Allow new nVIDIA DLSS in Q4

[ebbrell]

as part of Q4 the which is going to include some new gorgeous looking stuff, can you allow or enable elements of the RTX technology from nVIDIA

i dont mean the full ray traciing part as this may reduce the FPS too much.

but can you enable the DLSS "Deep Learning Super Sampling" function pls. this means if people have this option and a new 2070, 2080 or 2080ti they can have improved FPS with amazing looking graphics. Will this also improve the quality available to VR headset also... I guess it will

I dont know, it may also give you more options when coding the new look of ice on planets, if you are battling with performance will this give you as a dev team the few extra FPS you need to make the good stuff run well.

 

[Misty_Dark]

as part of Q4 the which is going to include some new gorgeous looking stuff, can you allow or enable elements of the RTX technology from nVIDIA

i dont mean the full ray traciing part as this may reduce the FPS too much.

but can you enable the DLSS "Deep Learning Super Sampling" function pls. this means if people have this option and a new 2070, 2080 or 2080ti they can have improved FPS with amazing looking graphics. Will this also improve the quality available to VR headset also... I guess it will

I dont know, it may also give you more options when coding the new look of ice on planets, if you are battling with performance will this give you as a dev team the few extra FPS you need to make the good stuff run well.

Well, how many of current Users have this class of GPU today? So that means, Titan X, Titan Xp, 1080 Ti, 1080 and 1070

1070 = 3.6% (970 3.14%)
1070 TI = 0.6% (no 970 TI, but lets add 970M here instead.... 0.5%)
1080 = 2.3% (980 0.6%)
1080 TI = 1.2% (980 TI 0.5%)
Titan not listed, so these are less than 0.15% each... (no titans listed...)

So we are already looking at ~7.7% users that have current gen card in this category (based on name) and those having the older generation card is interesting.... high end (980 and above) seems to have upgraded, but lower end (970) keep their card. Where did all the old high end cards go?


1070 MSRP $379
1070 TI MRSRP $449
2070 MSRP is $499 (and FE priced at $599)


1080 MSRP $549
2080 MSRP $699 (and FE priced at $799)

1080 TI MSRP $699
2080 TI MSRP $999 (and FE priced at $1199)

Titanx MSRP $1200
Titan Xp MSRP $1200

So including 1070 is a bit missleading when you look at the prices... as the match based on price is more like this:


itan X/Titan Xp successor is the 2080 TI

1080 TI successor is the 2080

1080 successor is the 2070
(we can include 1070 TI here too, as that performance wise is close to 1080)

We are straying a bit here, but there is no denying that these new cards launches at a higher price than previous generation, making direct comparisons harder based on the xx70, xx80, naming alone... But this price bump will most likely affect the adoption rate in a negative way.


So I doubt Elite Dangerous players have even that level of high end graphics cards, because that is not needed. So I think the penetration is even lower....
Now remember when FDEv cut out support for DirectX 10 and 32 bit windows, that roughly affected 2.5% of the player base.

So with 1070 we have ~7.7%
If we exclude 1070 and keep the TI), that drops to ~4.1


So we are looking at ~4% now. that is not that much higher than the cutoff of old tech at 2.5%


So what is my point here? There will be a very limited amount of users getting these new RTX cards, and based on their price, we now leaving the average gamer behind , as the entry level RTX card, the 2070, is priced alot higher than the previous generation xx70 card was.




So is it worth it for FDev to spend time on this technology at this time? I doubt it, as the number of users that can take advantage of that change is very limited. And also 10-series card have been out for a while now, RTX are not going to have these numbers by the end of the year... in 2 years time who knows, but if the current numbers are anything to go by, we are only talking about ~5% users... unless we get RTX 2060, RTX 2050... and by then we might have the RTX 30 series cards instead...


So how much time should FDev spend on something that less than 8%, if we include 1070, of players can take advantage of, and if it is less than 5% of users? 2.5%?
New things are fun, but it should make sense to adopt it and players need to spend the money on the new tech, etc, etc.

 

[mmorselli]

So is it worth it for FDev to spend time on this technology at this time? I doubt it, as the number of users that can take advantage of that change is very limited.

This consideration is applicable to every other game in the world. So, no game will implement DLSS in the future?


