Allow the VR '2D screen' to be disabled?

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Y'all might want to chime in on this thread in the Alpha subforum:

Constructive VR commentary

TL;DR - The Virtual Flatscreen in VR when on foot is not well received, and VR-Headlook with normal controls rather than hand controllers (like what we have in cockpits just now) would be a far better fit. Rather than just venting steam and ranting about how bad I think Virtual Flatscreen is, I...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[[VR] zodd]

Y'all might want to chime in on this thread in the Alpha subforum:

Constructive VR commentary

TL;DR - The Virtual Flatscreen in VR when on foot is not well received, and VR-Headlook with normal controls rather than hand controllers (like what we have in cockpits just now) would be a far better fit. Rather than just venting steam and ranting about how bad I think Virtual Flatscreen is, I...

forums.frontier.co.uk

A bit heavy handed IMHO as we want to be gentle here. It could be that FD are on the cusp of deciding if VR is worth it. Positive reinforcement is the key.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

In light of what you said, I've edited the opening post now, taking out some of the negativity and opinion on virtual flatscreen, hopefully its more acceptable now...?

 

[VR Golgot]

The mere fact you HAVEN'T spotted anything obvious on foot in VR via the vanity cam that simply "doesn't work" kind of suggests there's no reason not to do "proper VR" (headlook). Had you said "aye Jay, the framerate tanked to 8FPS" or "it was pretty cool but you suddenly seen the ground isn't tesselated as it appears, its just a sprite mask" or whatever, implementing VR might have needed resources, but now?

Ah I see what you mean. Yeah there were no glaring new issues on that front. Smoke/dust sprites still rotate with your head, but nothing new. Performance is obviously very low ultimately, and for first person that can prove more of an issue, so there's that hill to climb. But no obvious changes to the tech that breaks VR, sure.

Agreed. It seems like a shorter path than what we expected. I dare say that FD has a plan in place but is being cautious. Might even be a surprise announcement, who knows.

It's a pity that ED is completely closed to outside mods, etc. So many keen and talented people out there who have adapted VR into non-VR games (i.e. Alien Isolation, GTAV, and the upcoming Halo VR project).

Yep, and I doubt they'll sanction more full-on modding any time soon. It's just kind of maddening that the native VR is there for a change, but we can't access it (whereas normally the first bit of modding magic would be to get it in there in the first place )

If FDev can be convinced to expose it, I suspect there are a lot of talented Cmdrs about & 3rd-party dev heads who could get an experience going. Just need to get that door open

 

[VR Golgot]

Y'all might want to chime in on this thread in the Alpha subforum:

Constructive VR commentary

TL;DR - The Virtual Flatscreen in VR when on foot is not well received, and VR-Headlook with normal controls rather than hand controllers (like what we have in cockpits just now) would be a far better fit. Rather than just venting steam and ranting about how bad I think Virtual Flatscreen is, I...

forums.frontier.co.uk

The problem is that I don't think these issues have changed:

• FDev's quotes suggest they're not budgeting or designing for VR Legs support at the moment. The focus is on 2D EDO.

• Classic controls + VR headlook alone, while attainable technically, don't meet the launch standards of other VR-ready titles on the market. Motion controller support is the overwhelming norm for character gameplay on PCVR. That would require more dev.

We're not going to change either of those facts on the ground at the 11th hour before launch.

So I think advocating for an 'unofficial' / unmarketed solution is the most viable route for now. Something which requires low dev, and doesn't have to hit marketable launch standards. (The 2D screen solution sits within that niche. Backdoor access to VR headlook stretches them a bit further on the 'unofficial' side, but it's also within their powers to enact. It would be fan service on a budget )

We can advocate for design solutions until we're blue in the face. But if FDev aren't budgeting for VR Legs, they're pretty unlikely to happen in the short term. And if those designs don't meet the standards for a marketed VR title, FDev are unlikely to undertake them at all as a silo project purely for fan service. They'll doubtless prefer to do a fuller job if/when they decide to take VR Legs on in earnest.

