About ATR

[Genar-Hofoen]

Dear Frontier,

Keep up the excellent work - if anything make ATR even less realistic, as it's amusing to see some folks who were previously mocking the "MUH MERSSIONS!" crowd, resort to "MUH MERSSIONS!" themselves.

ATR should be as rabid as Eve's CONCORD, in my opinion.

Yours sincerely,

Someone who really is chuckling in the background.

 

[StiTch]

Dear Frontier,

Keep up the excellent work - if anything make ATR even less realistic, as it's amusing to see some folks who were previously mocking the "MUH MERSSIONS!" crowd, resort to "MUH MERSSIONS!" themselves.

ATR should be as rabid as Eve's CONCORD, in my opinion.

Yours sincerely,

Someone who really is chuckling in the background.

Only the PvE crowd have been losing their minds over the new C&P update more than anyone else.

In fact as always it's the murderers that are least affected by all this, which was a point I made early on.

So I'll join in chuckling with you, because it's been excellent to watch the "BUT CRIMNALS SHULD BE PUNISHED WITH SUPAH DEATH!!1!" crowd start raising posts en masse that read "WHY AM I BEEN HASSLED BECUASE I GOT A FINE DOING CRIMNAL STUFF?!!?"

 

[Arguendo]

That SJA cannot program anything competent is definitely a misconception.

The 2.1 release showed they could create something even moderately feisty, based on good engineering and some nice tactics. I have absolutely no qualms that SJA could program something much, much better. SJA is one of the good eggs.

Are you talking about the 2.1 Beta AI, or the post-2.1 Release AI? Because according to SJA herself, the AI was not nerfed after the release of 2.1, but was adjusted during the Beta.
So, in the actually released game we have never seen the AI you are talking about, but we have seen NPCs with broken weapons due to Engineering bugs. Did you enjoy those? If you did, I seriously doubt you encountered the Multicannon PA NPCs.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Only the PvE crowd have been losing their minds over the new C&P update more than anyone else.

In fact as always it's the murderers that are least affected by all this, which was a point I made early on.

So I'll join in chuckling with you, because it's been excellent to watch the "BUT CRIMNALS SHULD BE PUNISHED WITH SUPAH DEATH!!1!" crowd start raising posts en masse that read "WHY AM I BEEN HASSLED BECUASE I GOT A FINE DOING CRIMNAL STUFF?!!?"

I for one am loving the changes - and I'm primarily a PvE player - I reckon the ones you are talking about haven't really been reading about all the changes and are subsequently surprised when their old habits (NPC murder sprees to affect BGS for example) are biting them in their butts

 

[StiTch]

Are you talking about the 2.1 Beta AI, or the post-2.1 Release AI? Because according to SJA herself, the AI was not nerfed after the release of 2.1, but was adjusted during the Beta.
So, in the actually released game we have never seen the AI you are talking about, but we have seen NPCs with broken weapons due to Engineering bugs. Did you enjoy those? If you did, I seriously doubt you encountered the Multicannon PA NPCs.

I did mention "based on good engineering and..."

I am aware that much of the potency of post-2.1 NPCs was based around strong engineering that got nerfed.

However there were, as far as I am aware, a small number of additional changes to tactics primarily around fleeing during shields. Players were upset that NPCs were fleeing when shields were downed, and so quickly that many players barely got to hit the enemy when unshielded. Iirc it was a more gradual adjustment, and saw something of a return in recent updates prior to 3.0, though much less speedy and therefore resulting in a lot of engagements being effectively shooting a running target.

I for one am loving the changes - and I'm primarily a PvE player - I reckon the ones you are talking about haven't really been reading about all the changes and are subsequently surprised when their old habits (NPC murder sprees to affect BGS for example) are biting them in their butts

Burying the hatchet for a moment, I can see where some folks are coming from. Fines went from "meaningless" to "huge inconvenience" overnight but the circumstances a fine is issued weren't really reviewed, so even I will confess that there's an undue amount of hassle for what's effectively a tiny transgression.