DLSS could be the solution to the problem of Elite Dangerour's poor VR antialiasing performance. VR users will buy the new nVidia cards IF Frontier will support these.

The usage percentage of a video card depends on the game you are playing, you can't use the global figure, among the players there is who plays Terraria or Don't Starve, and there is who plays Elite Dangerous

 

[Misty_Dark]

This consideration is applicable to every other game in the world. So, no game will implement DLSS in the future?


DLSS could be the solution to the problem of Elite Dangerour's poor VR antialiasing performance. VR users will buy the new nVidia cards IF Frontier will support these.

The usage percentage of a video card depends on the game you are playing, you can't use the global figure, among the players there is who plays Terraria or Don't Starve, and there is who plays Elite Dangerous

Of course I can, it is an INDICATION. but do you know something else? FDev knows even better what kind of GPUs players are using...


So how many players do have a VR setup? 1%? 5%? 10% 20%? Well we can once again get the indication from Steams hardware survey....
Oculus Rift, 0.3%
HTC Vive, 0.29%
Windows Mixed Reality 0.04 %
HTC Vive Pro 0.01%
Oculus Rift DK2 0.01%

So we are looking at something like 0.65% users out of ~7.7%, that is not a huge penetration for VR. That is even a weaker argument as we are now down to a subset of a subset of users here...

 

[Cmd. Battle Wolf]

Of course I can, it is an INDICATION. but do you know something else? FDev knows even better what kind of GPUs players are using...


So how many players do have a VR setup? 1%? 5%? 10% 20%? Well we can once again get the indication from Steams hardware survey....
Oculus Rift, 0.3%
HTC Vive, 0.29%
Windows Mixed Reality 0.04 %
HTC Vive Pro 0.01%
Oculus Rift DK2 0.01%

So we are looking at something like 0.65% users out of ~7.7%, that is not a huge penetration for VR. That is even a weaker argument as we are now down to a subset of a subset of users here...

Misty_Dark, should I assume that you have no intention on getting a 20XX series of a VR headset?

Because if FDEV takes your explanation and agrees with it, they should't have even developed Elite Dangerous, they should have stayed with the old versions, like the 1984 version that runs on every existing computer...

 

[mmorselli]

Of course I can, it is an INDICATION. but do you know something else? FDev knows even better what kind of GPUs players are using...


So how many players do have a VR setup? 1%? 5%? 10% 20%? Well we can once again get the indication from Steams hardware survey....

I have to insist, you can't use the global data.

How many Beat Saber players own a VR headset?

100%, of course, Beat Saber is a VR game. In this case you can't use the global figure.

Elite is ALSO a VR game, so the percentage of users who use it in VR will certainly be much higher

Globally, the GTX 1080Ti is owned by 1.45% of the players. But if we examine the population of DCS or X-Plane 11 players, then there will be considerably more, because these games are high demanding, work great in VR, VR is even more demanding, and so on...

 

[Misty_Dark]

Misty_Dark, should I assume that you have no intention on getting a 20XX series of a VR headset?

Because if FDEV takes your explanation and agrees with it, they should't have even developed Elite Dangerous, they should have stayed with the old versions, like the 1984 version that runs on every existing computer...

Your strawman argument of not developing Elite Dangerous is rubbish, as they did actually have a pretty good indication of how popular it would be, you know, the crowdfunding part... so they did their part, your argument falls flat. So explain the buisiness reason for spending resources for a SELECT FEW players, instead spending that money improving the game for the vast majority?


Perhaps they scrapped the new Ice planets for DLSS? if that would be the case, do you think that would be well spent money for the majority of players?

 

[Misty_Dark]

I have to insist, you can't use the global data.

How many Beat Saber players own a VR headset?

100%, of course, Beat Saber is a VR game. In this case you can't use the global figure.

Elite is ALSO a VR game, so the percentage of users who use it in VR will certainly be much higher

Globally, the GTX 1080Ti is owned by 1.45% of the players. But if we examine the population of DCS or X-Plane 11 players, then there will be considerably more, because these games are high demanding, work great in VR, VR is even more demanding, and so on...

Why not? what else do you have to come with then? Please provide some stats then.
Show me some numbers. And where you got them from.

