PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

And that is the issue, because they have publicly said otherwise. They even included combatlogging as one of the things they want to shadowban players for with their new Karma system. So, they are saying one thing, but doing another behind closed doors.

And I've read your proposal before. It's a good idea, but it doesn't stop anyone from going out for an hour and log back in again. So basically it just limits the serial combatloggers to take an hour break every time they meet opposition they can't tackle.


Good, you've indentified the key challenge is to decrease CLogging, rather than focusing on the punishment itself.

And if a Cmdr remains logged out of the game for an hour, well that's an hour where they can't sealclub or blockade run or whatever. Which is the point, isn't it?
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
Griefing, i.e., deliberately and repeatedly destroying a specific CMDR's ship in a manner that prevents them from making progress in the game is very much against the rules.
No, it is not unless it falls under FDev's definition of harassment!

Sandro Sammarco said:
Now let's take another example: the hypothetical Commander "greifconda" slaughtering the hypothetical Commander "newbwinder" with maniacal glee. The first thing to note is: as an event, it's acceptable within the rules of the game. The rub is that some folk (myself included, for what it's worth) feel that the consequences of such actions are not commensurate with the act committed. So whilst I want to defend the right of "griefconda" to exist, I want to make sure that there are meaningful responses in the game world to their actions.
Here

Zac Antonaci said:
In addition taking action such as seeking out and targeting specific players purely for the purpose of being disruptive, to cause offence, or to upset players within the community can also be considered harassment. A perfect example of this is deliberately attempting to disrupt public livestreams such as the charity ones mentioned before. This includes, but is not limited to, the capturing of footage and releasing it publically in an attempt to create upset or gain notoriety through the actions listed above.
Here

Note the "can also be". It doesn't mean that it automatically is, just that it may be depending on circumstance. What you call "griefing" isn't against the EULA, which is what we're talking about. It's against the in-game rules, but that's for C&P to handle.

Third time's the charm: Don't confuse issues, just to confuse them!
 
Some of these loggers are the very "griefers" you block Stigbob. Check out the description of my player group and what we do. Our members have had other players combatlog on them. Pray tell, which type of players do you think those were?

Yes I know, they are also the 5-1 cheats. Cheaters cheat it's what they do clogging, cash exploits, 5-1 it makes no difference they won't stop unless made to. If FDEV patch out the most recent one they'll just find a new way, I gave up on waiting for FDEV to do anything effective about the various cheats/exploits/greifing techniques which is why I went down the blocking line.

Anything else isn't worth the hassle.
 
And I've read your proposal before. It's a good idea, but it doesn't stop anyone from going out for an hour and log back in again. So basically it just limits the serial combatloggers to take an hour break every time they meet opposition they can't tackle.
In practical terms, that'd actually be considerably better than now if it worked. You could stop someone like that seal-clubbing with minimal effort.

However ... it would be trivial to bypass
- seal clubber adds the people attacking them to their blocklist
- seal clubber combat logs
- seal clubber logs back in, blocklist forces a new instance
- seal clubber drops the blocks (to avoid being shut out of the supercruise instance) and continues.

What I'd do is the opposite - any "in danger" disconnect with another player in the instance limits you to Solo for X hours (X on an accelerating curve if it happens more than once in a week).
- People who suffer an occasional genuine network issue get pushed to Solo for an hour - irritating for them, but not too big a deal most of the time.
- People who suffer frequent genuine network issues get pushed to Solo most of the time. Very irritating for them, but people with flaky network connections can cause all sorts of weird issues for everyone in the instance, so it's probably for the best.
- People who are combat logging on seal clubbers get pushed to Solo which is where they really want to be.
- People who are seal clubbers can be pushed to Solo for increasingly large amounts of time, keeping the system safe.

