Adjusting to NPC behaviour

[SteveWW57]

Patch 6 brought some changes, making NPCs act differently. I noticed this in my first non settlement clash when they fired on me from a longer range than expected. I am now doing my first settlement mission to restore the power. I usually land about 1000m away) after sketching the layout), preferably in dead ground and drive my SRV to the target. Being aware of the changes I approached the settlement even more cautiously, using dead ground around it to to make the majority of my approach. NPCs were observed, and they initiated combat sooner and at a longer range than expected when I became visible. Advancing and retreating from/back into the dead ground I was able to engage on my terms. Taking too much damage? Retreat and advance again. Having got rid of the NPCs I was making a circuit to identify the building before deploying on foot, when an additional NPC team dropped in. I have only seen this at non settlement locations. As they were in the open, they were fairly easy to take out, provided I retreated when taking damage or in danger of getting swarmed. My previous SRV engagement ranges were often sub 100m, but now many engagement ranges are in the region of 200m.

Only time will tell whether I was lucky or my tactics worked.

Steve 07.

 

[ubermick]

Having the same issue - am finding myself under fire from NPCs that are too far out to register a scan, let alone show up on my suit radar. Given the fact they’re also not using flashlights in the dark, its making things… challenging.

 

[Retropolitan]

Having the same issue - am finding myself under fire from NPCs that are too far out to register a scan, let alone show up on my suit radar. Given the fact they’re also not using flashlights in the dark, its making things… challenging.

That's the range where I prefer to kill them (yay Executioner!) so I can't complain about that. But they do seem to be able to see you from very far away.

I haven't decided whether I like that yet. I do like having to exercise a lot of caution when I approach - I'd reached a point where picking off scavengers was just too easy - but they seem a little too perceptive when I'm in tucked into partial cover. Raiding a powered-up settlement seems to be quite a bit more challenging, too, for the same reason.

This change may be a tough hit for anyone who's just starting out with G1 gear. Now, if the NPCs' perception ramps up with a mission's threat level, that could be a good thing.

 

[SteveWW57]

I have done a fair few restore missions and looting over the past few days. Some have had scavs in, some not. My basic tactics with the SRV work. The scanner shows rough locations so I can approach what I think is the most isolated target(s) first. Sometime several scavs can move toward you, saving the trouble of hunting them down.

Three times to far I have had to dismount as the lone surviving scav cannot be got at from the vehicle. The were not moving so it was relatively easy to determine their general location. One time I jumped up onto a nearby roof with my Executioner and was able spot the scav in a small yard. One shot and gone. Another time the scav appeared to be lurking under or near an overhead walkway in a 'valley' between two parts of the complex. With my Executioner (poor choice of weapon really) deployed I cautiously turned under the walkway, straight into the Scav. Fortunately the three rounds in the mag were enough. A third time I was never able to locate the scav in a STO building even though he was shooting at me. Gave up in the end, as I had done what I wanted done already.

[FONT=arial][SIZE=4]Retropolitan[/SIZE][/FONT] mentioned about starting out with G1 gear. This only really applies if you do not have a bit of cash. A G3 maverick suit and a couple of weapons can be had relatively cheaply.​

Steve 07.

 

[Zeke Drexel]

Just completed a military base raid, and to my surprise (and delight) my usual 1-shot executioner rifle only took away about 2/3 of the guards health on a couple of occasions, and their tormentor pistols seem to have gotten an upgrade too.

 

[Retropolitan]

[FONT=arial][SIZE=4]Retropolitan[/SIZE][/FONT] mentioned about starting out with G1 gear. This only really applies if you do not have a bit of cash. A G3 maverick suit and a couple of weapons can be had relatively cheaply.

Steve 07.

I think you're assuming that new players know that they can buy upgraded gear and have figured out how to look for it.

 

[SteveWW57]

I think you're assuming that new players know that they can buy upgraded gear and have figured out how to look for it.

Agreed. I suspect though that they may have watched a vid or read a post. Unless they are like me and live under a rock.
Steve 07.

 

[MoodBear]

I do not agree that new players should look at web sites for where to purchase upgraded gear and believing that is sufficient for tackling ground missions. Players should progress the way they want. I check the supplier everywhere I land and if they have a deal, great. If not, great. I continue to play as I want. I don't check web sites to target some system elsewhere to get gear "that is required to progress".

There should be no design that makes settlement missions nearly impossible for G1 suits/weapons because assumptions that everyone will take short cuts to get better gear right off the bat. The challenge should be based on the level of the player's mercenary level and the Threat level. Higher threat levels are very difficult without higher level gear. That is fine. But making ALL settlement missions extremely difficult and suicidal with G1 regardless of player level and Threat level? Not fine.

 

[ubermick]

Agreed - I'm all for natural progression, but at the moment the adjusted NPC behaviour in addition to the flashlight bug means that unless you have upgraded gear with night vision, you're going to struggle even against "mostly harmless" NPCs - especially for players not used to FPS games.