But my concerns with the ATR don't boil down to "it's too difficult because magic weapons". Conversely, as I pointed out earlier, they were already being soloed in the beta. In a nutshell if the ATR relies on gimmicks, they can be circumvented - don't bring a shield and handwavium-powered shield disappearing weapons suddenly mean far less, for example. But also it's been well established that one can just run away from them and resume business with little difficulty.

Capable NPC wings that work tactically and have the best flight skills in the galaxy would be far more believable and engaging, yes - but also more consistent.

FTR when I have a problem with 'mershun complaints, it's generally because someone is touting realism as the reason a change needs to happen. No, we don't need to up the anaconda hull mass because 400T is unrealistic, when said 'conda can go from place to place through magic hyperspace tunnels as an accepted game mechanic...make a good game, brah.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

That SJA cannot program anything competent is definitely a misconception.

The 2.1 release showed they could create something even moderately feisty, based on good engineering and some nice tactics. I have absolutely no qualms that SJA could program something much, much better. SJA is one of the good eggs.

However the player base continually soil themselves whenever someone even mentions difficult AI, and proceed to fling the product of their soiling at anyone that suggests it's appropriate or even optional.

Which makes it all too easy for FD to fall back on magic shield disappearing weapons in place of developing believable task forces.

That's fair enough that you are confident in SJA's abilities. I never saw much of the infamous 2.1 NPCs with their plasma accelerator multicannons myself, and being a fair-to-mediocre pilot, my only knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of the AI comes from better pilots who post on this forum and videos of them making a mockery of the AI that has always been a challenge to me personally. So though SJA definitely has the skills to program AI that challenges and betters someone like me, I remain skeptical that she could make one that is better than the best human pilots. Then again, the Thargoid AI is pretty incredible stuff, so I do have some hope.

I did mention "based on good engineering and..."

But my concerns with the ATR don't boil down to "it's too difficult because magic weapons". Conversely, as I pointed out earlier, they were already being soloed in the beta. In a nutshell if the ATR relies on gimmicks, they can be circumvented - don't bring a shield and handwavium-powered shield disappearing weapons suddenly mean far less, for example. But also it's been well established that one can just run away from them and resume business with little difficulty.

Capable NPC wings that work tactically and have the best flight skills in the galaxy would be far more believable and engaging, yes - but also more consistent.

FTR when I have a problem with 'mershun complaints, it's generally because someone is touting realism as the reason a change needs to happen. No, we don't need to up the anaconda hull mass because 400T is unrealistic, when said 'conda can go from place to place through magic hyperspace tunnels as an accepted game mechanic...make a good game, brah.

I think you hit the nail on the head here though - the ATR ships are meant to be enough of a threat that you need to run away, but not so overpowered that you can't run away. Sandro said numerous times that their purpose is not to destroy you, but make you leave the area, but that they are more than capable of destroying you if you choose not to leave.

I wholly agree with you that FD shouldn't have had to resort to these crazy reverb cascade burst lasers to do it though. Copying successful PvP or Troll builds should have been enough with the right tactics. Maybe they ran out of time for programming good tactics and had to go with the easy route?

 

[Arguendo]

I did mention "based on good engineering and..."

I am aware that much of the potency of post-2.1 NPCs was based around strong engineering that got nerfed.

However there were, as far as I am aware, a small number of additional changes to tactics primarily around fleeing during shields. Players were upset that NPCs were fleeing when shields were downed, and so quickly that many players barely got to hit the enemy when unshielded. Iirc it was a more gradual adjustment, and saw something of a return in recent updates prior to 3.0, though much less speedy and therefore resulting in a lot of engagements being effectively shooting a running target.

I think there is a mix up of which updates were made when tbh. Iirc the NPCs running away when shields were down was not part of the 2.1 Engineers update, and I can't find any discussions about that topic around the time 2.1 was dropped. So I believe that was another update, but feel free to send me to a link to prove me wrong.