(Doesn't do anything about logs on NPCs for BGS purposes, of course, but as the general forum public loves having CGs locked-down that can be a lower priority)
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
So. Go to Reddit and see what people say about "cl" and that is my proof. Okay, I'll put that on my list.
No, go to reddit, see how common Combatlogging is, and then see if you can find any evidence of FDev action against it beyond a stern letter telling them to stop it. Hint: There is a separate subreddit dedicated entirely to documented combatlogging (some may be of the menu variant, and you can exclude those), and a lot of them are repeat offenders aka serial-loggers. They still play the game, and have been without pause.

I understand that you don't want to see that, but it is there.

But if the "proof" and obvious agenda is the same as here I honestly don't expect much.
The agenda is pretty simple; repeat combatlogging appears to have no consequence in Elite Dangerous, despite FDev claiming the opposite. The proof is in players being repeatedly reported for combatlogging, but are continuing to play in Open and combatlogging again and again.
 
I'm just trying to figure out which is the most embarrassing: Paige's protestations that fdev really does indeed and truly police the game "secretly" or what seems like 2/3's of the forum base defending clogging, handily using the fact that it's "the bad guys" that are delivering the unhappy newsflash to legitimatize their crummy, cheating viewpoints.

Yup.

Sometimes I can't find a better word for this forum than "embarrassment" as it happens.


However, most people see CLogging as a legitimate defence against greifing.

But FD apparently don't, and it's their game.

However, the PVP community have done themselves no favours by both the Engineering exploit

Ah, so no PvE players at all used that exploit, yeah?

Was brought to public awareness by a PvPer but used by many from both sides. Naturally the correlation to how it was brought up has been vehemently used as part of a witch hunt since.

You cannot justify combat logging. No ifs, ands, no buts. None. Stop right there. N-O-N-E.

:)
 
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Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
Yes I know, they are also the 5-1 cheats.
Nope. The two are not the same. You may want to think they are, but they are not. The ones combatlogging on players from my group are lone commanders, who just won't take a rebuy when something other than a trade-ship confronts them. They are not the same as the 5-1-group you refer to, as they have the werewithal to leave the battleground before it comes to that, if you can even manage to defeat them.

Like I told Devari: Don't confuse issues, just to confuse them.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
And if a Cmdr remains logged out of the game for an hour, well that's an hour where they can't sealclub or blockade run or whatever. Which is the point, isn't it?
No. The point is to keep people from playing the multiplayer part of the game, if they continously show that they can't play within the rules of the multiplayer part of the game.

I don't want these people in the same instance as me. I want them confined to Solo without the means to affect any other player directly or indirectly, because they are obviously implementing a single-player mentality (God mode) into a multiplayer game.
 
The agenda is pretty simple; repeat combatlogging appears to have no consequence in Elite Dangerous, despite FDev claiming the opposite. The proof is in players being repeatedly reported for combatlogging, but are continuing to play in Open and combatlogging again and again.

Fair enough. But our ideas of "proof", then further, "proof" that FDev is lying may be a bit different. We will see.
And are the bulk of these CL'ers "combat ships" or griefers?
In my little world of logic that seems to be the only thing that makes sense.
Why would a "innocent trader" continue to force the issue of playing in Open if he intends to CL at the first sign of trouble?
The behavior of "I must be in Open" seems to fit only one player type.
 
Why would a "innocent trader" continue to force the issue of playing in Open if he intends to CL at the first sign of trouble?

How about you take some time on youtube and look for videos of clogging. You´ll find that all types of ships are logging; Sidewinders, Type 6s, Type 9s, FDLs, Corvettes... they all do it.
 
Was brought to public awareness by a PvPer but used by many from both sides. Naturally the correlation to how it was brought up has been vehemently used as part of a witch hunt since.

Lets not re-write history here.
IIRC some (one) PvP'er ran his mouth about it over at Reddit. Not reporting it but bragging over the salt of his victims.
The theme of a major cheat was quickly picked up, moved here, and was such an uproar that FDev was forced to look into it.
After that review process by them was announced and started suddenly the "PvP'er" (as guilty of it as the rest of them) and presumably hoping to distance himself from being a blatant cheater "announced his findings from personal research" as a "public service to the community."

