Those terms FDev put in place are very loosely versed, just about as loosely versed as the terms against griefers.
An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging
- Thread starter ryan_m
- Start date
Those terms FDev put in place are very loosely versed, just about as loosely versed as the terms against griefers.
When this seems so obvious to you, a PvP oriented player (forgive me if your tastes have changed), and it's in consensus with the non-PvP-specialists, why isn't this how the game already works? The missing part would be creating the correct authority archetypes for the system properties, and having them simulate patrolling the shipping lanes and the primary star for arriving criminals and react on detection. Right now, authority vessels are basically oblivious to Wanted craft in supercruise, and do not prioritising scanning Wanted craft first in normal space.
I am just playing a game. Sometimes i meet player, sometimes NPC. More often i am interdicted by an NPC's than a players.
That really doesn't apply, look at dictionaries, wikipedia's examples are quite valid.
A griefer is one that aims to cause grief for others, if or if not you think getting destroyed in a game is grief or annoying, it amounts to the same thing.
Aye, I agree, maybe I should have been clear when I indicated 4vs1 it was in the 4 trying to blow up 1 person
Edited post to clarify.
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Aye, I agree, maybe I should have been clear when I indicated 4vs1 it was in the 4 trying to blow up 1 person
Nothing wrong there. Wrong is trying to fight in 1vs4 instead of running, and whining with a grief to whole world "why i exploded, whyyyy?"
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I don't think that "Most combat loggers would have logged regardless of griefing or not". The problem now simply is that you don't know if you are faced with a "legitimate" pirate, or just a maniac looking to blow you up. If i walk in downtown Manhattan, and someone approaches me, i hear him out. Here we have a situation where the typical reaction has become to run. Why is that?
More spin.
SDC only care about ganking. Of course - it is FDEV's fault for creating a game universe in which continued and unabated ganking is possible. So I'll blame FDEV for that one, but I'll also blame you lot for the meta-gaming - because you bait players into combat logging by your indiscriminate ganking.
The whole issue here is not cheating, but a minority of players trying force their will on everyone else. That's not Elite.
Firstly, combat logging is only when the game is quit ungracefully. The majority of cries of "combat logging" include quitting through the menu with the 15 second cooldown, which is NOT combat logging. That is the factual definition and cannot be changed or dismissed, to suit your opinion.
The same effect as combat logging (ALT-F4) can be achieved though game/OS crashes, network disconnections or power cuts. All of which are extremely difficult for Frontier to prove or disprove. I had huge network issues at the start of 2015 which turned out to be MTU windows settings, which cut me off all the time - sometimes in combat. Why should I have been punished for a technical issue? Not cheating or my fault.
Player versus Player involves interaction by willing participants, so if someone quits the game, then someone wasn't willing. If that is someone who initiated combat, then blacklist that player. If not, then you're basically complaining that someone refused to be a victim.
Piracy and griefing are not the same thing. So the claim that NPCs are the same is nonsense. NPCs NEVER grief, because there is always a valid in-game reason for a player being attacked.
Griefers don't follow that approach. They just attack and kill without warning. They don't want piracy or combat, they want victims; seals to club.
What is needed far more than any penalty for combat logging is proper security in systems.
If a player attacks another, they get wanted - as it currently is and that's fine, but the results for killing in secured systems HAS to change.
Piracy would be possible anywhere, provided the pirate shoots to get his booty, but doesn't kill. When a trader has a choice between droppping cargo or 90% hull damage, the cargo loss is the better option.
Low sec and anarchy systems should have a higher % profit on goods, to encourage entrepid traders there.
I would like to see a rank for Piracy, based on booty credits attained without kills - killing would reduce your rank.
I would also suggest that there are some additional settings for Private Groups:-
In OPEN, once the security changes are implemented, I would change the menu cooldown to 30 seconds (a phone can wait that long) and then add a rule that any ungraceful exit during combat will result in loss of cargo and award the kill. A second ungraceful exit in combat in the space of a week would result in ship destruct. Everyone knows where they stand. If you have networking, hardware or power issues, stay out of open until they're resolved.
