All Weapon Stats in Actual Values Test Results (Stage 1 – Shield DPS)

Run a symmetric setup with both weapons (2x beams or 2x cannons for example), then halve each damage/power or dpe setting, then add the two disparate halve to give a total for a hybrid weapon setup (like a beam and a cannon).

Note the time at WEP depletion - noting the differences between beam and cannon should show you which weapon will actually 'drain' the WEP capacitor first (thereby switching to the lower power recharge-only damage regime).
(Just using beam and cannon here as an example).

I think you're oversimplifying things when it comes to disparate weapon setups. I've put a lot of thought into trying to calculate more complex weapon setups and it's really tricky to do.

When you have a full WEP cap, there's no problem. The problem comes once the WEP cap is drained.

This is partly due to a lack of knowledge of the mechanics behind the scenes and partly because we only have averaged ("per unit of time") figures for the weapons, not "per shot". If we had "per shot" figures (i.e. someone counted precisely how many pulse laser shots it took to drain the cap) then we could get closer, but that's a HELL of a lot of counting... and it still doesn't answer many important details of mechanics of drained-cap firing.

If you're running two weapons of the same type, you know how much energy per second they're using, you know how much damage per energy they're using, and you can multiply up the amount of energy available from the weapon system for a given interval. Calculating the theoretical damage for that total available power at that point is relatively simple as you just divide it down.

Even when the capacitor is drained, because the two weapons are the same you can assume that at least ONE of them will be taking the available energy, and it's just a pool of energy at the end of the day so the same maths works.

Now let's say you've got different weapons - one pulse laser and one beam laser. Whilst there's capacitor power to run both, it's an easy win to calculate what's going on as we know how much damage they do per-second.

Unfortunately, once the cap is drained, you need to know lots of things that we really can't establish in order to work out what will happen because you can't ignore the fact that one of the weapons does different damage levels to the other one - so you have to know which one will actually fire at any given point - the duty cycle (as a ratio) for the two weapons.

To know what that duty cycle is you have to know stuff that I don't think we can work out.

What's the charging interval for the capacitor? Seconds? Milliseconds? What's the step charge per interval? What's the minimum cap charge level for a beam laser to turn on and fire a single "pulse"? How long does a single beam-laser "pulse" at drained-capacitor-level last (i.e. how much damage does it do)? Presumably the pulse laser might trigger at a lower level, stealing all the power and the beam laser might never turn on.

You basically have to build a complete firing simulator. And to build that you'd need FDev input. With the figures, it's not tricky. Without them, it's nigh-on impossible.

In my opinion anyway.

I'm happy to be convinced otherwise :)
 
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Sort of reluctant to ask, since I am fairly sure I know the answer, but how do you feel about Fragment Cannons? Besides having to get close.

Muzzle velocity and spread are both horrendous on fragment cannon, and damage is mediocre vs. shields. That 150m test range is probably the extent of it's effective range...against smaller ships it's even less.

If you are in a ship that can get and stay very close, they aren't terrible (hull damage is very good and subsystem damage even better), but overall they are far too specialized for me to want to mount one on most ships. I'd probably consider using a beam laser/fragment cannon vulture, but I'd likely find a dual pulse laser setup more effective most of the time.
 
I think you're oversimplifying things when it comes to disparate weapon setups. I've put a lot of thought into trying to calculate more complex weapon setups and it's really tricky to do.

When you have a full WEP cap, there's no problem. The problem comes once the WEP cap is drained.

This is partly due to a lack of knowledge of the mechanics behind the scenes and partly because we only have averaged ("per unit of time") figures for the weapons, not "per shot". If we had "per shot" figures (i.e. someone counted precisely how many pulse laser shots it took to drain the cap) then we could get closer, but that's a HELL of a lot of counting... and it still doesn't answer many important details of mechanics of drained-cap firing.

If you're running two weapons of the same type, you know how much energy per second they're using, you know how much damage per energy they're using, and you can multiply up the amount of energy available from the weapon system for a given interval. Calculating the theoretical damage for that total available power at that point is relatively simple as you just divide it down.

Even when the capacitor is drained, because the two weapons are the same you can assume that at least ONE of them will be taking the available energy, and it's just a pool of energy at the end of the day so the same maths works.

Now let's say you've got different weapons - one pulse laser and one beam laser. Whilst there's capacitor power to run both, it's an easy win to calculate what's going on as we know how much damage they do per-second.

Unfortunately, once the cap is drained, you need to know lots of things that we really can't establish in order to work out what will happen because you can't ignore the fact that one of the weapons does different damage levels to the other one - so you have to know which one will actually fire at any given point - the duty cycle (as a ratio) for the two weapons.