I really didn't think anyone fell for that line of but it looks like I am wrong.

How about you take some time on youtube and look for videos of clogging. You´ll find that all types of ships are logging; Sidewinders, Type 6s, Type 9s, FDLs, Corvettes... they all do it.

If true then I must conclude that some of the player base are really dumb.
 
No. The point is to keep people from playing the multiplayer part of the game, if they continously show that they can't play within the rules of the multiplayer part of the game.

I don't want these people in the same instance as me. I want them confined to Solo without the means to affect any other player directly or indirectly, because they are obviously implementing a single-player mentality (God mode) into a multiplayer game.

You are talking about a shadowban, not restricting anyone to solo. If you just do not want them instanced with you, you can blacklist them. Presumably you man you don't want them to be able to instance with anyone. I'd say that's a much more reasonable request than account banning, but it's one that would require longer term trend tracking (karma system) to establish intent beyond reasonable doubt.

I get occasional game crashes (the screen freezes), and I need to end task & log back in. In these circumstances I want to continue whatever I was doing, in whatever mode i was in. I'm not doing it on purpose (although the reason for the crash may be my fault - overheating GPU for example), I just want to play my game. The CLogging punishment proposal I linked to (It is not my idea) would kick in & I don't even notice. That you don't want to instance with me because you think I'm a CLogger is of no concern to me, for all I know you cynically forced my disconnect (a brazenly paranoid assumption not based on facts).

If the player is forced to solo, it affects their gameplay (somehow, potentially etc). A Shadowban, even if only for a short while, prevents the cynical CLogger from completing their task (interacting with others in an undesirable way) which is good, but should not be the default. It's not against the rules to have a game that crashes, nor to have a bad connection, so it should not be penalised immediately. It could be another branch on the karma tree though.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
How about you take some time on youtube and look for videos of clogging. You´ll find that all types of ships are logging; Sidewinders, Type 6s, Type 9s, FDLs, Corvettes... they all do it.
Yes, but among the repeat offenders you will find many a "griefer" as defined in this forum. So the "protectors" of combatlogging here, are actually protecting the players they have the biggest issues with. The irony of that is not lost on me.

Lets not re-write history here.
IIRC some (one) PvP'er ran his mouth about it over at Reddit. Not reporting it but bragging over the salt of his victims.
The theme of a major cheat was quickly picked up, moved here, and was such an uproar that FDev was forced to look into it.
After that review process by them was announced and started suddenly the "PvP'er" (as guilty of it as the rest of them) and presumably hoping to distance himself from being a blatant cheater "announced his findings from personal research" as a "public service to the community."

I really didn't think anyone fell for that line of but it looks like I am wrong.
Eh...that's not entirely correct. Check your timeline again.

The exploit had been known to some for close to a year, if not more. It slowly spread into other PvP groups and was reported to FDev (directly, to avoid it becoming a game-wide thing) on numerous occasions. No action was taken from FDev for months, and "someone" decided to make it public by creating a bug-report on the forums here. It was clearly an alt-account, called bugreporter1234 or similar.

After that bug report was made, and it was clear that it was going to become public knowledge, a player from the group who (presumably originally discoved the exploit) posted a video of it bragging about its existance. Only then did FDev take action, and publicly announce that people using this exploit would face consequences.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
You are talking about a shadowban, not restricting anyone to solo. If you just do not want them instanced with you, you can blacklist them. Presumably you man you don't want them to be able to instance with anyone. I'd say that's a much more reasonable request than account banning, but it's one that would require longer term trend tracking (karma system) to establish intent beyond reasonable doubt.
Yes, shadowban is the term FDev uses for being "confined to Solo without the means to affect any other player directly or indirectly". That's is where I want them, as that's where they belong imho.

According to FDev they already have the ability to track this. They just appear not to. That is the OP summed up in two sentences.

