AI: We Can Have It Both Ways And All Be Happy

[Riverside]

What was that comment supposed to prove? I suck at combat (and Nitek is most certainly better at it than me), but I want the Elite universe to be a believable place to spend my time. Having NPC's magically spawn based on my own combat rank is not believable, it is in fact pretty much as gamey as you can get it.

Why are you opposed to having the AI spawn based on your chosen location and play style? Surely that would allow anyone, in whatever ship they choose, to adjust the difficulty to their liking. I want places to go that feel dangerous, where I can deliver stolen goods and get assassination contracts, and I want places to go that feel safe, where I can trade legal goods, and get legal haulage missions and go about my business without fearing Elite FDL's. I want the possibility to make an enlightened choice regarding how I play the game, and I want to be able to change my mind from session to session.

Currently the only choice I have is to keep my Combat Rank low, or allow it to increase. I can choose between what I have now, or a future filled with Elite pirates, but I can never go the other way. What is the point of that?

I'd have to agree with you about the rank based AI, I'm Elite & don't really want to have to deal with that level of attention at any moment, at my level it somewhat locks me out of the smaller ships. But when I ranked up (I reached Elite in 1.3 I think) I had to go & find high ranking NPCs.

Reading your Sig you are Competent, so ironically you're probably seeing the kind of NPCs I'd be happier to see, and I'm getting yours

I hope you (all) stay in the game, I hope you'll find a way to reach your level. There's a few suggestions on the board atm but if you find another that works for you & you think others will appreciate an idea from one of their own please do post it up.

But if you find tic-tac-toe boring, and tic-tac-toe against twenty 10 year olds is still no fun, try chess...

 

[Ian Skippy]

...and, what's more, there is a well known precedent for this.

I quote,


Planetary governments, or federations, determine the relative safety of their Solar Space. Ranked in decreasing order of safety, the 2040 officially registered worlds of the Galactic Federation can be classified as

• Corporate States
• Democracies
• Confederacies
• Communist States
• Dictatorships
• Multi-Governments
• Feudal Worlds
• Anarchies

CORPORATE STATES

Like ENGEMA and ZAATXE, these are well-ordered worlds, which have usually developed from settlers who practiced a free trade form of competition. Taxation is high on such worlds, but the living standards are high also. Corporate planets with to protect their trade, so goods are expensive, but luxuries are welcomed. Import licences are often necessary.

Engema is an agricultural world, run as a single farming co-operative. Farmers receive a fixed payment for their crops, whether or not the harvest is good, and selling prices do not vary greatly. It is a dependable market, and customer relations are good. Luxuries, machinery and raw materials sell well here.

Zaatxe is an example of a rich, industrial state (Tech level 12). It produces luxury goods, elaborate and innovative machine systems, and specializes in Prototype design. Prices fluctuate depending upon the level of inter-state competition, but it is always a safe bet to buy recently-developed machine items which have not yet spread very far across the galaxy.

DICTATORSHIPS

Dictatorships such as the worlds Lave and Enzaer, are only moderately safe to trade with, but are well worth the risk (provided the trader is well defended and combat trained). Very often pirate attack will not occur because of an agreement between pirate fleets and the world itself. A proportion of all incoming trade is "allowed" to be stolen by pirates, who will then leave the world alone, and protect its shops from aliens or rogue traders. It is an uneasy liaison, which often breaks down.

Lave is an agricultural world, and Enzaer an industrial planet, but a similar principle operates on both surfaces. There are two trading standards, that of the People and that of the Aristocracy. Standards of living are artificially generated, a veneer of progress, and luxury goods, machinery and textiles sell well - usually. The great demand, however, is for basic commodities, especially foodstuffs, clothing and raw materials. These will sell well when the voice of the People has been raised in protest.

ANARCHY PLANETS

A trader can make his biggest profits here and reach his grave the quickest. Worlds like Onisou and Xeesenri have vast wreck-yards in far orbit, the dead places of ships that came to trade honestly, and fell prey to trickery.

These are lawless places, and have usually become so because the original settlers competed too hard when there was too little resource material. Those worlds which survived holocaust did so because of uneasy and bloody alliances between clan families. Pirates and mercenaries were hired for protection and assassination purposes. Anarchic worlds will trade readily in narcotics, slaves, firearms and exotica, and the price will be good... if you get a price at all. These worlds are almost always supplying invisible Masters, usually elite trader/combateers who have turned to crime as the most profitable way of life. Such form loose federations, and trade on the black market extensively throughout the galaxies.