To know what that duty cycle is you have to know stuff that I don't think we can work out.

What's the charging interval for the capacitor? Seconds? Milliseconds? What's the step charge per interval? What's the minimum cap charge level for a beam laser to turn on and fire a single "pulse"? How long does a single beam-laser "pulse" at drained-capacitor-level last (i.e. how much damage does it do)? Presumably the pulse laser might trigger at a lower level, stealing all the power and the beam laser might never turn on.

You basically have to build a complete firing simulator. And to build that you'd need FDev input. With the figures, it's not tricky. Without them, it's nigh-on impossible.

In my opinion anyway.

I'm happy to be convinced otherwise :)

Good thoughts - and I agree. I was simplifying it somewhat. We will have to, in order to rank 'relative effectiveness'.
You're right in that if there is any kind of hidden or not-easily-measured variable, we're buggered. Like the range falloff, we would have to test independently of that variable.


However, I think the actual mechanics of the capacitor/weapon draining etc would be very simple.

Simple means there's more horsepower available for the 3D scene setup work before hand-off to the 3D card.
Simple means its easier to tweak as well.

I would be amazed if there is more to it than;
Damage vs shield
Damage vs hull
Falloff due to range (negated by using same range for all tests, excepting the poor frag cannon), and could be tested independently (a lot of time)
Energy cap use per shot (is energy available? as I think WEP is charging independently of weapon firing rate tickers)
Heat value per shot (could be a limiting factor - do some weapons over heat while firing slowly on a drained WEP capacitor? If not, good, ignore)

All engine setups like ED, SC etc will all have a 'ticker' - when each tick comes around, certain things will have to be done (like applying damage, checking if a weapon is still on target, replenishing the WEP capacitor)
Therefore beam weapons must have a discrete firing rate - they look like a continuous beam, but that is only the visual effect. Its effectively a hit-scan weapon like the pulses and bursts, but a beam will check its still on target (firing rate) before the engine allows damage to be applied to a shield/hull. You can apply an extrapolated beam firing rate by looking at the pulse->burst->beam progression (I don't have the number but a simple progression is likely, in keeping with the keeping it simple strategy). FD can also vary this actual ticker-based refire rate without actually making it visible to us too; possibly an attractive option for balancing...

I think the drained WEP cap mechanics are simple first come-first-served basis;
My Python uses 2x C2G med Beam lasers and 3x C3G large Pulse Lasers
When my WEP runs dry (not long), the beams continue 'burst firing' but the pulses never fire again.

It just so happen that the beams reach their "I can fire" energy/MJ first, and fire first. There's no power going to the pulses - they don't 'slowly gain enough energy to fire'.
Thus, I don't think each weapon draws independently (or I would see my pulses fire occasinally, and they don't, ever.)

So the fire rate ticker comes around, finds there's not enough energy to fire a pulse, and moves to the next weapon. If enough, fire the beam.
If I switched to a 2pulse, 1 beam setup (and dropped the med lasers), I bet the pulses would cycle slowly (possibly even just one pulse), and beam would b left dry. Need to test that.

Once we understand the behaviour, we can devise simplified tests.
SLB and PK's work goes a long way towards that, (props to them both BTW)

I would also be surprised if FD didn't have a simple Excel sheet with graphs such as Starlightbreaker's.
 
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Timing on pulling the trigger is important too. If I run one beam and one pulse I can get to a state where the pulse will fire at charging rate but the beam will not, but also vice versa that the beam will intermittently fire but the pulse will not.

Trying to determine the internal timings and the minimum energy to trigger a beam pulse is virtually impossible without intimate details of the code.

I think we're nearly as far as we can go with it.
 
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I noticed somebody asking about frags in this thread and as one of the very few that consistently ran them here's my view

cons
- terrible spread
- terrible range
- relatively high power requirement for projectile
- quite possibly the worst turret available

pros
- highest burst of a projectile (not counting rails or missiles here) by a considerable margin
- best burst possible per capacitor energy vs shields
- extreme hull/module shredding up close

What you end up with from those numbers is a weapon that has to fit a certain playstyle, you need to be comfortable jousting or getting very close to your target. You also need to be comfortable carrying weapons around with extremely limited ammo and small windows of opportunity. This basically means you need to be flying a larger ship, as smaller ships don't have the spare weaponry slots to carry weapons you may or may not use. You'd be better off with something else, your ship also needs to be able to fight effectively versus the smaller targets with the remaining weapons.

This really means the ships that can use them effectively at the moment IMO are the FDL, Python, Asp and possibly the vulture if you are comfortable using 1 C3 beam/burst as your primary weapon. I consistently ran two C2 frags before the python nerf to get through shield cells, and I upgraded them to C3's post nerf because I enjoyed using them so much. I fit them because the only targets likely to give me trouble would be large, and my playstyle was extremely aggressive with lots of directional thruster use.
 
