About DRM and the need to connect to the internet

[Dejay]

Eliteangerous!
You cannot play the game offline, it's not possible, it needs a server.
I classify this as DRM as a side effect.

You are somewhat right, but only somewhat. When you drill down to the explanations from Micheal and David of why online only you get two relevant reasons:

1. "We would have to make an offline version of the galaxy server and we don't want you to have access to that"
2. "We think the core vision (of multiplayer?) would be reduced with a single player offline mode.

The second reason is a rather obvious circular argument. Sure the idea of single player offline is to play single player offline, no doubt about it. It's what I want. If I don't want to be in competition for influence in the galaxy from other players, the argument doesn't hold. It's not unreasonable or surprisingly different from the vision that the game set out to because that is what was promised and what we expected. It's a feeble attempt at a jedi mind trick. I know what I want.

The first reason is rather unclear but basically it's either a "security through obscurity" argument (no datamining and make it slightly harder to create bots (but only very slightly!). The other explanation is that they don't want you to create mods, have fun with the game the way you want to or want to remain control to avoid piracy (DRM!).

All in all I don't accept their explanation. For me it's not about DRM per se but willfully denying the player something out of spite or arrogance.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

Wait, I thought you can run it and play it offline, but you wont be able to do very much?

Negative. You cannot run it and play it offline. You need to be connected and able to send and recieve data packets every 5-10 seconds, and you need to be logged into your account and authenticated with Zaonce's central servers with your account which is bound by FDEV's t's and c's in order to be able to connect.

Unless you count the tutorials (and even those might end up being bundled in as well), but that's about it. No connection or no account equals no spaceships for you.

 

[Spectre Alpha]

I don't think it has to do with DRM, I think it is a case of poor programming and an inability to fix their code to allow what so many other game producers can do.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

They've already said the decision is design and creative, not technical. It's all about THE VISIONᵀᴹ, and FDEV's desire to enforce it, whether the people desire it (as people who wish a connected experience do) or they don't (as those like me who wanted an offline Elite like off the BBC micro)

I think you may find people respond better to your points if you can express them without being so patronising.

You make a fair comparison, but in using SimCity's offline patch you highlight a key difference: SimCity was *capable* of running offline - hence all it took was a patch. E|D is *not* capable of running offline. Not all of the game - possibly not even the bulk of it - is held locally. That is an important distinction for the argument you're making.

There's no reason it can't be, honestly. They've made it clear the only reason they won't is because of THE VISIONᵀᴹ. There is no technical reason why one could not create a proc-gen galaxy and mission generator like I've outlined in other posts and create a very good facsimile of earlier Elites with current gen graphics, that would be quite enough to satisfy the offline crowd.

As for my tone, well, that's what happens when people spread FUD. People should stick to facts, it might save everyone a lot of wasted time and energy then. Yes, I'm still riled about this.

 

[ChickenBandit]

There has been much muttering about the lack of offline play and one of the theme arising has been that ED was promised to be DRM free.
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Some posters are saying that the need to always be online to play means that FD have gone back on their promise to make ED DRM free.
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I don't think the need to be connected to the internet is the same as DRM and here is my argument why.
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If I have an open source web browser (say Firefox) that is indisputably DRM free. There is no electronic (or in the case of FF legal) restriction on me installing in on as many machines as I like.
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If I install FF on a machine without internet access, I cannot access web pages, I cannot look at the latest stock prices, news, check my email etc.
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Does that mean that FF has DRM because it requires an internet connection for full use?
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​

My understanding is that ED can be installed on any machine, but you are only allowed one connection per user to FD's servers for stock prices, news, messages, match making. If you don't have an internet connection then you can't access that information and the software doesn't work because of a lack of that information, not because DRM.
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I suppose FD could make this really beyond doubt by making the tutorials available without an internet connection. Then there would be no question over the DRM.

You can try and argue semantics as much as you like, but the simple fact of the matter is that requiring authentication to Frontier's servers to play the game is Digital Rights Management. Whatever Frontier's intent was in this is irrelevant, DRM doesn't have to be explicitly about preventing piracy to be DRM.

 

[serrasalmus]

Guys....come on.

Its so obvious that the decision to make this online only is all about MONEY.

If the game did not have to connect to the net - the game on release (even the beta) would have been cracked and up on the major torrent sites in about 12 hours.

The way the game is designed is to stop that, this has been hard-wired into the very basis of the game.

During BETA, it would have been much easier to "trial" some features of this game without struggling with un-optimised network code....but that never happened - by design.

This is a long term plan and not a decision made further down the line.

There are no accidents here...we are dealing with very clever and very savvy people.

 

[Spectre Alpha]

They've already said the decision is design and creative, not technical. It's all about THE VISIONᵀᴹ, and FDEV's desire to enforce it, whether the people desire it (as people who wish a connected experience do) or they don't (as those like me who wanted an offline Elite like off the BBC micro)



There's no reason it can't be, honestly. They've made it clear the only reason they won't is because of THE VISIONᵀᴹ. There is no technical reason why one could not create a proc-gen galaxy and mission generator like I've outlined in other posts and create a very good facsimile of earlier Elites with current gen graphics, that would be quite enough to satisfy the offline crowd.

