Or that, it also shows how fortification can (and is) exploited in such a way to make turmoils worse?
Just as with all 5C its impossible to ultimately tell- but it does happen.
Powerplay A word on 5c, and the state of Powerplay
- Thread starter Intersection
- Start date
- Status
Just as with all 5C its impossible to ultimately tell- but it does happen.
As has been iterated several times now, this thread was reopened to have a good faith conversation about 5C, its affects on powers as a whole, its affects on the community of those powers, and possible ways to stop it. It is a conversation worth having, and has been clearly informative to several people, many of whom have posted that they didn't know what 5C was before reading this thread. Your comment on the other hand, is clearly bad faith.
The Feds have given several pieces of evidence, which have spurred generally good and constructive conversation about 5C, if at times a bit heated, but never devolving into blatant flaming or slug throwing or accusations against specific people, as you are suggesting. And while you are free to disagree with the assessment of the evidence, constantly asking the forum to be closed because you don't like the evidence does nothing to advance the conversation, while also weakening any legitimate arguments you have made.
The fact that there's also over 7K views on this thread, with people asking and learning about 5C, clearly shows that there is interest in this topic. Because 5C affects every power, there shouldn't even be a debate as to 5C existing in the first place. It's also because 5C affects every power, having a conversation about it is important to coming up with solutions that work for everyone.
I invite you to scroll up a little - here was my reply to QueensPawn:
In case your memory's still hazy, I'd like to remind you that every undermining merit in your December op was held. Held merits, by definition, do not show up in the power menu. Think about it for a second - how do you expect randoms to respond to undermining they can't even see?
Last edited:
Not only that, when discussing open vs. single-player, I was told :
No one has the right to restrict what you've already bought. That is, if I play the game for solo flight and want to play in the Power Play I will always do.
We have already told you that some of your systems were undermined "a little" (and handed-in), so that they show as "under threat". Not a difficult concept to understand. Of course, you have been calling that "5c".
What evidence? There has only been wild accusations and speculations. If you think the Empire has "cheated" in some way, please feel free to raise a ticket.
Previously I have accused Hudson of botting; I had hard evidence - they were presented to FDev via a ticket (by me), shortly afterward one of your leaders got banned (maybe coincidence - idk). Why don't do the same and present your "evidence" to FDev?
Please, let's keep things civil.
I'm... not sure what you're talking about? I did clearly write December op.
It gets better.
Say they made 5C against TOS, how could one distinguish a 5C attack from a Red team attack from just regular forting/undermining?
Cases would get absurd at ludicrous speeds.
Those who say this isn't blurry are just wrong. Plain and simple.
I think the most fair and even observation I can give is that while none here should be accused of botting, exploiting, 5C etc. All here have taken advantage and benefit of those that have.
Once again, having eyes on the Imperial op in this case, I cannot see intentional 5C going on. Only targets to undermine, undermine progress etc etc.
If there are shady actors doing things away from the rest of the group, that's not something anyone here can control. I mean, let's get real a moment. If you are organizing the PP efforts of 4-5 organizations against a target, are you reasonably going to stop because someone cries foul, or someone completely unrelated gets shady? Nuh-uh. No-one here would do that, even if they say they would, I flat don't believe them.
I say this to be very clear, that I think it would be wise for all sides to step back from mudslinging and accusations, because honestly between discord and this, if I were to take everything as read, both sides would be utterly monstrous to each other, and fair play would be so far off of the table that it would be sitting at the bottom of the mid pacific.
We can all promise to be good, and not perform deliberate 5C warfare on each other. But, as noted by myself and others previously, nothing will change.
Who knows. Maybe if Hudsons bubble continues to burst, maybe Fdev will clue in that there is a problem and fix something? I personally doubt it but can anyone here argue that it would take anything less?
You asked "how do you expect randoms to respond to undermining they can't even see?", and I answered - they can see!
Both you, I, and anyone else who has been participating in PP for some time can see that FDev doesn't care about PP; why else would they left a game breaking bug (the CC Income Bug - which btw you exploited to your full advantage, what happened to "fair play" then?) unfixed for over a year? Then more recently, the PP UI bug that you have also exploited, enabling you to turmoil Mahon (you had no issue with "fair play" there either).
If FDev cares about PP, none of the above would have happened, or at the very least, any changes to the PP landscape caused by the use of those exploits should have been reversed.
But you know FDev won't touch PP with a bargepole, and as I have said previously, a member of FDev actually endorsed the use of 5c, so what is the point of this entire thread? The way I see it, you are looking for sympathy simply because things are not going your way, you want to paint a picture of the "big, evil Empire" bullying little Hudson using any means necessary. Well, unlike you, there is a line that we don't cross.
I'm not going to bother with further comments to this thread, people reading this can make their own conclusion.
Both you, I, and anyone else who has been participating in PP for some time can see that FDev doesn't care about PP; why else would they left a game breaking bug (the CC Income Bug - which btw you exploited to your full advantage, what happened to "fair play" then?) unfixed for over a year? Then more recently, the PP UI bug that you have also exploited, enabling you to turmoil Mahon (you had no issue with "fair play" there either).
If FDev cares about PP, none of the above would have happened, or at the very least, any changes to the PP landscape caused by the use of those exploits should have been reversed.
But you know FDev won't touch PP with a bargepole, and as I have said previously, a member of FDev actually endorsed the use of 5c, so what is the point of this entire thread? The way I see it, you are looking for sympathy simply because things are not going your way, you want to paint a picture of the "big, evil Empire" bullying little Hudson using any means necessary. Well, unlike you, there is a line that we don't cross.
