Sometimes it's not a case of defending or excusing cheating but more a case of understanding why someone might be motivated to do it. It's called empathy. As I have stated myself before now, I for one don't condone combat logging, but nor do I have sympathy for griefers/gankers who get combat logged on. Now, that is not defending or excusing combat logging but rather indicating that I can understand certain situations where the offender might do it, might feel compelled to do so. That is, if it's in response to repeated attacks and such, I can understand why someone might do it. Doesn't make it right (I for one would play in solo or private rather than put myself in such a position), but nor is any griefing or ganking beforehand. Of course, not all combat logging occurs in response to a griefing/ganking situation, and it's harder to have any empathy for the offender in those instances.
PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2
- Thread starter Rinzler o7o7o7
- Start date
Sometimes it's not a case of defending or excusing cheating but more a case of understanding why someone might be motivated to do it. It's called empathy. As I have stated myself before now, I for one don't condone combat logging, but nor do I have sympathy for griefers/gankers who get combat logged on. Now, that is not defending or excusing combat logging but rather indicating that I can understand certain situations where the offender might do it, might feel compelled to do so. That is, if it's in response to repeated attacks and such, I can understand why someone might do it. Doesn't make it right (I for one would play in solo or private rather than put myself in such a position), but nor is any griefing or ganking beforehand. Of course, not all combat logging occurs in response to a griefing/ganking situation, and it's harder to have any empathy for the offender in those instances.
Nobody in this thread is condoning clogging, they've said its low priority or even a trivial non-issue or part of a greater needed fix but nobody has actually condoned it.
The 5-1 exploit on the other hand has post after post condoning it and excuses for doing it, so you'd better get hammering on the old ignore button.
Yes they are
Because if you are "putting out reasons why people do it" then you are condoning it. Anyone not condoning it wouldn't even try and think like a cheat! Simple as that
Saying it's trivial/non issue is also a form of condoning, because they are in effect saying "the problem is so small it is not worth bothering with" and thus the end "it's not worth bothering with" = saying it's fine for a few people to do. Very basic stuff this!
And given the devs promised after the last "expose" not to ignore it any more I'm sorry but saying "they need to fix all my other priorities over a year later at some point down the line first" is frankly
If people don't care about Combat logging fine....plenty of other threads eh? The only reason people who "think it's a none issue" are here is to try and make sure the devs don't take action.
Now these people may claim they don't combat log. But the only people in my experiance who don't want action taken against cheaters are the cheats themselves!
And ask yourself this? Is it really too much for the devs to instruct the mods to delete posts/ban people who advise people to combat log? Really? Because they would be for any other form of cheating. So why aren't they here?
Because they condone it. Simple as that! They don't care because the people who are "cheated against" are seen as "undesirables", they ignore all the PvE cheaters - vastly more - because it suits, and focus on the fact that a large part of the community hate PvPers with a passion and thus they can basically get away with whatever they want when it comes to ignoring cheating "against PvPers"
As long as it's framed as "against PvPers" that is...and to do that...to keep that narrative all they need is an couple of dedicated forum users happy to shift the focus back to the "undesirables" and why we shouldn't listen to them! In short: People like you are part of the problem. Not part of the solution, and you are that way deliberately.
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Sorry but I have no sympathy for cheats.
None at all
They are the lowest of the low in gaming and I'd rather not put my brain down in the gutter with them
Of course you are free to do so if you wish. But don't delude yourself
Expressing sympathy for cheats is a form of condoning/defending/excusing cheating.
Simple as that!
Empathy and sympathy, in context, are not the same thing my friend. While I might understand the feelings (empathy) of those who may combat log in some situations (eg against a griefer or ganker) I have no feelings of sorrow or pity (one contextual meaning of sympathy) for those griefers or gankers who get combat logged.
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*plonk*
There we go.
Can't argue with points being made that were in answer to something I never wrote, implied, or said. *shrug*
Some folks you just can't have a reasonable conversation with.
Sure, but that's kind of besides the point.