 

[CMDR Marcus Bulltarsky]

Looks like the days where I could take out 15 to 20 scavs completely on foot without resorting to the SRV are over. When they turn on their shields, they are at least a bit more visible from a distance. This has effectively changed my clear scav mission MO where, at night, my first step is to attempt to turn on base power with my Maverick, then go back to SRV to change back into Dominator for scav kill, then back to SRV for Maverick to do base scavenge. Problem is when Power Plant is heavily guarded and you get the scav swarm attack. Then, have to retreat to SRV and take a few out so that numbers are whittled down to a manageable level.

I also think the AI might be a bit improved in that they do a better job of taking cover -- although still not perfect when they just run around in the open when attacked by SRV turret. Need to change that so that they immediately take cover when SRV opens up. That way, they are only vulnerable when you draw them out in the open.

I have Level 4 Maverick and Dominator suits, but I would imagine the changes in Patch 6 make it extremely difficult for Level 1 suit players. However, they can always do multi-player to even the odds out a bit (especially if they team up with a higher level player).

CMDR Marcus "Scav-Hunter" Bulltarsky

 

[ubermick]

You’re doing sterling work ridding the galaxy of the scavvie scum, commander.

Are you one of the lucky ones not experiencing the black screen hang when switching loadouts in the SRV?

 

[CMDR Marcus Bulltarsky]

You’re doing sterling work ridding the galaxy of the scavvie scum, commander.

Are you one of the lucky ones not experiencing the black screen hang when switching loadouts in the SRV?

Yes, I have no problem switching loadouts in the SRV. Also, my multi-player friend also is able to switch loadouts in SRV. Must be particular to certain computer hardware.

 

[ubermick]

Now today, I just went to a scavvie cleanout mission (in-system) at a tourist settlement, landed, no scavs to be found.

Left, supercruised away, came back, no scavs to be found.

Logged out completely to desktop, and back in - scavs there, but wiping them out didn't generate a mission success (and noted they didn't have the "tick" saying how many needed to be eliminated). Also noticed that when targeted with the SRV turret to gauge range, they were ~450m away. Immediately had shields up and closed straight on my position.

And of course, in having to log out and back in to get scavengers to spawn AT ALL stripped the entire settlement of goods/materials.

https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/40536

 

[CMDR Marcus Bulltarsky]

Now today, I just went to a scavvie cleanout mission (in-system) at a tourist settlement, landed, no scavs to be found.

Left, supercruised away, came back, no scavs to be found.

Logged out completely to desktop, and back in - scavs there, but wiping them out didn't generate a mission success (and noted they didn't have the "tick" saying how many needed to be eliminated). Also noticed that when targeted with the SRV turret to gauge range, they were ~450m away. Immediately had shields up and closed straight on my position.

And of course, in having to log out and back in to get scavengers to spawn AT ALL stripped the entire settlement of goods/materials.

https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/40536

Have had that happen a couple of times before with Patch #5; although, the last time, I arrived to an empty base with no mission message/counter, and then as I was walking through the base about 20 scavs came in via dropships. Left and then respawned, land at the base and have the message window with a counter to kill 22 scavs (original mission was 7). However, the base only had the original 7 scavs, so no way to reach the 22 needed for success. So far, I have done literally over 100 scav kill missions (since Patch 5) and only had that error happen twice, so not as flagrant as the still bugged POI crash site / larceny missions (after Patch 6).

 

[Maolagin]

not as flagrant as the still bugged POI crash site / larceny missions (after Patch 6)

Those, at least, I'm pretty sure you can tell if they're bugged now before you accept the mission. The tell seems to be that the system in the mission text doesn't match the system in the destination box lower down.

 

[Maolagin]

There should be no design that makes settlement missions nearly impossible for G1 suits/weapons because assumptions that everyone will take short cuts to get better gear right off the bat.

I'm all for playing the way you want, but I don't see the problem with this. In Horizons, CZs are extremely challenging with starter gear, because they're designed to be content with a higher challenge level. Similarly, I don't in principle have a problem with settlement combat missions being more challenging, so long as other content (salvage, lawful transport, etc) is available for beginners.

That said, some of the current challenge definitely seems directly due to bugs (e.g. no flashlights, excessive perception/aggro distance) rather than intended game design. Hopefully we'll get fixes soon!

 

[Comandante]

Patch 6 brought some changes, making NPCs act differently. I noticed this in my first non settlement clash when they fired on me from a longer range than expected. I am now doing my first settlement mission to restore the power. I usually land about 1000m away) after sketching the layout), preferably in dead ground and drive my SRV to the target. Being aware of the changes I approached the settlement even more cautiously, using dead ground around it to to make the majority of my approach. NPCs were observed, and they initiated combat sooner and at a longer range than expected when I became visible. Advancing and retreating from/back into the dead ground I was able to engage on my terms. Taking too much damage? Retreat and advance again. Having got rid of the NPCs I was making a circuit to identify the building before deploying on foot, when an additional NPC team dropped in. I have only seen this at non settlement locations. As they were in the open, they were fairly easy to take out, provided I retreated when taking damage or in danger of getting swarmed. My previous SRV engagement ranges were often sub 100m, but now many engagement ranges are in the region of 200m.