As for my tone, well, that's what happens when people spread FUD. People should stick to facts, it might save everyone a lot of wasted time and energy then. Yes, I'm still riled about this.

Yes, they were quite happy taking money and promising a voice in the direction the project takes but when push comes to shove they don't really care about the players, just their bank accounts.

 

[Anopheles]

I don't understand why people who want an offline version just don't go and play oolite, which is Elite, with a bigger selection of modded ships and no pesky real people to bump against and iirc is free.

 

[specialsymbol]

There has been much muttering about the lack of offline play and one of the theme arising has been that ED was promised to be DRM free.
-
Some posters are saying that the need to always be online to play means that FD have gone back on their promise to make ED DRM free.
-
I don't think the need to be connected to the internet is the same as DRM and here is my argument why.
-

If I have an open source web browser (say Firefox) that is indisputably DRM free. There is no electronic (or in the case of FF legal) restriction on me installing in on as many machines as I like.
-
If I install FF on a machine without internet access, I cannot access web pages, I cannot look at the latest stock prices, news, check my email etc.
-
Does that mean that FF has DRM because it requires an internet connection for full use?
-
​

My understanding is that ED can be installed on any machine, but you are only allowed one connection per user to FD's servers for stock prices, news, messages, match making. If you don't have an internet connection then you can't access that information and the software doesn't work because of a lack of that information, not because DRM.
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I suppose FD could make this really beyond doubt by making the tutorials available without an internet connection. Then there would be no question over the DRM.

No, your analogy is skewed.

If you install Firefox on your system you can not only run firefox, you can use it to open and display any webpage that you have stored on your computer.
If you are a developer, you can develop web pages without being connected to the internet. Firefox doesn't use the internet as DRM.



If you have a game that only runs when connected to the internet, or better: to the producer's server then it is DRM. It is, because when you hand out the game to someone else he can't simply play the game without having an account.


I don't see stock prices or trading prices being affected by other players as crucial to the experience of Elite: Dangerous.


I also don't understand the claim that during beta testing people have been playing only online, so that's what they want - has there been offline play available yet? If not, how can Frontier Development tell that offline is not wanted by the players? I also don't get the point that Braben sits in a train and still can play Elite. I wonder what happens when he takes the tube.

 

[stamasd]

I don't understand why people who want an offline version just don't go and play oolite, which is Elite, with a bigger selection of modded ships and no pesky real people to bump against and iirc is free.

Already playing Oolite, and many versions of the Elite games (FFD3D for one).

When I pledged my money, I understood that what I was pledging for would be a better Oolite, from the creator of the original Elite.

Sadly it turned out to be false.

 

[specialsymbol]

I don't understand why people who want an offline version just don't go and play oolite, which is Elite, with a bigger selection of modded ships and no pesky real people to bump against and iirc is free.

I don't understand why you want to drive a car when you can go out and get a bobby car which also has four wheels. Oh, and you don't have to pay for fuel, too.


Really, what is your point?
That people backed a game they wanted, that was described to have certain features and now that those features are crossed out they are not happy with the result? Does this really surprise you? In what world are you living?

 

[Anopheles]

I don't understand why you want to drive a car when you can go out and get a bobby car which also has four wheels. Oh, and you don't have to pay for fuel, too.


Really, what is your point?
That people backed a game they wanted, that was described to have certain features and now that those features are crossed out they are not happy with the result? Does this really surprise you? In what world are you living?

Feature. Fee a chur.

Just the one. And you are bemoaning the loss of a slice of tomato off a plate salad no, a buffet.

 

[specialsymbol]

Feature. Fee a chur.

Just the one. And you are bemoaning the loss of a slice of tomato off a plate salad no, a buffet.

Wrong. Offline play is a totally different kind of gameplay than online playing. It's not just the connection. This one "feature" takes away a world of experiences.

 

[Hussars]

I have two issues with this whole "offline only" furore. 1. If you don't have an internet connection, how are you even playing the Beta? 2. The original Elite, and Elite Frontier were two of the most pirated games of all time. You cant honestly expect a game that is only sold via the internet to have no DRM in place, that would be lunacy from a business perspective.

It's more about the option to play the game, even in a limited capacity, without the need to maintain an active connection to the internet/game servers. There are several reasons a person could have for this want, such as being on a data-rate monitored connection (satellite/tethered hotspot/etc...), which makes the game effectively unplayable for them without a potential for a serious service fee from their ISP. The reason games that do require a network connection ("always-on" or not), no matter how small that data amount might be, include a statement calling this out and clarifying that the user is responsible for those associated charges.