I think we have to accept that, if VR Legs come, they're not coming soon. So we need to figure out other solutions in the meantime.

 

[VR Golgot]

Got a rustic form of 'first person' going in the vanity cam

Source: https://youtu.be/vLc21LO75Gs


You can manoeuvre yourself into a kind of first person position. (For some reason the actual free cam doesn't seem to work on foot or in ship for me, which is a shame as that would be a better way to do it. Assuming it lets you get close to the character model. Possibly macros could be set up to get you to the same position every time?)

If you're very good at hip firing without a reticule (I'm not ) you could maybe actually play a bit like this. Especially with a few more key binds. I could only shoot, reload, work shields and throw grenades here, but changing weapon should be possible for example.

You still wouldn't be able to interact with any panels or pick up items etc, AFAIK. But it's fun to mess around with for now

 

[Arioch]

You can manoeuvre yourself into a kind of first person position. (For some reason the actual free cam doesn't seem to work on foot or in ship for me, which is a shame as that would be a better way to do it. Assuming it lets you get close to the character model. Possibly macros could be set up to get you to the same position every time?)

I also can’t get the freecam controls to work, though I’m not sure if that’s just a binding problem.

When you say you manoeuvre yourself, is that like doing a drop-cam and then running right up behind your virtual viewpoint? Doesn’t sound a million miles away from what some mods do in third-person games to make them first-person.

 

[[VR] zodd]

Got a rustic form of 'first person' going in the vanity cam

Source: https://youtu.be/vLc21LO75Gs


You can manoeuvre yourself into a kind of first person position. (For some reason the actual free cam doesn't seem to work on foot or in ship for me, which is a shame as that would be a better way to do it. Assuming it lets you get close to the character model. Possibly macros could be set up to get you to the same position every time?)

If you're very good at hip firing without a reticule (I'm not ) you could maybe actually play a bit like this. Especially with a few more key binds. I could only shoot, reload, work shields and throw grenades here, but changing weapon should be possible for example.

You still wouldn't be able to interact with any panels or pick up items etc, AFAIK. But it's fun to mess around with for now

@Obsidian Ant you have to showcase this! Very cool stuff

 

[VR Golgot]

I also can’t get the freecam controls to work, though I’m not sure if that’s just a binding problem.

When you say you manoeuvre yourself, is that like doing a drop-cam and then running right up behind your virtual viewpoint? Doesn’t sound a million miles away from what some mods do in third-person games to make them first-person.

I'm using the default bindings for Xbox controllers, and there are bindings in there for free cam. They just don't do anything, in ship or on foot. (I'll give them a try in flat view. They're either bugged, or turned off in VR).

By manoeuvre I mean I just moved across my room, reset my VR cam, moved back so I was closer to the avatar now, and then turned away from the av so we were facing the same way. Meant controls and collisions were mainly in sync. (You can see the av behind me in the station footage )

Right old faff really though, and not ideal for swapping back to the 2D screen for interactions etc.

 

[Arioch]

I'm using the default bindings for Xbox controllers, and there are bindings in there for free cam. They just don't do anything, in ship or on foot. (I'll give them a try in flat view. They're either bugged, or turned off in VR).

By manoeuvre I mean I just moved across my room, reset my VR cam, moved back so I was closer to the avatar now, and then turned away from the av so we were facing the same way. Meant controls and collisions were mainly in sync. (You can see the av behind me in the station footage )

Right old faff really though, and not ideal for swapping back to the 2D screen for interactions etc.

Right, I wasn’t missing something obvious then! I noticed your CMDR breathing down your neck - reminded me of the “spooky Watson” video from that Sherlock Holmes game

Time to find the spot in my room where I need to do the head-reset then

 

[[VR] zodd]

Just a thought, but do the input configurations work for motion controllers in steam? I.e can you define the left thumb stick on an index controller to be WASD?