Let's take a different example of a cheat - memory hacking to give yourself invulnerable shields. The effect is pretty much the same as combat logging - you get to survive when otherwise you might not have. People do it in Elite Dangerous from time to time.
No-one condones it, no-one excuses it, certainly no-one is stupid enough to come onto Frontier's offical forums and advocate it, and frankly no-one is particularly bothered about being empathetic with the people doing it even though, yes, I can certainly see how someone might justify to themselves that it's okay because of reasons.
I do think it is a little more serious than combat logging, because combat logging is so easy to do someone might kill the process - once - in a panicked "moment of weakness", whereas one does not seek out, download, install and configure a memory hack tool in the same state of mind. But that's precisely why combat logging needs to be responded to - and "stern letter" is fine by me as a response for the first detected offence - to stop people going from one-off panic to habit to recommending it to others.
If Frontier had taken the same attitude to memory hacks as they have to combat logging we'd see a lot more people using memory hacks. But we don't, because Frontier bans them, takes various steps to make it harder to do in the first place (and I fully agree we shouldn't be given any detail of what those steps are), and makes a visibly successful effort to stamp it out.
Memory hacks are right up there at the top of the list when it comes to cheating in a multi-player game.
Again, I'm with you on combat logging - it is serious and it is wrong.
Doesn't stop one from understanding why some will do it. But it's still wrong.
No they are not, and this grade-school level logical fallacy and perjorative hyperbole is insulting enough to anyone with a semblance of inteligence, it belongs in the Daily Fail.
Let me provide a real world parallel of your 'very basic logic'.
My wife is the head criminology at the Law department where she has lectured for the past 15 years, primarily on Youth & Restorative Justice. They provide joint courses with the Sociology & Psychology departments which explore the different socio-economic, familial, educational, etc. correlations with different types of crime. They are, in short exploring some of the many reasons that may be behind different criminal inclinations and behaviour. By your logic, she and all of her colleagues across multiple departments 'condone crime'. See how stupid that sounds?
Their department also provide work placements for all of their students - in probation services, penitentiaries, police departments, etc. During placements, students get to see first hand how all the social theory based work they have been bombarded plays out in the real world. Key among this is marvelling at how criminal investigations get prioritised - so many of which are deemed to trivial, within the broader scope of priorities, to be bothered with. Your broken logic train would conclude that the police are condoning certain crimes. See how stupid that sounds?
I appreciate what everyone is trying to do here and I even agree that combat logging hurts the game but not as much as being killed over and over by the same children that think Elite is another version of call of duty. Ill be happy to promote no combat logging and enforcement on the matter when I don't have idiots posting screen shots of targets they knew they could kill a head of time. You really arent learning anything new by doing this to them. You don't actually earn any type of benefit from it and if you are simply trying to ruin a CMDRs career then you have to know that your game play style is far more detrimental then any number of combat logs. I am not saying youre doing it wrong either but you are on one side of a two sided argument and the majority may very well be against you. Please dont give me the arugment of if they are in open then its open either. Anyone can come up with reasons to support the own gameplay preference. If you dont look at the pro and cons for everyone then you are only trying to please youself and the ones that agree with you. FDev has to find a way to please everyone. Not just the people that press open and say "KILL, KILL, KILL!!!"
All I hear are people condoning cheating because they dislike an intended in game mechanic. The same people that keep lumping together those who PvP with people who grief and gank, claiming all are insecure children, but what does it really say about you when you don't like an intended mechanic and so spit ya dummy?
Right....because cheating in a game is so like doing uni research/teaching into crime
Seriously you are making my point right there! No one in their right mind would condone any other form of cheating as per 1240 like people like you are with combat logging.
It simply does not happen!
But you have to use some twisted logic to make it like some real world example, because you want to make condoning cheating sound like some honourable past time! It's total rubbish is what it is!
Cheating is cheating, no matter what type you do. Combat logging is cheating is as bad as any other sort of cheating, including hacking.
As I've already said if you think the devs are so snowed under they can't even send vaguely threatening emails to accounts of people they have video evidence of cheating for then there is no way in hell we are ever going to get any of the other "more important stuff" you think is needed.