EDIT: To clarify. I don't want this to happen to anyone just losing their connection. It happens to all of us, sometimes even because the game kicks us out even if we have a perfect internet connection. I want this to happen to those who have a proven track record of "losing their connection" when they find themselves at the other end of a stick that was too pointy for them to handle. Your solution would work well for the intermittent connection losses, but not for the repeating offenders of selective combatlogging.
 
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"I don't think they are doing enough" is fair comment, "they haven't done anything" is clearly an exaggeration.

The most severe punishment I've seen evidence of actually occurring is a shadow ban, which is very nearly nothing.

And if a Cmdr remains logged out of the game for an hour, well that's an hour where they can't sealclub or blockade run or whatever. Which is the point, isn't it?

The punishment has to be severe enough to discourage the offense, meaning it has to be at least as punitive as what would have happened if the individual had not offended in the first place.

The idea that FD is "doing nothing" came from SDC and it's a claim they have failed to prove.

SDC weren't the first and have hardly been the only people to notice that Frontier's negligible consequences haven't been enough to mitigate the issue.

You're doing the exact same thing that SDC is doing right now by making an assumption that the claim "FD is doing nothing about combat logging" is true.

I'm not making assumptions. My statements are based on multiple, repeat, observations of my own.

When someone comes into a CZ where I'm fighting, picks the opposite side, proceeds to engage my CMDR, disconnects five times in thirty minutes when I get close to stripping their shields, and, after submitting a report, with a complete video account of the scenario, I see this same CMDR still flying around in Open several times a week for the next month...it's pretty clear Frontier hasn't done much of anything.

When someone who has openly admitted, to cheating, on video, attacks my CMDR, loses badly, deliberately disconnects to save his ship, is reported (again, with corroborating evidence), then is still encountered in Open, it's pretty Frontier hasn't done much of anything.

Again, how do you "know" what FD is or isn't doing about any combat logging you might have seen?

Because I encounter parties that have admitted to combat logging rather frequently, in Open, and none the worse for wear...nor do they seem any less inclined to cheat in the same manner if they find themselves outmatched.

Keep in mind that FD's "punishments" even for a year of systematic cheating with the Engineering exploit are extremely mild so any "punishment" for combat logging would need to be appropriately mild as well.

Lenience in one area doesn't imply lenience in another.

There are also piles of exploits that haven't been explicitly forbidden where it's not reasonable to expect offenders to be punished, but deliberate disconnections were clarified as explicitly against the rules a long time ago.

I think the old way massacre missions stacked and the original incarnation of long range transport missions were at least as blatantly cheating as the 5 for 1 Engineering exploit...which is precisely why I avoided abusing any of them (if it doesn't make sense, and isn't explicitly allowed, it should be against the rules, IMO). Most of these sorts of things haven't been, and may well never be, denounced by Frontier, and whenever they have been, it's been long after the fact.

If you are expecting players to be banned from the game as "proof" that FD is addressing combat logging that is just not a reasonable expectation.

Experience has taught me not to expect anything at all!

You could chain interdict my FDL with a T-9, record yourself with a web cam as you reset your router fifty times in a row, and we could both report you, both provide video, and I'd be astonished if you got more than a warning, even if you begged for punishment.

FDev know they have a system & probably think it is enough.

I'm positive they don't think it's enough.

Griefing, i.e., deliberately and repeatedly destroying a specific CMDR's ship in a manner that prevents them from making progress in the game is very much against the rules. In order to see a specific CMDR combat log over and over again then there is very much the possibility that the CMDR is being griefed. Obviously if that player is initiating the PVP encounter and then combat logs then this would not be the case but like I said you might find that the actual situation in many of those combat logging cases is more complicated than it might seem.

Someone breaking the rules isn't license to do so yourself.

When a goliath fell on top of my Corvette during the skimmer bug, I could have disconnected and saved my ship and Elite NPC crew. I did not, because I am not a cheater. I waited three days for support to restore my funds and crew member.

Either someone cheated, or they did not. It's not always immediately obvious if someone is cheating (I can provide nearly as many examples of non-menu disconnections that weren't deliberate as I can deliberate ones), but if someone is cheating, the circumstances are completely irrelevant.