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

The problem is that I don't think these issues have changed:

• FDev's quotes suggest they're not budgeting or designing for VR Legs support at the moment. The focus is on 2D EDO.
• Classic controls + VR headlook alone, while attainable technically, don't meet the launch standards of other VR-ready titles on the market. Motion controller support is the overwhelming norm for character gameplay on PCVR. That would require more dev.

We're not going to change either of those facts on the ground at the 11th hour before launch.

Yet again you've summoned the headlook + gamepad is now subpar spectre, and yet this very thread is founded on the notion of a willingness by both sides to overlook "the new norm"?

There is something I don't get, we are both campaigning for what I refer to as Level 2 VR for Odyssey, which is Headlook + normal controlers - sans hands, yet you often torpedo posts rallying for this request by citing hand controllers? You don't even frame it with a mitigation like "While FPS VR is normally associated with hand controllers, but Elite isn't a normal game, and there is a strong expression of support from the playerbase to forego hand controllers in Odyssey so it would be acceptable to the playerbase to get a supposedly sub par (sans hands) VR implementation." Every time you cite the new norm for VR, without such a mitigation as I've listed above, you lessen our chances of getting the very thing we are both asking for. It often feels like you are more intent on scoring points off other forum users by citing that trump card than you are on successfully campaigning for at the very least Level 2 VR.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Just a thought, but do the input configurations work for motion controllers in steam? I.e can you define the left thumb stick on an index controller to be WASD?

I do believe you can use the buttons and ministicks on the hand controllers as if they were just an Xbox style gamepad, however the accelerometer/gyro/sensor tracking movement remains inaccessible as far as I can tell.

 

[VR Golgot]

yet this very thread is founded on the notion of a willingness by both sides to overlook "the new norm"?

Not exactly. The thread acknowledges the market norm, and so suggests FDev do something prior to officially launching on the VR market. As they have with the 2D panel.

There is something I don't get, we are both campaigning for what I refer to as Level 2 VR for Odyssey, which is Headlook + normal controlers - sans hands, yet you often torpedo posts rallying for this request by citing hand controllers?

I'm just pointing out some issues with your pitch, as noted in that thread. You're discussing meaningful dev (teleportation mechanics etc) for example, as if those were likely occurrences in the near term. I just don't think they are, given everything that FDev have said on the matter. We're better off pitching for things which they do have the resources to act on right now.

Every time you cite the new norm for VR, without such a mitigation as I've listed above, you lessen our chances of getting the very thing we are both asking for.

That's not how these things work man. The market norm just is what it is, regardless of how we frame it, or how often it's mentioned on a forum.

A pitch that doesn't factor it in in some fashion is just more likely to be run into a brick wall is all ¯\(ツ)/¯

It often feels like you are more intent on scoring points off other forum users by citing that trump card than you are on successfully campaigning for at the very least Level 2 VR.

That's genuinely not my intent. I'm just trying to get everyone's energies focused on pushing for the most achievable outcomes possible in the short term. We may have more chance of success that way ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[VR Golgot]

I also can’t get the freecam controls to work, though I’m not sure if that’s just a binding problem.

Checked this and it works fine in classic 2D mode. Must be disabled in VR :/

 

[Arioch]

I’ve found using “Commander Right Profile” is the best vanity cam to use for my play space - a slight squat, reset the HMD position, engage the vanity cam and I move forward about 2m and turn around.

Perfectly positioned, I can look down and see my virtual feet leaving footprints in the snow (my litmus test for good VR ) - though sometimes my view clips inside the CMDR’s head, like when jumping.

I’ve just had a very atmospheric experience - running into the night on an ice world, the light from the overhead gas giant twinkling on the ground, the landscape just about visible as ghostly grey (very much like real night vision), the sound of my CMDR struggling to breathe after running like 20 yards (great sound though for the suit, very 2001-style).