These worlds pay highly for goods they cannot produce themselves, because they know that traders avoid them. Their own products need specialized, illegal outlets: weaponry, narcotics, eavesdropping devices... if it's covert, then anarchic worlds are producing it. Trade in these items and you will get rich quick, or dead quick, or at least become a "Fugitive".




...from a certain game that was released in 1984.

The weird thing is this solution is probably easier to implement and works for more people. I just dont get FD...

 

[Sandmann]

Was just in game then... dropped into several USS's. Saw two dangerous ships (a gunship and an asp) that were no problem.. and about 8 novice & mostly harmless ships... eagles and sideys and a viper... which I didn't even bother changing pips or using the throttle for. BTW I'm in a mid-range python with no engineered mods and rated expert in combat (thought I was competent.. I was wrong).

Yawn fest.

 

[Viking84]

I'd have to agree with you about the rank based AI, I'm Elite & don't really want to have to deal with that level of attention at any moment, at my level it somewhat locks me out of the smaller ships. But when I ranked up (I reached Elite in 1.3 I think) I had to go & find high ranking NPCs.

Reading your Sig you are Competent, so ironically you're probably seeing the kind of NPCs I'd be happier to see, and I'm getting yours

Oddly, pre-nerf I was hounded by Elite FDL's and Anacondas, most probably due to my Elite Trade Rank. And I thought that was quite fun despite being entirely unrealistic given what I was doing at the time (flying my 4 modular terminals out to Farseer to hand in some exploration data). I just want people to have the choice in the game, to be able to avoid bad neighbourhoods, and stick to the good ones if they want to remain safe I mean if you wanted to get from A-B with a backpack full of credits in Rio you wouldn't just draw a straight line and start walking through every favela between you and your destination and expect to get out untouched. That you can do it in Elite is a bit... troubling... I agree 100% with sleutelbos:

The weird thing is this solution is probably easier to implement and works for more people. I just dont get FD...

 

[Riverside]

Oddly, pre-nerf I was hounded by Elite FDL's and Anacondas, most probably due to my Elite Trade Rank. And I thought that was quite fun despite being entirely unrealistic given what I was doing at the time (flying my 4 modular terminals out to Farseer to hand in some exploration data). I just want people to have the choice in the game, to be able to avoid bad neighbourhoods, and stick to the good ones if they want to remain safe I mean if you wanted to get from A-B with a backpack full of credits in Rio you wouldn't just draw a straight line and start walking through every favela between you and your destination and expect to get out untouched. That you can do it in Elite is a bit... troubling... I agree 100% with sleutelbos:

Yeah there doesn't seem to be much of the community that it works for, but if it stays your solution is just to rank up or seek them out if you choose. I wouldn't want to come up against you in space but it sounds like winging up together could be beneficial both ways

Have you tried out the Haz Res yet? I'd be interested to know if it works for you now.

 

[Kaocraft]

We've gone from numerous threads detailing issues with AI being far too challenging for the majority, to numerous threads from the competitive souls out there claiming it's now been lobotomized (usually based on anecdotal 1-time evidence in RES sites, but I digress).

So, listen:
We can *all* enjoy this game at the same time, regardless of what each of us may want from it.

Nobody needs to, nor should, be excluded - whether they want to be able to just enjoy the combat, or want the combat to be as thrilling and difficult as playing Ultra Nightmare mode in Doom. (I think you're crazy, really, but that is me and my own view and it's perfectly fine if you enjoy yourself that way! So long as it doesn't affect me.)

Frontier is moving back in that direction - that's what this change in 2.1.0.3 is about.

It's safe to assume there will be ways you can reliably find a higher level challenge if that is what you want. Thargoids, "Winter is coming", possible future changes to Powerplay, you name it.

edit: And, I think nobody has anything against harder AI existing in certain locations such as Hazardous Extraction Sites, so long as the "random encounters" (e.g. Pirates or updated-mission attackers) are kept at this new "fair game" level.

In meantime, can we put down the pitchforks and be a whole community?

Additionally in that meantime, let's discuss many ways you *can* make the game harder if you so choose, right now:
- Set your own rules about what happens if you die, see this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...le-For-those-who-want-some-risk-in-their-game!
- Stick to ships that aren't Anaconda-tier
- Intentially limit yourself to sub-par equipment
- Fly FA-off *all* the time (and if you do already, great!)
- Don't RES farm; instead, go wander into a combat zone
- Stick a cargo rack in and stuff it full of gold, then head to a compromised nav beacon
- Join Powerplay (whether it's flawed or not, it WILL give you more & challenging attackers)
- Exclusively look for & attack NPC wings
- Play as a Criminal

And I'll be happy to add any other bright ideas that may pop up in the thread!