Also, I would ask for a Private Group setting "Admins of this group" to be an option, so you can pick friends who can manage the group with you.
Firstly, combat logging is only when the game is quit ungracefully. The majority of cries of "combat logging" include quitting through the menu with the 15 second cooldown, which is NOT combat logging. That is the factual definition and cannot be changed or dismissed, to suit your opinion.
The same effect as combat logging (ALT-F4) can be achieved though game/OS crashes, network disconnections or power cuts. All of which are extremely difficult for Frontier to prove or disprove. I had huge network issues at the start of 2015 which turned out to be MTU windows settings, which cut me off all the time - sometimes in combat. Why should I have been punished for a technical issue? Not cheating or my fault.
Player versus Player involves interaction by willing participants, so if someone quits the game, then someone wasn't willing. If that is someone who initiated combat, then blacklist that player. If not, then you're basically complaining that someone refused to be a victim.
Piracy and griefing are not the same thing. So the claim that NPCs are the same is nonsense. NPCs NEVER grief, because there is always a valid in-game reason for a player being attacked.
- You are wanted
- You are in an opposing powerplay faction
- You are carrying materials/cargo.
- You are in a conflict zone.
Griefers don't follow that approach. They just attack and kill without warning. They don't want piracy or combat, they want victims; seals to club.
What is needed far more than any penalty for combat logging is proper security in systems.
If a player attacks another, they get wanted - as it currently is and that's fine, but the results for killing in secured systems HAS to change.
- If a player KILLS another "innocent" (not wanted etc.) then they should get system security on their tail in that system for a week. Interdiction and attack until they leave the system.
- If they kill again, anywhere in that week, Federal or Imperial security (depending where they are) should then start to hunt them in all systems under their jurisdiction not low security or anarchy, for a period of a week.
Piracy would be possible anywhere, provided the pirate shoots to get his booty, but doesn't kill. When a trader has a choice between droppping cargo or 90% hull damage, the cargo loss is the better option.
Low sec and anarchy systems should have a higher % profit on goods, to encourage entrepid traders there.
I would like to see a rank for Piracy, based on booty credits attained without kills - killing would reduce your rank.
I would also suggest that there are some additional settings for Private Groups:-
PvP Permitted? Y/N
If Y, then Ship Destruct on combat quit (under any circumstances)? Y/N
If Y, then Ship Destruct on combat quit (under any circumstances)? Y/N
In OPEN, once the security changes are implemented, I would change the menu cooldown to 30 seconds (a phone can wait that long) and then add a rule that any ungraceful exit during combat will result in loss of cargo and award the kill. A second ungraceful exit in combat in the space of a week would result in ship destruct. Everyone knows where they stand. If you have networking, hardware or power issues, stay out of open until they're resolved.
Also, I would ask for a Private Group setting "Admins of this group" to be an option, so you can pick friends who can manage the group with you.
Reading through these comments is nearly as frustrating as combat logging itself.
Combat logging doesn't just affect groups like SDC, it affects the good guys too. There are certain people we have been after for a very long time (usually for attacking new players, or killing our members), and on the off chance we find them they just combat log when things aren't going their way. This isn't about good guys vs bad guys, this is about people following the rules (the rules set down by Frontier, who don't seem overly bothered about policing it).
Combat logging shouldn't be treated any differently to someone using a wall hack or an aimbot. Solo and Mobius exist for a very good reason, and if it really is so traumatic to die at the hand of another human then why even risk open?
Griefing can be policied by the players (and hopefully in the future with a better NPC policing system), but only if there is a decent anti-cheat in place. They can blow up newbies, ram people at docking ports, and be a general pain in the butt and then pull the plug as soon as a posse turns up to "sort 'em out".
I've personally been playing since Beta, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've been "griefed" as some of you put it. In my experience this is rare, whereas combat logging is not. It's far too common.
It's bloody frustrating as a freelance cop, I can only imagine what it's like for a legitimate pirate.