Only time will tell whether I was lucky or my tactics worked.

Steve 07.

I've done a bit of testing WRT this, however, still nothing 100% conclusive.

I've tested several scenarios:

1. Turning up in the ship and doing a low fly-by of the base so that scavengers see my ship; this is the worst - from that point onward, their range of vision/shooting is massive - what I think is happening here is that from that point on, whichever mode of transport I use - SRV or foot - it is the initial size (ship) range that is used for their vision distance;
2. Turning up in my ship such that I am NOT seen, then going in via the SRV and making sure I am seen in it - their range of vision/shooting is greatly reduced compared to the ship but still greater than normal - I think, although I've had mixed results with this one;
3. Turning up on foot without having been seen in the ship OR SRV - mode goes back to pre-patch 6, i.e. their vision/shooting range is normal. Doing it this way enables me to go back to pre-patch 6 sniping.

(1) and (3) I can confirm, although I need to re-test (2).

I've also noticed that visual range differs between troop types - with Sharpshooters having the longest visual range.

Now I know that I can actually get inside a base and go back to my old sniper tactics, I am enjoying it again. The first few times were harrowing as I didn't know about the patch note change where they become more aware if you get too close in a vehicle. I actually quite enjoy going in low over the horizon, finding a hill or gully to park my ship in, getting the SRV out and then doing the last few hundred meters (depending on where I can hide the SRV) on foot (not a problem with Increased Sprint Duration and Improved Jump Assist).

 

[ubermick]

@Comandante - great intel/research there.

 

[Comandante]

I have Level 4 Maverick and Dominator suits, but I would imagine the changes in Patch 6 make it extremely difficult for Level 1 suit players. However, they can always do multi-player to even the odds out a bit (especially if they team up with a higher level player).

Based on my post a few messages up, I'd say it's perfectly doable with G1 gear.

The secret is to go in undetected - I quite like that - prior to patch 6 I could land my ship right outside the base and they'd be none the wiser. Do the same now and you'll be greeted with a hail of fire.

The only disadvantage to G1 gear is the time it'll take you on foot once you've parked your ship and/or SRV. Other than that, I think it's perfectly doable.

 

[Comandante]

I've done a bit of testing WRT this, however, still nothing 100% conclusive.

I've tested several scenarios:

1. Turning up in the ship and doing a low fly-by of the base so that scavengers see my ship; this is the worst - from that point onward, their range of vision/shooting is massive - what I think is happening here is that from that point on, whichever mode of transport I use - SRV or foot - it is the initial size (ship) range that is used for their vision distance;
2. Turning up in my ship such that I am NOT seen, then going in via the SRV and making sure I am seen in it - their range of vision/shooting is greatly reduced compared to the ship but still greater than normal - I think, although I've had mixed results with this one;
3. Turning up on foot without having been seen in the ship OR SRV - mode goes back to pre-patch 6, i.e. their vision/shooting range is normal. Doing it this way enables me to go back to pre-patch 6 sniping.

(1) and (3) I can confirm, although I need to re-test (2).

I've also noticed that visual range differs between troop types - with Sharpshooters having the longest visual range.

Not I know that I can actually get inside a base and go back to my old sniper tactics, I am enjoying it again. The first few times were harrowing as I didn't know about the patch note change where they become more aware if you get too close in a vehicle. I actually quite enjoy going in low over the horizon, finding a hill or gully to park my ship in, getting the SRV out and then doing the last few hundred meters (depending on where I can hide the SRV) on foot (not a problem with Increased Sprint Duration and Improved Jump Assist).

The things I've not figured out so far:

1. What's their visual range for detecting a ship? Is it a constant for all ships e.g. 1Km or different for small/medium/large ships?
2. Is the visual range affected by LoS or just a constant distance? E.g., will I get detected flying right above the base at 2Km, but the visual range is 1Km when at the approaching from the side?
3. What's their visual range for detecting an SRV?

I'm using an Asp Explorer to do my missions; I've been parking ~2.5Km LoS from the base with the ship (closer if there's a ridge or gully/ravine to hide in with no LoS to the base) and ~500m with the SRV with LoS to the base, even closer if there's no LoS.

If any CMDRs can confirm the above results (points 1 - 3 in previous post) that would be great, or get some data on points 1 - 3 in this post.

My next test later this week (earlier if I have the time) will be to 'leap frog' to the base in the ship - i.e., land 2.5Km away, deploy SRV (without moving it), check scanner - do scavengers go red? If not, get back in the ship, advance 100m, rinse and repeat until an effective visual range is calculated - at least for my medium-size ship.