According to SJA herself, NPCs were tweaked a bit during the Beta for 2.1, but after that the only thing added to the NPC AI was a reverski feature on the larger ships to stop the endless circling and some tweaks to their steering logic and boost control. That does not account for the claims about "much better AI that was nerfed" which is claimed alot in these forums.

I do not diagree with wanting better NPCs/AI, but I disagree with the claims that the AI of the NPCs was "nerfed to the ground due to player outcry." There is no evidence of this, and it did not happen according to the person who programs them.

 

[Arguendo]

I think you hit the nail on the head here though - the ATR ships are meant to be enough of a threat that you need to run away, but not so overpowered that you can't run away. Sandro said numerous times that their purpose is not to destroy you, but make you leave the area, but that they are more than capable of destroying you if you choose not to leave.

Yes, they were never supposed to be insta-killers. They were however meant to make you stop what you're doing and leave the area. Currently, they only make you leave the instance. NPC amnesia is killing any effect the ATR has on criminal actions.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

Yes, they were never supposed to be insta-killers. They were however meant to make you stop what you're doing and leave the area. Currently, they only make you leave the instance. NPC amnesia is killing any effect the ATR has on criminal actions.

It shouldn't be that hard for FD to make it so that ATR ships pursue you in Supercruise. They don't even have to "remember" you - just make it a thing like when NPC Bounty Hunters spawn and chase you all over the galaxy, or where missions spawn attack craft that home in on you, or where simply having cargo spawns pirates that try to rob you; that the variables are
- Do you have a large enough Bounty for ATR response?
- Are you currently in the jurisdiction of those Bounties?
- If both = true, then spawn ATR ships in Supercruise to pursue and interdict you

Both of those points are already checked by the game for other things, and implementing Supercruise pursuit would make it very risky to stay in the same system, or even jurisdiction as where you committed the mass murders. That would be "leaving the area", rather than just leaving the instance, AND it avoids having to give ATR NPCs persistence.

 

[Father Cool]

They were however meant to make you stop what you're doing and leave

the area. Currently, they only make you leave the instance. NPC amnesia is killing any effect the ATR has on criminal actions.

Is that really true? I was hassled a little by them last night in a rez site. I accidently shot a perp before the scan had finished and they were called in. I jumped out and back in about 4 times and as soon as I started shooting again (this time with finished scans) they were back. I was in a wing though so maybe the instance wasn't reset for me because my buddies were still there.

Having said that I had 40 seconds each time to start killing stuff before retiring to a safe distance. I was never even shot by them so I do question the point of them if not to drive you off for crimes, we did leave in the end though so effective to a degree. My understanding though is that they were introduced to stop griefers, in that respect they are absolutely no use at all.

They 1) do not respond fast enough to stop someone being unfairly killed by a griefer (40 seconds!) and 2) As they provide additional toughness to the NPCs that the better pilots crave, they actually promote bad behaviour toward others in order to get them to arrive and provide a challenge. This is a laughable solution to a much complained about problem to me.

However "handwavium" it may be, the ATR should just be uber hard (impossible really) foes that come to stop unsavory players attacking innocent real player pilots for no reason and be so relentless that the griefer can only run or be killed. That would be ATR with a point. They shouldn't be "added content" they should be a ruler across the knuckles for the class bullies.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

Is that really true? I was hassled a little by them last night in a rez site. I accidently shot a perp before the scan had finished and they were called in. I jumped out and back in about 4 times and as soon as I started shooting again (this time with finished scans) they were back. I was in a wing though so maybe the instance wasn't reset for me because my buddies were still there.

Having said that I had 40 seconds each time to start killing stuff before retiring to a safe distance. I was never even shot by them so I do question the point of them if not to drive you off for crimes, we did leave in the end though so effective to a degree. My understanding though is that they were introduced to stop griefers, in that respect they are absolutely no use at all.

They 1) do not respond fast enough to stop someone being unfairly killed by a griefer (40 seconds!) and 2) As they provide additional toughness to the NPCs that the better pilots crave, they actually promote bad behaviour toward others in order to get them to arrive and provide a challenge. This is a laughable solution to a much complained about problem to me.