TL/DR:
Use the tools in *your* hands to make Elite more Dangerous for yourself, instead of demanding the Fdev wrecking ball!

Wow.




Um, - I disagree.

 

[Riverside]

Wow.




Um, - I disagree.

If you don't mind telling, what's your Combat Rank. Maybe you are having the same issue as Sandmann & Viking84 (just above)?

 

[CaptainKremmen]

We've gone from numerous threads detailing issues with AI being far too challenging for the majority, to numerous threads from the competitive souls out there claiming it's now been lobotomized (usually based on anecdotal 1-time evidence in RES sites, but I digress).

So, listen:
We can *all* enjoy this game at the same time, regardless of what each of us may want from it.

Nobody needs to, nor should, be excluded - whether they want to be able to just enjoy the combat, or want the combat to be as thrilling and difficult as playing Ultra Nightmare mode in Doom. (I think you're crazy, really, but that is me and my own view and it's perfectly fine if you enjoy yourself that way! So long as it doesn't affect me.)

Frontier is moving back in that direction - that's what this change in 2.1.0.3 is about.

It's safe to assume there will be ways you can reliably find a higher level challenge if that is what you want. Thargoids, "Winter is coming", possible future changes to Powerplay, you name it.

edit: And, I think nobody has anything against harder AI existing in certain locations such as Hazardous Extraction Sites, so long as the "random encounters" (e.g. Pirates or updated-mission attackers) are kept at this new "fair game" level.

In meantime, can we put down the pitchforks and be a whole community?

Additionally in that meantime, let's discuss many ways you *can* make the game harder if you so choose, right now:
- Set your own rules about what happens if you die, see this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...le-For-those-who-want-some-risk-in-their-game!
- Stick to ships that aren't Anaconda-tier
- Intentially limit yourself to sub-par equipment
- Fly FA-off *all* the time (and if you do already, great!)
- Don't RES farm; instead, go wander into a combat zone
- Stick a cargo rack in and stuff it full of gold, then head to a compromised nav beacon
- Join Powerplay (whether it's flawed or not, it WILL give you more & challenging attackers)
- Exclusively look for & attack NPC wings
- Play as a Criminal

And I'll be happy to add any other bright ideas that may pop up in the thread!

TL/DR:
Use the tools in *your* hands to make Elite more Dangerous for yourself, instead of demanding the Fdev wrecking ball!

I'm not asking for anyone at FD to swing a wrecking ball.


What I've been asking for, since December 2014 is for:


- A Galaxy with SAFE places, MILDLY RISKY places and DANGEROUS places.

- Which can actually be clearly seen by players using the Galaxy Map.

- And which has credit reward implications naturally built in.

- So they can take control of their own risk/reward gameplay!



What we have now is:

- A SYSTEM SECURITY level hidden in a clunky System Map that takes 7-10 seconds to load, per system

- No on-screen indication of SYSTEM SECURITY whatsoever, but we all get to see we're in Blue Left Hand HIP 190340 space.

- No view of System Security in the Galaxy Map, but we all get to see who is having a damn ELECTION within 500 light years of us.

- Hostile ships spawned just for us, for our personal rating, which is both monotonous (Elite FAS/Elite FdL/Elite Python/Elite FGS) and blatantly fake (the universe suddenly moulds itself around US).

- No obvious tie-in to WHAT we are doing, WHERE we are doing it, and WHO we have crossed in the past... so it all becomes a bland blur of hostile, homogeneous, rank-locked NPCs.

- Deliberate dialling back of NPC capability, to act as a band-aid to all the above shortcomings.


18 months I've been eagerly waiting for FD to bring "SECURITY LEVEL" Front And Centre as we navigate the Elite Galaxy. 18 months of hoping that someone from the development or customer liaison teams would at least post there, once, saying they'd actually read it.

Not a sausage.


And now we're back at square one, with a chunk of the player population perpetually unhappy, FD vainly trying to tailor-make NPC "challenges" to commanders by progressively more bizarre means, NPCs no longer flying to their potential - any by that, I mean, the potential to make the galaxy come alive and feel different from place to place.


"Oh, no, you don't want to go there. The locals will eat you alive. Better gear up before going there!". Said nobody in Elite, EVER.

"You'd better stick to High Security systems for now. Sure, the profits are lower, but so is the risk". Said nobody in Elite, EVER.



Please, FD. Put it on the Galaxy Map.


