An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Panticus]

Who cares?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to balance a game with all the Engineer's grind nonsense. There are now hundreds of variables.

My solution is either to play in solo (which is the mode the game, arguably, should have been created in), or not play at all.

My revealed preference is not to play at all.

 

[lenna]

Who cares?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to balance a game with all the Engineer's grind nonsense. There are now hundreds of variables.

My solution is either to play in solo (which is the mode the game, arguably, should have been created in), or not play at all.

My revealed preference is not to play at all.

And my preference is the relevant aggressive PvPer's heads served on a Palladium platter with a side salad and a shot of Lavian brandy.

 

[Panticus]

And my preference is the relevant aggressive PvPer's heads served on a Palladium platter with a side salad and a shot of Lavian brandy.

PvP'ers, encouraged by ED's p-poor Engineer's grind, which is no fun to anyone beyond min-maxers, are moaning that no-one will come out and be destroyed by them.

Quelle surprise. I can imagine the frustration!

Ho ho. ED livestream yesterday - less than 400 viewers - make it fun FD.

 

[lenna]

PvP'ers, encouraged by ED's p-poor Engineer's grind, which is no fun to anyone beyond min-maxers

Engineers are not a problem, and it is not just of use/fun to min-maxers either. I am not a min-maxer for example and find the engineers upgrades extremely useful if not essential for PvE (especially when you get up to the higher levels - e.g. above Expert in combat).

 

[Stigbob]

I suspect the only option truly open to them is to implement a guilty till proven innocent system i.e. if your connection drops, you ship is deemed destroyed, and it's up to you to prove that it was an accident. Some people believe this is a good solution, and frankly I don't have a big issue with trying it. I've also stated that if that is done, it should include some kind of "lives" system where you can get a certain number of get out of jail cards to use when it's truly a dropped connection, without having to call support. I see this as kind of like the Sky TV system or Itunes, where you can reset all your devices once per month or suchlike, but you can only do it once a month or x times a year. With this system, if you lost your ship due to a connection dropout that's not your fault, you can use one of your lives.

I live in the country with fantastic views, also high wind exposed wires and BT supplying "broadband" in area where they are currently being investigated by offcom for the patchy slower than you pay for service they provide.

In the game session I mentioned earlier which lasted a bit less than an hour I had 2 "could not connect to transaction server" errors one docked one in combat, a transition into supercruise (fleeing with my shields down) that lasted 10 mins then failed to the main menu with an error I didn't read and finally a black screen game freeze.

When I bought ED offline hadn't been cancelled and I lived in an area with superfast broadband.

I'd need 4 "lives" per hour played.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I do not think low numbers on live stream is necessarily reflecting the game doing badly.... i know lots who have little interest in such things.

Truth is ED imo is a fairly rubbish pvp game. Its a pretty good pwp game imo and a great solo game (albeit with obvios missing features like hirable wing men and escort missions etc)

I suspect every pvper could walk away now and the game would be ok... not ideal and not saying it would not hurt fd mind you....... BUT imo if every pwp pve player left i suspect that would be a disaster.

By FDs own admission the have given far more time to the minority of pvp players/ groups than they have the majority groups who dont pvp. This is a huge huge risk imo because i o once SC lauches i think a lot of those types will jump ship as sc is built with pvp and guilds and competetive MP at its core.

Surely FD must know this?. Lose the PvE players at their peril imo (dont get me wrong so long as PG exists me personally.. they are stuck with me to the bitter end but how many of the core backers are disgruntled? If its a lot of them that hints FD have let them down at some point

 

[bitstorm]

Love the PvE players at their peril imo (dont get me wrong so long as PG exists me personally.. they are stuck with me to the bitter end but how many of the core backers are disgruntled? If its a lot of them that hints FD have let them down at some point

PvP will never be accepted until such time as it's made less punishing. Players are literally kicked in the teeth by the game for participating in it.

Making death punishing is fine in a single player game since the player should always win. But in a multiplayer game it just disincentives people pew pewing with each other for fun, which regardless of your view of PvP, really should be one of the first goals of a multiplayer space game.