Good, you've indentified the key challenge is to decrease CLogging, rather than focusing on the punishment itself.

The best way to decrease it's occurrence is to make the punishment much worse than the loss of a ship.

Presumably you man you don't want them to be able to instance with anyone.

I want them to be categorically barred from interacting with, or from acquiring/preserving assets that could be used in, the same game as those who aren't cheating.
 
Nope. The two are not the same. You may want to think they are, but they are not. The ones combatlogging on players from my group are lone commanders, who just won't take a rebuy when something other than a trade-ship confronts them. They are not the same as the 5-1-group you refer to, as they have the werewithal to leave the battleground before it comes to that, if you can even manage to defeat them.

Like I told Devari: Don't confuse issues, just to confuse them.

No all cheats/exploits are exactly the same from the perspective of a legit player, especially a legit player who has gone after pro-actively blocking cheats and griefers only to find they are the same people.

There is one difference though which is severity, clogging is a trivial issue which saves the cheat a rebuy it's lame but it's not a big deal. No better and no worse than jumping on the latest quick cash exploit. Easy kill cheats like station invulnerability exploits or letterbox suicide ramming are much worse because they are done to try to spoil the game for other players and set their progress back.

I'll put up with lame cloggers as they makes me laugh, but players in the second category (or both) who's motivation seems to be salt/spite can find someone else to play with.

Now everyone (including FDEV) have their own sliding scale of just how naughty or not things are, but only mine influences me.
 
Yup.

Sometimes I can't find a better word for this forum than "embarrassment" as it happens.




But FD apparently don't, and it's their game.



Ah, so no PvE players at all used that exploit, yeah?

Was brought to public awareness by a PvPer but used by many from both sides. Naturally the correlation to how it was brought up has been vehemently used as part of a witch hunt since.

You cannot justify combat logging. No ifs, ands, no buts. None. Stop right there. N-O-N-E.

:)

I'm not justifying it. I am saying that most people see it as a legitimate defence against Greifing. I'm also saying awareness has to be raised (and maybe incentive is needed) that if you play in open, there is a chance of a pirate/muder hobo. I'm also saying that Frontier need to give some feedback on the number of Shadow Bannings, Game Bannings etc. that have happened due to Clogging and Griefing (i.e. harassment)

Now, I cannot stand people who seal club because they are killing the game in the long run (see what happened to Jumpgate!) but the PvP community have lost a lot credibility due to the Engineering exploit and the Mobius invasion. And if they don't see that those kinds of actions have caused an increase in combat logging, then that's their problem, don't expect much sympathy from people who don't PVP.

I can quite proudly say I never combat logged, even when I got targeted by the SDC in the Salome event, and it hurts when you've been seal clubed because you have just wasted x amount of time and your attacker has had a cheap thrill out of doing it and at the moment, there's no real in-game punishment for that kind of behaviour. It comes down to a case of choosing who I want to play this game with and if the Majority of Pvps come across as <expressive deleted extremity>, I won't play with them.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
I think the old way massacre missions stacked and the original incarnation of long range transport missions were at least as blatantly cheating as the 5 for 1 Engineering exploit...which is precisely why I avoided abusing any of them (if it doesn't make sense, and isn't explicitly allowed, it should be against the rules, IMO). Most of these sorts of things haven't been, and may well never be, denounced by Frontier, and whenever they have been, it's been long after the fact.
I agree with a lot in your post, although you want a bit harsher punishment than I do ;)

The above however, I don't agree with.
The massacre missions only required you to take two Massacre missions from the same mission board, no board hopping required, to work. It was a bug in the coding, but required no special behaviour from the users.

The 5-1 was a UI glitch that you had to know exactly what to do, and time it perfectly to get to work. There was no way to repeatedly do it unless you were actively trying to. That is not just a bug in coding, and using this was clearly on an entirely different level from the Massacre mission bug and current boardhopping (which FDev pretty much have said is ok, and was why they implemented the mission limits).

But I digress, sorry.
 
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