Combat logging doesn't just affect groups like SDC, it affects the good guys too. There are certain people we have been after for a very long time (usually for attacking new players, or killing our members), and on the off chance we find them they just combat log when things aren't going their way. This isn't about good guys vs bad guys, this is about people following the rules (the rules set down by Frontier, who don't seem overly bothered about policing it).
Combat logging shouldn't be treated any differently to someone using a wall hack or an aimbot. Solo and Mobius exist for a very good reason, and if it really is so traumatic to die at the hand of another human then why even risk open?
Griefing can be policied by the players (and hopefully in the future with a better NPC policing system), but only if there is a decent anti-cheat in place. They can blow up newbies, ram people at docking ports, and be a general pain in the butt and then pull the plug as soon as a posse turns up to "sort 'em out".
I've personally been playing since Beta, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've been "griefed" as some of you put it. In my experience this is rare, whereas combat logging is not. It's far too common.
It's bloody frustrating as a freelance cop, I can only imagine what it's like for a legitimate pirate.
Good idea, ''fix'' piracy before combat logging.
There is absolutly no point in doing anything with PvP piracy before CL is fixed.
New Equipment Item: Pirate Interdictor. If successfully interdicted, your drives will be offline for 5 minutes. During that time, the disruption field around your ship makes it impervious to waepons fire from any CMDR, not just the interdictor.
Interdiction with a PI will be a different colour than the traditional BH one, giving the interdictee notice that they are being pirated...
I guess the big drawback will be anything that puts an invulnerability cloak into the game needs to be held off client to stop hacking / unfair replication. Also, there might be some tuning around how long your drives stay off-line... if you have turreted weaps they might still be able to fire, etc...
If Piracy could be announced with a disabling, rather than destructive limit, it might go someway to distinguish between Piracy and PK?
Incidentally I want to point out the problem isn't proving if or if not someone exited the game ungraciously as it is generally called, the problem is more was it, as you point out, network issues? was it you closing the game one way or another? that is the problem, seeing a gracious vs ungracious exit of game itself is pretty clear from devs perspective.
And the problem is similar, "Proving" they didn't do it for an in game reason, you can prove they didn't want cargo, fairly easy, heck i'm sure they can see if any communication was done or not, but unfortunately many griefers can make up a reason, and without investing time and effort into examining deeper if or if not this reason holds true, it is a tricky thing, and if they had to do that for every situation, despite how made up the reason seems, it would just take too many resources, which is why griefing, in general in not just elite, but many games, continue to happen, until an in game mechanic in one way or another discourages it.
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It is a known fact that killing players has almost no consequences for the killer (in any sec level), but hard consequences for the victim (Insurance, Commodities, Materials!). It is way too easy. There is no counter. Engineers have made it possible to grind for an OP ship (where vanilla stands no chance). If this would only be an issue in anarchy systems, i'd be fine and realistic. But it is an issue everywhere. There are no save places in Open. This is not the version of mankind in the distant future i am interested in. I is not a civilised society.
Coming back too topic. Way too many players exploit the lack of crime&punishment systems. I experienced it twice (ramming while docking), lost a lot, left open and didn't come back.
If we can begin talking about it disabling or near disabling, severely weakening pirates weapons, then 'maybe' disruption field makes little sense, instead hit the pirate? maybe instead of on either it could be a field in space, because of the massive disruption, that also disrupts weapons, reducing their power significantly?
I think you hit the nail on the head there. perfectly summed up.
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Got to pick you up on your language a bit here.. 'consensual', 'victims'.. See what you did there? I've seen this quite a bit. Grief? Hop on a plane to Syria and watch your loved ones get blown to little pieces, thats grief. Consent is something that my girlfriend offers me in the bedroom, and being a victim suggests one has been party to a real life crime.
How un earth are folks looking at actions re a computer game and using this warped language to describe it?
Sorry but this is all wrong. Particuarly when the game is sold having taking place in a cutthroat galaxy etc..
Going back to your question.. What would the effects be on Open? Perhaps a number folks would not use that mode anymore, or use it a bit more selectively. So what? Better that than wasting other peoples time.. If all they are going to do is cheat by combat logging I'm sure I'd not be wanting to play the game with them as friend or foe at all.