However "handwavium" it may be, the ATR should just be uber hard (impossible really) foes that come to stop unsavory players attacking innocent real player pilots for no reason and be so relentless that the griefer can only run or be killed. That would be ATR with a point. They shouldn't be "added content" they should be a ruler across the knuckles for the class bullies.

ATR only spawn after a certain high threshold of murder crimes. They don't get called in for petty assault, or even killing without finishing the scan. Those would have been standard system security ships.

 

[Arguendo]

Is that really true? I was hassled a little by them last night in a rez site. I accidently shot a perp before the scan had finished and they were called in. I jumped out and back in about 4 times and as soon as I started shooting again (this time with finished scans) they were back. I was in a wing though so maybe the instance wasn't reset for me because my buddies were still there.

Yes, this is very much true. ATR will forget about you if you leave the instance (ie. lowwake) and will not remember that they were looking for you until you actually assault someone again. The time from you assulting anyone to them appearing goes down based on your Notoriety level iirc.
It's a silly mechanic that is true for all NPCs, except the ones that interdict you (ie. mission related NPCs, pirates, or Bounty Hunters). They ofcourse remember who they interdicted
Which makes me wonder why ATR can't fly in Supercruise when someone goes on a killing spree and hunt down the criminal in Supercruise. It's such an obvious thing that boggles the mind, but somehow FDev didn't even think to consider. I guess they thought everyone would highwake as soon as ATR appeared

Having said that I had 40 seconds each time to start killing stuff before retiring to a safe distance. I was never even shot by them so I do question the point of them if not to drive you off for crimes, we did leave in the end though so effective to a degree. My understanding though is that they were introduced to stop griefers, in that respect they are absolutely no use at all.

The were introduced to stop all major crime, including against NPC, not just players. An example would be a commander in solo killing enough NPC Security Ships to put the system into Lockdown. ATR responds to that as well, as they should because you really shouldn't be able to stay that long in the system all by yourself.

 

[Arguendo]

It shouldn't be that hard for FD to make it so that ATR ships pursue you in Supercruise

Apparantly it is

They don't even have to "remember" you - just make it a thing like when NPC Bounty Hunters spawn and chase you all over the galaxy, or where missions spawn attack craft that home in on you, or where simply having cargo spawns pirates that try to rob you; that the variables are
- Do you have a large enough Bounty for ATR response?
- Are you currently in the jurisdiction of those Bounties?
- If both = true, then spawn ATR ships in Supercruise to pursue and interdict you

I agree that they should hang out in Supercruise as well, but only after a certain amount of crime has been reported. Then they should actively hunt for the criminal, serial interdict them, and harass them enough to either stay and die or leave the system.

At the moment it's just an incentive to make uber-killing ships and hit the absolute softest targets to make sure the target is killed before ATR shows up and can do something about it. Then repeat ad nauseam

 

[Father Cool]

ATR only spawn after a certain high threshold of murder crimes. They don't get called in for petty assault, or even killing without finishing the scan. Those would have been standard system security ships.

Ah right fare enough. They just never told you before so I assumed ATR.

The rest of what I said stands though. The ATR ships don't really deter the players that they were meant to. They do indeed need to hunt players and make their game less fun should they do something a little 'psychotic' shall we say.

 

[Cosmo]

So what do the Void Runners and Blue Epaulets look like?

 

[besieger]

So what do the Void Runners and Blue Epaulets look like?

Normal ships with flashing lights...

 

[dutchy2000]

So what do the Void Runners and Blue Epaulets look like?

Oh and they have sound comms chatter, so you immediately know the difference between the ATR and regular cops who don't have that.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

Once ATR have been summoned, they should be first responders until you leave the system, not the instance of local space.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

Hello Commanders!

Once ATR have been summoned, they should be first responders until you leave the system, not the instance of local space.

What about Supercruise pursuit?

 

[Cosmo]

Normal ships with flashing lights...

Can you take a screenshot? I thought they had special paintjobs.