I'm not going to bother with further comments to this thread, people reading this can make their own conclusion.
I think you're a little confused.
We were discussing the ALD operation against Hudson that occurred last December - I reminded you that all merits at the time were held, and that randoms could not possibly have noticed them. The point being that the blanket fortification Hudson saw that cycle was carried out by our commanders, not by randoms - and that Hudson did, in fact, have good control over his own forts, unlike what you were implying.
As for the rest of your concerns - those are symmetrical bugs that all sides have openly taken advantage of over the years, because playing around them meant neutering core Powerplay mechanics for indefinite amounts of time (no one knew when these bugs would be fixed). It's unfortunate, but we all had to play with the hand we were dealt.
None of these things are true about 5c: 5c is a design oversight rather than a bug, Powerplay works as intended without it, and all powers have vocally agreed, at every occasion, not to engage in it.
I'll say this again: just because 5c exists, just because it is hard to eradicate, just because Frontier seems unwilling to address it - none of that means we shouldn't take a stand against it.
That, to me, is tantamount to giving up. 5c has caused enough damage as it is.
Last edited:
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Last and final warning to refrain from making accusations against players / groups of players who support the various Powers / groups of Powers.
Failure to heed this warning will result in thread closure.
Failure to heed this warning will result in thread closure.
Well, they've effectively restricted/changed what we've bought in all kinds of ways, and the EULA doesn't really promise us anything. Indeed, it explicitly states that Frontier can do whatever they want to the game, and if a player doesn't like it, they can sod off:
Most EULAs are similar. They can revoke anyone's license, at will. They can change the terms of that license, at will.
In practice, some jurisdictions' consumer protection laws limit what they can do, but if they decided to make Power Play Open-only, they would be well within their legal ability to almost everywhere. It just wouldn't mean anything without an overhaul of networking and block.
Even if they discovered that it was a legal grey area, there is nothing to prevent them from rendering given gameplay mechanisms defunct, then introducing replacement mechanisms with different restrictions.
And yet, that's not what your people have been using the opportunity to do. The accusations continue unabated, and the mods continue to have to intervene. You say you are bringing evidence of 5C. That's exactly the problem. This conversation right now should not be about evidence. It should be about policy, or it should be shut down. If you consider bringing evidence against us good faith and us debunking said evidence bad faith, then there is no way for us to defend ourselves against false allegations without arguing in bad faith, at least according to your false definition. What is bad faith argument is saying that you will have a civil conversation about how 5C can be stopped and using the opportunity to sling mud at your opponents. The mods have told you to stop already. What is so hard about following the rules of this forum?
Back to productive topics though, I just had a thought that could be immensely helpful against 5C if implemented. A dedicated in-game message board built into the powerplay screen for pledges only. Organizers could use it to post orders in a place where randoms would be able to see them without having to join an external community, and if you have anyone posting contradictory orders in order to sow confusion would have to do so under their own CMDR name, so they couldn't flood the board to confuse the randoms without revealing their usernames, and flooding this message board with contradictory orders could be as frowned upon as 5C is now. This does nothing to stop intentional 5C, but it could do a lot to reduce unintentional fortification or preparation of the wrong systems and highlight where intentional 5C is in use, which would help greatly with both reducing false accusations and with people using randoms as cover for intentional 5C, effectively helping resolve the issue that spawned this thread regardless of who is correct in their accusations.
Last edited:
This thread is nothing but that. it started as that (Feds accusing AD of wrongdoing because Hudson's crumbling), it stayed as that throughout, and it'll continue to be that until you shut it down.
I haven't seen a more blatant attempt to work the ref in a good while, and it's really sad.
Just do it, man. Push the "close thread" button. It'll be a mercy.
From what I've seen as of latest few pages, it is nothing of the sort. The two main points (from my PoV) have been:
1) Whether what is going on within Hudson is 5C or randos fortifying. The only flashpoint/arguments going on in this thread is revolving around this topic. Personally, I don't see how anyone can view it as rando activity, but to each of their own I guess.
2) Discussion about 5C in general. We've seen this with individuals asking what 5C is. This sort of ties in with the first point as explaining what 5C is, is much easier using an example. If you want to use your own examples (such as the ALD case, the one on reddit that pestered AD to prep/expand to a terrible system, Patreus, or Torval) then go ahead. As someone stated earlier, with the amount of views this thread has gotten, it is good to spread awareness of the issue.
So no, I don't think this thread should be closed. PPers in general should be happy that we are spreading some awareness here that there is a glaring issue within PP (among many). Here is hoping that FDev will finally give some attention to the neglected step child at some point, though I ain't holding my breath.
So just stating an opinion or arguing that the fortifying patterns going on within Hudson seem to be 5C is accusatory or propaganda? If that's the case, then I guess we shouldn't talk about the 5C problem at all in PP.
Last edited:
The OP accuses us of 5Cing you. We challenged the question of whether it was 5C at all, but if it is determined to be 5C, the next accusation becomes "the Empire did it" once again. There's nothing innocent about any of this.
So what you are saying is we cannot discuss or have an opinion on the Hudson matter in this thread cause if it is indeed 5C that is going on within Hudson then it makes the Empire look bad?
Don't know what to tell you. All I'll say is that any 5C incident that has occurred with any power does benefit their enemies. With that point of view then, you can go back to my previous point, we shouldn't talk about 5C in general because it can make many powers "look bad".
- Status