And then switch most (not all) of your NPC fine-tuning to work based on WHERE the player is... as opposed to the grind-o-matic combat rank in the player database records.

 

[Faybs]

"Oh, no, you don't want to go there. The locals will eat you alive. Better gear up before going there!". Said nobody in Elite, EVER.

"You'd better stick to High Security systems for now. Sure, the profits are lower, but so is the risk". Said nobody in Elite, EVER.



Please, FD. Put it on the Galaxy Map.

Won't make any difference. People are already taking missions based purely on payout, completely ignoring the bright red warning that the mission will attract baddies that are over their level, and complaining that the AI is too hard. With this people would just go to where the profits are, ignore the warnings on the HUD and galaxy map, and complain that the AI is too hard.

 

[V'larr]

...and, what's more, there is a well known precedent for this...from a certain game that was released in 1984.

Interesting stuff. I'm still on the fence about it but I'm definitely starting to lean towards it....

Wow.
Um, - I disagree.

That's leaving little for me to discuss. [big grin]

I'm not asking for anyone at FD to swing a wrecking ball.
What I've been asking for, since December 2014 is for:
- A Galaxy with SAFE places, MILDLY RISKY places and DANGEROUS places.
- Which can actually be clearly seen by players using the Galaxy Map.
- And which has credit reward implications naturally built in.
- So they can take control of their own risk/reward gameplay!
What we have now is:
- A SYSTEM SECURITY level hidden in a clunky System Map that takes 7-10 seconds to load, per system
- No on-screen indication of SYSTEM SECURITY whatsoever, but we all get to see we're in Blue Left Hand HIP 190340 space.
- No view of System Security in the Galaxy Map, but we all get to see who is having a damn ELECTION within 500 light years of us.
- Hostile ships spawned just for us, for our personal rating, which is both monotonous (Elite FAS/Elite FdL/Elite Python/Elite FGS) and blatantly fake (the universe suddenly moulds itself around US).
- No obvious tie-in to WHAT we are doing, WHERE we are doing it, and WHO we have crossed in the past... so it all becomes a bland blur of hostile, homogeneous, rank-locked NPCs.
- Deliberate dialling back of NPC capability, to act as a band-aid to all the above shortcomings.
18 months I've been eagerly waiting for FD to bring "SECURITY LEVEL" Front And Centre as we navigate the Elite Galaxy. 18 months of hoping that someone from the development or customer liaison teams would at least post there, once, saying they'd actually read it.
Not a sausage.
And now we're back at square one, with a chunk of the player population perpetually unhappy, FD vainly trying to tailor-make NPC "challenges" to commanders by progressively more bizarre means, NPCs no longer flying to their potential - any by that, I mean, the potential to make the galaxy come alive and feel different from place to place.
"Oh, no, you don't want to go there. The locals will eat you alive. Better gear up before going there!". Said nobody in Elite, EVER.
"You'd better stick to High Security systems for now. Sure, the profits are lower, but so is the risk". Said nobody in Elite, EVER.
Please, FD. Put it on the Galaxy Map.
And then switch most (not all) of your NPC fine-tuning to work based on WHERE the player is... as opposed to the grind-o-matic combat rank in the player database records.

I concur that the UI has plenty of room to improve...much left to be desired, whichever way you put it, the meaning is the same. I would like that kind of info to be more readily visible somewhere on the screen, barring System Map loading times being reduced to a millisecond (unlikely).

A small bit of devil's advocacy: with the new method of NPC spawning, we now have a tangible effect on the galaxy around us! (But, really, I get your point.) I like having the "Firefly" feel of being able to roam wherever we please, too.
I'm just very leery of anything that makes Elite start resembling EVE online. Maybe it's not such a bad thing, but I really do not want to play EVE online. I want to play this.

I could get used to your suggestions, though, assuming the AI is kept at this comfy Jackie Chan level of challenge (with further options for higher difficulty expanded upon without affecting the base majority).

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Won't make any difference. People are already taking missions based purely on payout, completely ignoring the bright red warning that the mission will attract baddies that are over their level, and complaining that the AI is too hard. With this people would just go to where the profits are, ignore the warnings on the HUD and galaxy map, and complain that the AI is too hard.

It's not all bad.
I think it'd be perfectly reasonable - assuming there's an appropriate tutorial that explains all these things to players who don't know yet - to address such complaints with the answer of "This information is readily available to you and it's a risk you must account for yourself."

Which assumes that NPC pirates and other AI outside of combat behave in sensible and predictable ways, but I think we're not there yet.