The situation these people are in now is effective ownership of a product that did not include that warning of a required connection for any/all gameplay features to be accessible. If it was known that this aspect of the product was going to not make it into the final game prior to the announcement (some of the cited quotes are putting the dev team's knowledge of this intent back a year or more), the funding for the game would likely look very different than it does now.

"Heart-beat" monitors and/or micro-data transmission requirements (which are technically considered "DRM" by various people as shown in this thread) are designed into the network framework, and the development team has specifically said this was a design choice, not a technical one, but I'm betting it is actually somewhere closer to a point between the two.

 

[Kungfu]

http://frontier.co.uk/features/features/?artid=328&blk=214

this is whats up, i'm sure the new investors offer took the pulling of single player into account when they bought the property from us.

The ugliness of the kickstarter and any fallout from the decision are inconsequential to their new direction.

Clearly some people saw what is going on over at CIG and wanted in on the action.

If you can actually manage to read this statement (linked above), do they seem like a customer focused company to you?

They forgot to put a "(yet)" on the sentence about 'cashing out'.

Seen this one play out about a hundred times before, its all over but the fat lady singing

I wonder how much money it took

 

[jabokai]

Haven't read the whole thread, just the OP and the OP is wrong. It's called always-on-DRM - why is this even at dispute?

 

[Zeyi]

Haven't read the whole thread, just the OP and the OP is wrong. It's called always-on-DRM - why is this even at dispute?

Unfortunately there is a bandwagon of people who think signing into a launcher isn't DRM.

There is also a bandwagon that are saying things like "you should have known this could only ever be online" and "you should have known no games company would release it DRM-Free". These statements are frankly ridiculous. People expected those things because they were described, multiple times in multiple places. The DRM-Free is in the kickstarter rewards and is therefore subject to a refund according to the 2012 Terms of Use.

I cannot fathom how some people are so selfish and will sit idly by and ignore a company screwing over some of its most loyal backers. It's disgusting.


https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012

Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

They are saying they wont refund people, they are breaching the Terms of use. It is as simple as that.

 

[pantbash]

OP is correct.


I can only assume people are trying to push the DRM fallacy to give themselves some more leverage on the whole refund question.

...................................................................

N.B.

The person on this thread who most seems to know what they are talking about is Pibbles.
By all accounts he is trying to get people help on the refund issue, so I would see his information as having least bias.

In fairness, the need to connect to the Internet is not necessarily DRM. DRM simply means you have to prove you are authorised to consume the content. This could be DRM in an enterprise whereby a certificate is presented and validated by a certificate authority before you can read certain documents, and this is in fact a very common implementation. This could be DRM by a smart card or other token (e.g. iPod), also very common. You may never have to personally authenticate, least of all outside the internal network.

DRM is not defined by a need to connect to the Internet, DRM is defined by the need for you or a device to prove identity to consume content. It MAY be that you authenticate to an external, Internet authentication provider to do this, but that does not correlate back the other way.

I do not approve of how FD have handled the decision re offline play and am going to help as many people as I can get a refund, but that's not on the basis they have introduced DRM, but on the basis they have moved the goalposts on offline.

Have FD introduced DRM by the back door? Maybe, but we cannot say that until we see the finished game. Is there more ongoing connectivity to the central servers required than initially planned in order to shore up the security weak P2P model? Very likely I would say, but again I have not seen the finished game.

But this is not the issue, it's how FD are going about it. They assessed the technical impact and did something about it but forgot the important bit, how to deal with the customer impact. That's why everyone is irritated.

 

[beelbeebub]

Note: I've updated the OP to provide a better analogy than FF
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The DRM issue is open to interpretation. Some people think that simply having to connect to FD servers is not itself DRM others are saying that the need to connect to FD servers is DRM. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between DRM views and a desire to get a refund.
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If it came down to a court case the sad fact is that central issue of ED's DRM status would be decided by a judge, who has probably never used "one of those new fangled computer things" and thinks "the internets, isn't that what paedophiles use?"!
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A DRM free version was a pledge reward for KS backers of a certain level, I'm unsure if a DRM free version was available for everyone else. The actual wording was:
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Physical DRM-free boxed edition of "Elite: Dangerous" plus all rewards above (please note: the disc in the pack is simply an alternative way to install the game - it will have the same online account code whether installed off disc or downloaded digitally).​

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As you can see it mentions the online account code, implying that you will need to connect to the internet. So I would argue that simply because you have to connect to the internet )i.e. there is not offline mode anymore) doesn't not mean FD are not delivering on the KS pledge.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Lets have a go at this.

Compare Windows 8.1 and Elite Dangerous do they have DRM?

Windows: Can be used on or off line at any time, installation must be validated either online or by phone, so internet is not needed, can only be installed on one machine/licence. Verdict has DRM.

Elite Dangerous: Can only be used online due to software limitations, installation does not need validation, and client can be installed on as many machines as you want.
Verdict Does not have DRM

Just trying to show that DRM had nothing to do with an internet connection