Oh and BTW you may not be aware but recently there was a big stink because of shoplifting under £250 not being prosecuted so people are now stealing £1000s in several goes of under 250 quid knowing they'll just get a fine they often don't even pay.
Because thieves saw no action would be taken and thus changed their behaviour so that they wouldn't end up in jail.
Same with combat logging. Cheats know they don't need hacks for invincibility, because they can just combat log and the devs will do nothing! Same result - they don't die. One gets you a ban the other? A load of people on the forums defending you who "don't ever combat log at all honest".
Yeah....pull the other one mate!
{again don't bother replying as you are now on the list of cheat enablers}
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Goose4291
Banned
I think you're (possibly deliberately) are misconstruding what I'm saying
I regard the 5/1 exploit as cheating (now) and therefore worthy of punishment because Frontier have declared it as such, just like they did with combat logging prior.
What I was saying is that you can't retroactively punish people in a serious manner for something you've not previously announced as being a cheat.
You need to reread my second paragraph.
Aw diddums blocked me... I'll respond anyways, so the rest of us can revel in your complete lack of rational cognitive functioning. The parallel I provided was to expose your dysfunctional logic train, not compare uni research to cheating in a game, so I'll dumb it down another level...
Combat logging is cheating. Agreed.
Cheating is cheating. Agreed.
BUT...
Explaining why someone might be inclined to cheat DOES NOT equate condoning. Logical derailment, do not pass go.
Considering tackling clogging (which seems to affect a small but vocal minority) a trivial priority within the broader scope of the games development priorities DOES NOT equate condoning. Fail.
But then hey, you've now blocked me for apparently being a 'cheat enabler' for simply outing your complete disconnect from logic... brilliant.
Glad I'm not the only one who sees what is going on here
I can't agree with the idea that only things pointed out as being cheats by FDEV are actually cheats, that means any new cheat can't be considered bad until brought to FDEV's attention and added to the official naughty list. It would also mean that someone setting out to find cheats then cheating and keeping it to themselves isn't cheating at all.
We all have the capacity to look at something and go nope that's dodgy, there's no need for outside input to classify it.
Conspiracy theories don't help your cause, they are funny though.
What issues?
That there are people who play in open who think that no one should be able to kill them?
That there are people who play in solo who still after 1000's of hours pull the plug when the NPCs come calling because all they want to do is "trade in peace" and outfit their ships appallingly?
Those who think that for some reason NPCs should be able to interdict you more than once and they should be able to interdict NPCs again if they fail a kill mission but that players shouldn't?
All I see there is people who are scared of losing imaginary in game assets for no reason other than a possibly bruised ego!
If someone harasses you in game that is different, you can report them and FDev will/should take action, and you can block them. So there is still no legitimate reason to cheat.
People are just coming up with lame excuses to cover the fact they don't want to pay their rebuy - ever. If you are scared of other players get the heck out of open - simple
There quite simply is no "issue" that requires someone to combat log. Not one. Anyone saying there is is condoning cheating. End of discussion!
People are acting like we're talking about young kids in the ghetto selling drugs. That's when people need your empathy for not following the rules, not when it come to cheating intended mechanics in a game.
I never said it was a "majority" of players, only that is was frequent problem for many players. Which is quite obvious if you read the forums and bug reports.
I never claimed to. You made that claim about "statistical analysis" when it was obviously untrue.
Which tells me that you and your player group likely have a playstyle which does not encompass a wide enough variety of game activities to encounter these various bugs.
Everything else you've typed is basically you stating over and over that your personal gaming experiences in Elite are somehow more relevant that all of the information I've read on these forums.
Sorry, but they aren't.
First, I was never limiting my discussion to simply "connection issues" as you like to put it. I was referring to the entire range of bugs and problems, many of which require the game to be task-killed and would be quite relevant for the issue of detecting and "punishing" combat logging.
Second, whether you've actually encountered bugs that were reported numerous times is very relevant. If you haven't experienced either of these bugs personally then that tells me your experiences are quite limited in this area and I shouldn't give your personal "experiences" any particular consideration because they are too limited to be relevant.
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