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The biggest problem of Fragment Cannons for me is the ammo count. With its fast burst rate, you will run out of ammo faster than rail guns or missiles if you keep firing. I am pretty okay with its spread and range. If the ammo count can be like cannon in 100 range (but really will only feel like 30 because you burst 3 at once), it would be much much more useful and much more popular.
 
The biggest problem of Fragment Cannons for me is the ammo count. With its fast burst rate, you will run out of ammo faster than rail guns or missiles if you keep firing. I am pretty okay with its spread and range. If the ammo count can be like cannon in 100 range (but really will only feel like 30 because you burst 3 at once), it would be much much more useful and much more popular.

Yeah this was what I meant really, you only use them against very specific targets so most of the time they are just the "big guns" you only get out for one serious fight, like missiles really (but more useful)
 
I think the drained WEP cap mechanics are simple first come-first-served basis;
My Python uses 2x C2G med Beam lasers and 3x C3G large Pulse Lasers
When my WEP runs dry (not long), the beams continue 'burst firing' but the pulses never fire again.

It just so happen that the beams reach their "I can fire" energy/MJ first, and fire first. There's no power going to the pulses - they don't 'slowly gain enough energy to fire'.
Thus, I don't think each weapon draws independently (or I would see my pulses fire occasinally, and they don't, ever.)
Good discussions reps to both of you.

First come first served makes sense to me, and each weapon has their minimum requirement of WEP energy to fire, even beams.

For the example of 3 C3 Pulse + 2 C2 Beam, I think the 3 C3 Pulse couldn't fire because their combined minimum requirement of WEP energy is higher than 2 C2 beams combined. And they got combined only because you put them into the same fire group so your fire button triggers all of them simultaneously. If they were in different fire groups and you started fire them in separate triggers, the combined minimum requirement would be different, then you may see them fire.

The minimum WEP requirement for each weapon could possibly be tested using a drained WEP and small distributor (for better accuracy), then time the interval between start charging (with fire button pressing) and the first shot fires. The distributor recharge rate * time will be the minimum requirement. With that data, we may be able to calculate in different weapon combinations, which weapon gets the priority to fire when WEP drained.
 
Good stuff. I planned to do it but had no one to test the guns on.
Do you plan to do something like this for hull damage?
 
Good stuff. I planned to do it but had no one to test the guns on.
Do you plan to do something like this for hull damage?
Cmdr Pale Night and I have already done tons and tons of testing on hulls (much more than the time spent on shields) and we are still trying to decipher the data. It's really complicated. When we fully understand them (including how to present them) I will post them out.
 
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Regarding using different weapons, you can have them on different triggers/buttons/keys and just use the one with the better DPE once you run out of WEP capacitor. In this case, the calculation for the damage should come down to using both weapons while you have WEP capacitor, use only the highest DPE weapon when not.

For the Vulture Beam+Pulse setup, its use both Beam+Pulse until run out WEP cap, then just use Pulse. There is a slight issue regarding the modelling - a single Pulse allows the WEP capacitor to fill up (slowly). In game you can just use the Beam now and again to consume the extra energy. Modelling this as a line would involve taking a percentage of the DPS of the Beam as a representation of the uptime it has (and adding this to the DPS of the Pulse). It would be accurate over time, at least.
 
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Cmdr Pale Night and I have already done tons and tons of testing on hulls (much more than the time spent on shields) and we are still trying to decipher the data. It's really complicated. When we fully understand them (including how to present them) I will post them out.

Out of interest, have you done both direct hull damage tests and subsystem damage tests? I want to see if there are weapons that are better at one but worse at the other when compared to other weapons (so Pulse vs. Beam, for example; is Pulse better at subsystem damage but worse at hull damage?).
 
Out of interest, have you done both direct hull damage tests and subsystem damage tests? I want to see if there are weapons that are better at one but worse at the other when compared to other weapons (so Pulse vs. Beam, for example; is Pulse better at subsystem damage but worse at hull damage?).
Nope, we specifically only tested hull damage so far. We tried to avoid any sub-system damage because when you hit sub-system, you will only make a fraction of normal damage to hull. And when the sub-system you targeted become 0%, it will continue to absorb damage and the hull % won't change.

Testing sub-system damage, as you can imagine, will be more complicated, than the already difficult hull damage test. Let alone you may risk yourself being killed by hitting Power Plants :)
 
The missile damage is so sad - you would probably be better off smashing your cockpit window and shooting at the enemy's shields with an assault rifle.
 
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