Taking an objective view, making a game that enables people to pew pew in spaceships and to enjoy the experience should be the primay goal of any space game, but ED just doesn't. Well actually, maybe it is fun, but the game's need to punish one side for engaging in it just seems utterly bizarre, and for me is at the root of all this mess.

I do not think punishing everyone involved via C&P to make it equally bad for everyone, is really the right way forward.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

Personally speaking, if you think clogging is fine irrespective of the reason then its a disaster for the game. Its really no different to saying shield scripts or damage scripts are fine. I truly hate what people have done to open to make it seem like its a cesspool of gankers but its still no excuse. All is lost for this game (for me anyway) if the community turns to cheat acceptance because of the epic failings of FD to implement a C+P mechanism in game thats been repeatedly requested for the last 24 months.

If you accept cheats as the norm, as a way round an obstacle then when that obstacle is removed you will simply find something else to justify it. I've seen this is previous games, its a slippery slope. I don't really care how toxic part of open can be I really think as a community cheating and cheaters should be shunned, not applauded and encouraged.

I would love to know the history of the typical ED gamer that condones it, I wonder if they are "born again" gamers who missed out on the MP scene of 2000 - 2010 and therefore missed just how damaging cheating is to games.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I do not think punishing everyone involved via C&P to make it equally bad for everyone, is really the right way forward.

Fair enough to each their own. We both want different games that is all i guess.
For me its not making crime and punishment more harsh (tho that woukd be the side effect in general) it is about making it believable and realistic. When a ship costs 100s of millions any society woukd take a dim view of blowing them up without a legal reason and even if insurance covered 99.5% and covered cargo SOMEONE would be carrying the can for the costs and as such would employ debt collectors or such like to get their money back from those causing the destruction.
You say harsh (i say realistic) is bad for everyone, i say its good for anyone who want as believable game to have the career as spaceman in.

PS my game npcs are characters too therefore there is no reason to pick a PF member over a none PF member unless you have a missio. Whi h specifically demands it.

- - - Updated - - -

Personally speaking, if you think clogging is fine irrespective of the reason then its a disaster for the game. Its really no different to saying shield scripts or damage scripts are fine. I truly hate what people have done to open to make it seem like its a cesspool of gankers but its still no excuse. All is lost for this game (for me anyway) if the community turns to cheat acceptance because of the epic failings of FD to implement a C+P mechanism in game thats been repeatedly requested for the last 24 months.

If you accept cheats as the norm, as a way round an obstacle then when that obstacle is removed you will simply find something else to justify it. I've seen this is previous games, its a slippery slope. I don't really care how toxic part of open can be I really think as a community cheating and cheaters should be shunned, not applauded and encouraged.

I would love to know the history of the typical ED gamer that condones it, I wonder if they are "born again" gamers who missed out on the MP scene of 2000 - 2010 and therefore missed just how damaging cheating is to games.

I DO agree but suicidewindering gets a free pass in all these threads and that winds me up its everybit as damaging to the BHer as trader CLing is to the pirate. (I do not give 2 squits about the serial killers)

And how many of these pvpers are billionaires due to exploits? No wonder those players are happy to look at ships as disposibke items.

These should all be looked at as a whole and not cherry pick 1 exploit and give others a pass imo

Insuspect those who do not care about clers are people who want a solo game or PwP so will never have people CL against them. I am one of those players but do not condone any exploits

 

[bitstorm]

Fair enough to each their own. We both want different games that is all i guess.
For me its not making crime and punishment more harsh (tho that woukd be the side effect in general) it is about making it believable and realistic. When a ship costs 100s of millions any society woukd take a dim view of blowing them up without a legal reason and even if insurance covered 99.5% and covered cargo SOMEONE would be carrying the can for the costs and as such would employ debt collectors or such like to get their money back from those causing the destruction.
You say harsh (i say realistic) is bad for everyone, i say its good for anyone who want as believable game to have the career as spaceman in.

PS my game npcs are characters too therefore there is no reason to pick a PF member over a none PF member unless you have a missio. Whi h specifically demands it.

The game has to compromise, simply because we respawn when we die, and write off ship after ship to the point no insurance company would touch you anyway. Actual realism isn't really there, we pay insurance on death only.

