people who only want the benefits of PvP and not the consequences. I would suggest these players who are "combat loggers" are technically PvP players in OPEN. This has become another broken record discussion as those who are the problem aren't those who the PvP community wants or seeks to blame as being the problem.


I describe them as not "actual" PvP players as they are not willing to face the cause and effects of such.
-Just to be clear, I personally use a lot of PG and Solo but the topic isn't about those who do or don't use PG or Solo or even those PvE players who may use OPEN and not PG or Solo.
The mass majority of PvE only players aren't even in the conversation nor do they have any impact on this because if we look at this at its surface.....if I know I never want to PvP….then I wouldn't be on OPEN in the first place and I can control who has access to PG.
now I passionately disagree that I SHOULD or NEED to play in PG or Solo especially when there’s obviously issues that need to be addressed but I’m not on here complaining about combat logging....it’s me complaining about those complaining about combat loggers.

 

[Gabino Barrerra]

I say the best solution is to take out private groups and solo play.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I say the best solution is to take out private groups and solo play.

That would most likely not have the effect you would like.

Ebay potato router sales would explode

 

[EponymousCowherd]

That would most likely not have the effect you would like.

Exactly the opposite, I'd guess.

 

[Thepirateorc]

That would most likely not have the effect you would like.

Ebay potato router sales would explode

Was about to read your post but got distracted by your pic and now I have soo much tin foil on me I look like a white shining knight