Comfort wise - though I’m not a fan of smooth turning (I used flick turn before getting a roomscale setup) it’s still massively better than the SRV turret is in VR. I had a good run and jump around and didn’t feel any of the slight wheeerrpp moments I still occasionally get with the Scarab gun view.

 

[[VR] zodd]

I’ve found using “Commander Right Profile” is the best vanity cam to use for my play space - a slight squat, reset the HMD position, engage the vanity cam and I move forward about 2m and turn around.

Perfectly positioned, I can look down and see my virtual feet leaving footprints in the snow (my litmus test for good VR ) - though sometimes my view clips inside the CMDR’s head, like when jumping.

I’ve just had a very atmospheric experience - running into the night on an ice world, the light from the overhead gas giant twinkling on the ground, the landscape just about visible as ghostly grey (very much like real night vision), the sound of my CMDR struggling to breathe after running like 20 yards (great sound though for the suit, very 2001-style).

Comfort wise - though I’m not a fan of smooth turning (I used flick turn before getting a roomscale setup) it’s still massively better than the SRV turret is in VR. I had a good run and jump around and didn’t feel any of the slight wheeerrpp moments I still occasionally get with the Scarab gun view.

Absolutely amazing how we're all pushing the boundaries of VR in ED. Not only fun but puts the perspective on how much we love this game.

 

[Mack Winston]

Classic controls + VR headlook alone, while attainable technically, don't meet the launch standards of other VR-ready titles on the market. Motion controller support is the overwhelming norm for character gameplay on PCVR. That would require more dev.

They don't need to market it as a VR-ready title. It doesn't have to meet the "launch standards of VR-ready titles", just the standards requested in this thread (which isn't asking for much).

All we are asking for is that for hard core VR users, we can enable it, and they can call it "unsupported, you might throw up" or whatever.

That the external camera gives full VR shows that it's probably a dozen lines of code to make it a configurable option for those who are used to it in space flight and want it on foot too. Right now the lack of this probably means I (and most other VR users) won't use the on-foot part of the game much, if at all.

 

[VR Golgot]

All we are asking for is that for hard core VR users, we can enable it, and they can call it "unsupported, you might throw up" or whatever.

That’s fine, but I think the OP there should be clear that it’s asking for an off label / back door solution then. It’s currently very fuzzy on that front.

(Suggesting how it could be fire-walled from players who are expecting a quality product, or who suffer from nausea etc, would probably be a good idea too).

That the external camera gives full VR shows that it's probably a dozen lines of code to make it a configurable option for those who are used to it in space flight and want it on foot too.

Nah, these ‘it’s a flick of a switch' posts are frankly daft.

You realise that just adding headlook alone would signify a rough experience, far rougher than the current cockpit one? (With UI stuck to our faces, likely uncomfortably close, for example.)

And then there are the contingencies that FDev would have to deal with, even in a very low dev approach. Do they cull the avatar head to allow for optimal camera placement, but leave a headless avatar running around the multiplayer world? Or do they offset it awkwardly just in front of the avatar? (Hell, do they attach headlook to the avatar at all, given people keep asking for 'headlook just like the ship gameplay', where it isn’t )

There is always more than just a few lines of code involved. There’s other unseen dev, and the company’s broader agendas. If we ignore these things when canvassing FDev it’ll be no great surprise if they ignore us in turn.

 

[Mack Winston]

And then there are the contingencies that FDev would have to deal with, even in a very low dev approach. Do they cull the avatar head to allow for optimal camera placement, but leave a headless avatar running around the multiplayer world?

This is already a solved problem and it's been a solved problem since multicrew in ships.

We realise that it will be a "rough" VR experience, that's why we're asking "please make a simple non-supported version in the interim, through a config file", so those not looking for it don't accidentally wander into it, but those (like me) who have the heart and stomach of a concrete elephant can turn it on.

Derail Valley manages it after all, with a company of only 5 people (probably of which only two write code).