Although a level of realism should certainly exist, I don't think you can use that as a sole justification for a feature, there are clearly other factors to consider. Not least of which this being a game, and ultimately is should be enjoyable, and encourage/enable players to engage in fun activities.

As I say space combat has to be right up there on the list of things that a space game does well. Making it punishing because we want realism does not seem like a good argument, there simply are other factors that must be considered for ED to succeed as a game.

This is not an argument against punishement per se, it's just "punishing because realism" ultimately just serves to prevent people engaging in the activity, that activity being space combad, which ironically is the raison d'être for space games. The game has it backwards.

I keep coming back to the example of how much fun PvE players have on beta in Hutton Truckers PvP beta blowout. It illustrates the issue is not PvE or PvP, the issue is the game actively punishing people for shooting each other, which creates a rift where only the most dedicated PvPers will actually do it.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The game has to compromise, simply because we respawn when we die, and write off ship after ship to the point no insurance company would touch you anyway. Actual realism isn't really there, we pay insurance on death only.

Although a level of realism should certainly exist, I don't think you can use that as a sole justification for a feature, there are clearly other factors to consider. Not least of which this being a game, and ultimately is should be enjoyable, and encourage/enable players to engage in fun activities.

As I say space combat has to be right up there on the list of things that a space game does well. Making it punishing because we want realism does not seem like a good argument. This is not an argument against punishement per se, it's just "punishing because realism" ultimately does nothing and just serves to prevent people engaging in the activity, thes activity being space combat for God's sake, which ironically is the raison d'être for space games.

True but i dont see why the pilots federation insurance company sending out claims adjusters to "punish" players who consistently destroy clean PF members is not great gameplay..... indeed similar happened in 1st encounters. Proper piracy needs to be tweaked to make it easier to pirate players without blowing them up, fail and get hunted, sounds fun to me.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Just do away with rebuys.

Ask yourself: does it actually do anything for the game?

 

[bitstorm]

True but i dont see why the pilots federation insurance company sending out claims adjusters to "punish" players who consistently destroy clean PF members is not great gameplay..... indeed similar happened in 1st encounters. Proper piracy needs to be tweaked to make it easier to pirate players without blowing them up, fail and get hunted, sounds fun to me.

Would that work though. I mean if I'm killed I still have a 10 million rebuy, although there is some level of "karma" going on, am I any happier?

Wouldn't it invevitabley be that any player killing other players is then eventually forced into a situation where they cannot rebuy and have to downgrade? This doesn't sound good.

I don't know, again I think it's just then limiting gameplay that folk don't like. The actual reason they don't like it being they've been punished for something, that being a huge rebuy because another player blew me up. I mean the root issue is still there isn't it.

I do think it's probably possible for both solutions to co-exist, we can make punishment for death at the hands of another player less harsh (zero rebuy for PvP) AND have a C&P system. Though I would like it if C&P had more to it than just being a stick to punish players with.

 

[lenna]

Just do away with rebuys.

Ask yourself: does it actually do anything for the game?

You do have a point, but some kind of death penalty does give an element of immersion.

Arguably, for PvEers the loss of cargo, failure of missions, and loss of data is perhaps the larger part of the loss.

 

[bitstorm]

Just do away with rebuys.

Ask yourself: does it actually do anything for the game?

That's honestly how I feel. Just for PvP for me though. I feel rebuy serves no purpose in the context of PvP, rather it's actually harming the game.

In a single player game yes a rebuy makes sense, the player should *always* win.

In a multiplayer game one player *has to lose*, huge rebuy makes no sense in that context.

ED is both a single and multiplayer game, if you're going to make it actually work then AFAICS you're gonna have to differentiate death at the hands of a player vs an NPC.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

That's honestly how I feel. Just for PvP for me though. I feel rebuy serves no purpose in the context of PvP, rather it's actually harming the game.

In a single player game yes a rebuy makes sense, the player should *always* win.

In a multiplayer game one player *has to lose*, huge rebuy makes no sense in that context.

ED is both a single and multiplayer game, if you're going to make it actually work then AFAICS you're gonna have to differentiate death at the hands of a player vs an NPC.