I want some better indications that DCS, Xplane, etc etc, players on AVERAGE is spending more money on their rigs. And VR, there so many more titles to play in VR that is not Elite, so why should Elite be more represented by VR users?


Where is your numbers? or are they just wishful thinking?

 

[ebbrell]

The DLSS needs to be included as an options in graphics setting with other AA types.

This will make rendered images better, while boosting fps

For those people with 2080 or 2080ti cards,they can utilise it.

Let's future proof the game to use the best AA available.

 

[mmorselli]

Where is your numbers? or are they just wishful thinking?

and where are your numbers? You are not a Frontier developer, you're not entitled to say that it is not worthwhile, without numbers

or we could use common sense, to understand that Elite Dangerous and LOL are different games, with different hardware requirements

 

[xondk]

Well, how many of current Users have this class of GPU today? So that means, Titan X, Titan Xp, 1080 Ti, 1080 and 1070

1070 = 3.6% (970 3.14%)
1070 TI = 0.6% (no 970 TI, but lets add 970M here instead.... 0.5%)
1080 = 2.3% (980 0.6%)
1080 TI = 1.2% (980 TI 0.5%)
Titan not listed, so these are less than 0.15% each... (no titans listed...)

So we are already looking at ~7.7% users that have current gen card in this category (based on name) and those having the older generation card is interesting.... high end (980 and above) seems to have upgraded, but lower end (970) keep their card. Where did all the old high end cards go?


1070 MSRP $379
1070 TI MRSRP $449
2070 MSRP is $499 (and FE priced at $599)


1080 MSRP $549
2080 MSRP $699 (and FE priced at $799)

1080 TI MSRP $699
2080 TI MSRP $999 (and FE priced at $1199)

Titanx MSRP $1200
Titan Xp MSRP $1200

So including 1070 is a bit missleading when you look at the prices... as the match based on price is more like this:


itan X/Titan Xp successor is the 2080 TI

1080 TI successor is the 2080

1080 successor is the 2070
(we can include 1070 TI here too, as that performance wise is close to 1080)

We are straying a bit here, but there is no denying that these new cards launches at a higher price than previous generation, making direct comparisons harder based on the xx70, xx80, naming alone... But this price bump will most likely affect the adoption rate in a negative way.


So I doubt Elite Dangerous players have even that level of high end graphics cards, because that is not needed. So I think the penetration is even lower....
Now remember when FDEv cut out support for DirectX 10 and 32 bit windows, that roughly affected 2.5% of the player base.

So with 1070 we have ~7.7%
If we exclude 1070 and keep the TI), that drops to ~4.1


So we are looking at ~4% now. that is not that much higher than the cutoff of old tech at 2.5%


So what is my point here? There will be a very limited amount of users getting these new RTX cards, and based on their price, we now leaving the average gamer behind , as the entry level RTX card, the 2070, is priced alot higher than the previous generation xx70 card was.




So is it worth it for FDev to spend time on this technology at this time? I doubt it, as the number of users that can take advantage of that change is very limited. And also 10-series card have been out for a while now, RTX are not going to have these numbers by the end of the year... in 2 years time who knows, but if the current numbers are anything to go by, we are only talking about ~5% users... unless we get RTX 2060, RTX 2050... and by then we might have the RTX 30 series cards instead...


So how much time should FDev spend on something that less than 8%, if we include 1070, of players can take advantage of, and if it is less than 5% of users? 2.5%?
New things are fun, but it should make sense to adopt it and players need to spend the money on the new tech, etc, etc.

If using steam stats, keep in mind that it counts ALL places it is installed, which isn't always relative.
Personally I'd love for them to add a way to filter per game, that would give a better idea.

 

[Misty_Dark]

and where are your numbers? You are not a Frontier developer, you're not entitled to say that it is not worthwhile, without numbers

or we could use common sense, to understand that Elite Dangerous and LOL are different games, with different hardware requirements

I do know that Elite dangerous is not a high demanding graphics game, so there is little reason to have a very powerful graphics card, but we know that players played Elite on very OLD hardware, as we got some figures from FDev when they announced the removal of removed the 32 bit client and old DirectX support. So the argument could be that Elite is played by many common player that is NOT having top of the line computers....