Whats this pitiful situation coming down to, a cheater veto? 'If I can't combat log then I'm not going to play in Open.' - wow
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Rather than some multi coloured interdictors and immunity, why not have 2 weapons modes, disable and kill. disable does just that to targeted modules, making a pirates sole purpose to get the shields down on the ship then hitting the hull does a disabling effect on the modules targeted, not instant but similar to currect module targeting. To stop exploit of griefers , once hit by a kill mode weapon then the disabled are immediately nullified and ship is back at full capacity to escape. A victim would still have control of modules not disabled meaning thrusters and fsd would be primary targets and then weapon as a player could still potentially fire back.
Disabled modules reboot over time so pirates have to be quick to rob their victim.
Disabled modules reboot over time so pirates have to be quick to rob their victim.
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Combat logging is bad.
Piracy is a dead in-game career.
Piracy is dead because of indiscriminate ganking - no sane player nowadays thinks they're going to be interdicted by a 'genuine' pirate.
Indiscriminate ganking is made possible by the current game mechanics. It is obvious this is true because SDC members hide behind this fact.
The current game mechanics reward indiscriminate ganking and punish those who are at the receiving end of it because the consequences for being ganked are far worse than the consequences for repeatedly and boringly ganking indiscriminately.
Because of the above, one of the natural human instincts which is followed through by some but not all players - is to combat log.
Some but not all players also combat log to cause other players - bounty hunters for example - to get salty.
The overwhelming evidence is that it is the game mechanics that are lacking in some key areas:
1) The consequences for repeated indiscriminate ganking are next to nothing. <--- this is bad.
2) The consequences for being on the receiving end of a ganking can be downright devastating. <--- this is also bad.
3) Combat logging is mostly a symptom of bad game mechanics. <--- this is bad for the game and the community.
The solution is to put priority into sorting out the game mechanics:
1) Consequences for those who repeatedly and indiscriminately gank other players should outweigh the consequences of being at the receiving end of a gank.
- it is up to the game developer to figure out how this can be done. So far they have done nothing.
Am I the only person who can see what the underlying cause of all this drama is? Am I mistaken?
Piracy is a dead in-game career.
Piracy is dead because of indiscriminate ganking - no sane player nowadays thinks they're going to be interdicted by a 'genuine' pirate.
Indiscriminate ganking is made possible by the current game mechanics. It is obvious this is true because SDC members hide behind this fact.
The current game mechanics reward indiscriminate ganking and punish those who are at the receiving end of it because the consequences for being ganked are far worse than the consequences for repeatedly and boringly ganking indiscriminately.
Because of the above, one of the natural human instincts which is followed through by some but not all players - is to combat log.
Some but not all players also combat log to cause other players - bounty hunters for example - to get salty.
The overwhelming evidence is that it is the game mechanics that are lacking in some key areas:
1) The consequences for repeated indiscriminate ganking are next to nothing. <--- this is bad.
2) The consequences for being on the receiving end of a ganking can be downright devastating. <--- this is also bad.
3) Combat logging is mostly a symptom of bad game mechanics. <--- this is bad for the game and the community.
The solution is to put priority into sorting out the game mechanics:
1) Consequences for those who repeatedly and indiscriminately gank other players should outweigh the consequences of being at the receiving end of a gank.
- it is up to the game developer to figure out how this can be done. So far they have done nothing.
Am I the only person who can see what the underlying cause of all this drama is? Am I mistaken?
Then suggest us a better (and non-euphemistic) language.
Blatantly not true.
PvP piracy may be, sure.
PvE piracy is actually quite profitable.
And consider that Elite is not a PvP game, so maybe that is...in fact not a problem? unfortunately many seem to forget this.
Good points otherwise though
I most definitely agree as my own posts point out similar.
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I think after all is said and done - and FD hopefully mitigate issue in future - they should definitely go to play Solo/Private if they are terrified of idea of meeting human commander and losing ship to him/her. That's why modes exist.