I am not certain but that sounds rife for exploits. .... build up big bounty then let your mate blow you up, he gets the bounty, you get your crimes wiped and a free rebuy.

 

[lenna]

That's honestly how I feel. Just for PvP for me though. I feel rebuy serves no purpose in the context of PvP, rather it's actually harming the game.

In a single player game yes a rebuy makes sense, the player should *always* win.

In a multiplayer game one player *has to lose*, huge rebuy makes no sense in that context.

ED is both a single and multiplayer game, if you're going to make it actually work then AFAICS you're gonna have to differentiate death at the hands of a player vs an NPC.

Detecting the cause of death could be the hard part though, in a situation with both NPCs and PCs shooting a target (perfectly possible situation in ED) it may be near impossible to determine who fundamentally caused the death of the target player. It could work at some level but there is still room for abuse and PvP players leaving targets in a situation where they end up dying without them actively killing them.

Alternatively, a player could arrange for a "friend" to kill them in order to avoid the rebuy cost - to discourage this PvP killers would have to pay the rebuy cost of PvP targets.

The current rebuy system is not perfect perhaps but it is probably the best solution.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

I still feel a lot of this is to do with the fact that for a variety of reasons, Open has become entrenched in peoples' minds as the default mode.

I always took it to be Solo is for learning the game and staying there if you like it.

Groups are for controlled MP with known friends

Open is seeing if your water wings can survive shark bites...

I feel as annoyed by a Trader CLogging from Open as I do from a Ganker Youtubing their seal clubbing.

Open is not the be all and end all of the game. You don't get a medal for playing that mode.

It should be emblazoned across the select screen "Open: Other players may violently oppose whatever you are doing in game, for any reason or no reason. Be advised and don't say you weren't warned!"

 

[Rustled Jimmy]

You do have a point, but some kind of death penalty does give an element of immersion.

Arguably, for PvEers the loss of cargo, failure of missions, and loss of data is perhaps the larger part of the loss.

Then offer a 100% insurance coverage. That way muh immersion is intact, and people can stop fearing loss as much.

 

[the100thmonkey]

That's honestly how I feel. Just for PvP for me though. I feel rebuy serves no purpose in the context of PvP, rather it's actually harming the game.

In a single player game yes a rebuy makes sense, the player should *always* win.

In a multiplayer game one player *has to lose*, huge rebuy makes no sense in that context.

ED is both a single and multiplayer game, if you're going to make it actually work then AFAICS you're gonna have to differentiate death at the hands of a player vs an NPC.

The game already does that - the notification screen tells you that it was a CMDR when that's how you go; the game is already sensitive to how you die.

Time and again, though, I've seen people either directly say that the issue with dying to both CMDR and NPC ganks is time, or imply that by quantifying their losses in how long it will take them to make back the rebuy and/or cargo costs. Time is the basic currency of this game: I generally don't play it for seven months of the year because of my job. My playstyle -- BGS-focussed -- takes a great deal of time, enough to make it impractical with a family and certain perfectly reasonable demands from my employer, such as showing up before 9AM.

Any financial setbacks due to death are largely irrelevant - I never fly without rebuy (and let's face it that's just a ridiculously easy thing to accomplish anyway,) and frankly the majority of the BGS work that players like me do is feasible with ships no larger than a Cobra Mk. III. Indeed, it's usually easier in the Cobra because so few ships can catch it if you put even minimal mods on the engines.

Basically, for me, risk vs. reward is not a concern in this game. I suspect that a great many CMDRs would also put a lot more time into PvP if they weren't punished for it. In PvP, you're going to die a lot when you're learning, which I guess is the point you were making. I can't think of a single other PvP game that I play (which is most of the games I play, but I don't play MMOs so can't comment on that genre) where you actively lose something when you die.

In single player games, failure largely results in being pushed back to your last save point. Most modern games autosave for you (although Elite didn't ,) so again, the only thing you really lost was time.

- - - Updated - - -

You do have a point, but some kind of death penalty does give an element of immersion.

Arguably, for PvEers the loss of cargo, failure of missions, and loss of data is perhaps the larger part of the loss.

Absolutely, and they all reduce, like sugar to delicious caramel, to time.