And do not forget, neither consoles do support this, and that is a sizeable player base too.

 

[Misty_Dark]

If using steam stats, keep in mind that it counts ALL places it is installed, which isn't always relative.
Personally I'd love for them to add a way to filter per game, that would give a better idea.

Of course, but I think it gives a rough estimation, as I believe most of Elite players are very casual players with standard computer, and not running high end gaming systems. As Elite is not requiring high end gaming system to play,

And based on the costs involved to get into VR, I also think that VR penetration among Elite players are low, but higher then the average STEAM penetration... And keep in mind that Elite do not support VR on consoles...

 

[mmorselli]

And based on the costs involved to get into VR, I also think that VR penetration among Elite players are low

As administrator of an Italian VR community, I can tell you that the majority of VR users owns Elite, it's one of the most popular games because it's one of the most beautiful VR game. Elite is the game that convinced me to change my GTX 980 for a GTX 1080Ti.

 

[Sidman]

As for me I still got a GTX 660 card, I was thinking about upgrading, but here is the main reason why people are less likely to upgrade. Though that have generation 4 and up computers the processors are fast enough to handle the anything above the Nvidia GTX 1080 and AMD equivalent cards. Those that have the Intel 1, 2, 3 generation, computers some of the higher levels of 2 and 3 generation is still barely at the edge of the gaming computer range are afraid of upgrading their cards because the computers are about 5 years old and you can get a new proccessor for the same price as the lower end of the new old generation 1060 1070 1080 bridge cards I like to call it. Until the price drops a lot in though bridge cards its easier to buy a new computer and cheaper if your computer is at least 5 years old, because would you want to upgrade to a 1000 series card now just to have to buy a new computer a year or two later. I don't think poeple generally put old cards into new computers even when they are built from parts.


This is the main reason I have not bought the 1080 GTX card is my computer is 5 years old. I can't really say munch about AMD or the AMD ATI video cards as I am strictly Intel and Nvidia. So unless there is a major shift in either the graphics cards dropping below proccessor price, its not likely going to have munch affect on games.
Current generation 6 proccessor cost USD $200.00+ rounded to nearest 100. The GTX series cost around $200.00 USD rounded to the nearest 100. So what is the better value the proccessor or the GPU?

 

[Captain Willard]

You buy the latest gaming hardware and want the software maker to cater to you? Good luck with that.

 

[Misty_Dark]

As administrator of an Italian VR community, I can tell you that the majority of VR users owns Elite, it's one of the most popular games because it's one of the most beautiful VR game. Elite is the game that convinced me to change my GTX 980 for a GTX 1080Ti.

So how many are in that community? 100? 1000? 10 000? Now how many Italian Elite players are there in total? To have some reference to how many have VR.



I do not doubt that many VR users have Elite, but on the big scale, how many Elite users have VR. Looking in a community dedicated to VR is only looking at a subset of users, those who have actually got the hardware. It is like asking group of users that is dedicated to the GTX 1080 TI, what GPU do you have? And what would the result be on what GPU is the most popular in a group dedicated to a specific GPU?

 

[Podnuts]

I thought the idea with DSS is they submit the game to Nvidia, then Nvidia come back with the code to enable it? Ray Tracing is a entirely different beast.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

I thought the idea with DSS is they submit the game to Nvidia, then Nvidia come back with the code to enable it? Ray Tracing is a entirely different beast.

To be more specific, they run it through their deep learning machine, devise an algorithm for the DLSS hardware in the card and push it down with driver update. Supposedly this is free of charge (now), but still devs would need to do some coding around to enable it. On cards that from the looks of it won't have high market penetration because they're not far from 1080Ti for obscenely more money. Source: GamersNexus.

 

[mmorselli]

So how many are in that community? 100? 1000? 10 000?

between 100 and 1000, but I think you know statistical sampling as a concept.

I do not doubt that many VR users have Elite, but on the big scale, how many Elite users have VR. Looking in a community dedicated to VR is only looking at a subset of users, those who have actually got the hardware.

you can't think a game just on the average user, I don't think the average user owns a HOTAS. Most users don't own a VR rig, right. So why Frontier choose to support VR in Elite Dangerous?