An observation on the combat video... Inertia

[drew]

We'll be able to explain this way with a bit of 'Handwavium' I know, but something that's bugging me a little from the video...

We've accepted that there is no anti-gravity tech in the Elite universe, yet the Sidewinders in the video demonstrate a massive level of inertial control as they emerge from hyperspace flight.

If you have a society who can control inertia on demand (effectively breaking Newton's first law as we accept it today) it would seem surprising that anti-gravity technology wasn't available as a result - they're effectively the same thing from the perspective of a piece of matter.

Discuss.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[JohnStabler]

I assumed the quick stop was only a visual effect to a relative observer and that the hyperdrive mechanism uses some kind of warp system which operates outside of normal space, so no worries about inertia or acceleration/deceleration.

That's my handwavium.

 

[Penthux]

Maybe it was done that way just for the movie?

In FE2 and FFE when entering normal space from hyperspace your ship still carries a certain amount of forward inertia from the jump. Perhaps it will be the same in E: D?

 

[Zak Gordon]

Yeah i think we can almost disregard much of what is in the video as it was a completely scripted set-piece, with i assume all aspects designed for a specific look and feel. So the animators will have programmed the ships to come out of hyper space like that, which may not be how it happens in the game-engine running free.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

Frontier have so far refused to say whether that was hyperspace travel or fast in-system travel. The right-hand side of the console reads "H DRV SYS" and talks about a jump sequence, but the actual view has streaks of matter moving past (like normal travel in Elite) and boundary markers showing your course (like fast travel in the Frontier games). From the look of the nebula at the start of the video, they were either skulking around way out on the edge of the system or in a very nearby dark system.

In a sense, hyperspace would be easier to explain, because it's 100% Handwavium. It would be easy enough to say that one metre of hyperspace maps to a hundred kilometres of normal space, so they were actually travelling at the same speed in hyperspace as normal space and the apparent declaration was just what the transition looks like.

If that was fast in-system travel, then yes it's a bit of a headscratcher. Then again, surely travelling at that speed would realistically have you bombarded by so many particles of light and dust your ship would be instantaneously atomised?

 

[drew]

Frontier have so far refused to say whether that was hyperspace travel or fast in-system travel. The right-hand side of the console reads "H DRV SYS" and talks about a jump sequence, but the actual view has streaks of matter moving past (like normal travel in Elite) and boundary markers showing your course (like fast travel in the Frontier games). From the look of the nebula at the start of the video, they were either skulking around way out on the edge of the system or in a very nearby dark system.

In a sense, hyperspace would be easier to explain, because it's 100% Handwavium. It would be easy enough to say that one metre of hyperspace maps to a hundred kilometres of normal space, so they were actually travelling at the same speed in hyperspace as normal space and the apparent declaration was just what the transition looks like.

If that was fast in-system travel, then yes it's a bit of a headscratcher. Then again, surely travelling at that speed would realistically have you bombarded by so many particles of light and dust your ship would be instantaneously atomised?

They looked to be on the fringes of that solar system and then 'jumped' inwards, as you say, I would guess they were at a 'Jupiter' distance out, so let's guess 5-10 AU from the star. They covered that in just a few seconds, so several hundred times the speed of light.

Perhaps the hyperdrive and 'fast in system' travel may actually use the same 'technology', it's just a matter of scale. Both completely throw the laws of physics in the bin.

If normal 'space' is maintained in a relativistic bubble that moves the ships around in that fashion I guess this makes sense. It's effectively some kind of Alcubierre warp drive. The contents of the bubble never locally accelerate significantly, thus no inertial problems.

Having a working warp drive is pretty impressive of course!

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[natte hond]

We'll be able to explain this way with a bit of 'Handwavium' I know, but something that's bugging me a little from the video...

We've accepted that there is no anti-gravity tech in the Elite universe, yet the Sidewinders in the video demonstrate a massive level of inertial control as they emerge from hyperspace flight.

If you have a society who can control inertia on demand (effectively breaking Newton's first law as we accept it today) it would seem surprising that anti-gravity technology wasn't available as a result - they're effectively the same thing from the perspective of a piece of matter.

Discuss.

Cheers,

Drew.

al do the video was impressive and very exiting.
what we really saw was a bunch of fighter plane,s around two batllecruisers.
making really fast tight turns that are even close to impossible if there where an atmosphere.
I know the game is going to be big fun when it gets released
But what I saw was not a space sim.
it,s just a very interesting looking flight simulator.
not what I hoped for.
now remember my opinion is just a opinion.
with the amount off positive reactions its almost scary to give a honest response.

 

[PacalB]

Frontier have so far refused to say whether that was hyperspace travel or fast in-system travel. The right-hand side of the console reads "H DRV SYS" and talks about a jump sequence, but the actual view has streaks of matter moving past (like normal travel in Elite) and boundary markers showing your course (like fast travel in the Frontier games). From the look of the nebula at the start of the video, they were either skulking around way out on the edge of the system or in a very nearby dark system.

In a sense, hyperspace would be easier to explain, because it's 100% Handwavium. It would be easy enough to say that one metre of hyperspace maps to a hundred kilometres of normal space, so they were actually travelling at the same speed in hyperspace as normal space and the apparent declaration was just what the transition looks like.

If that was fast in-system travel, then yes it's a bit of a headscratcher. Then again, surely travelling at that speed would realistically have you bombarded by so many particles of light and dust your ship would be instantaneously atomised?

Agreed to all of that.

I'd also go as far as saying, "Hyperspace" and the use of "Hyperdrive" maybe the wrong choice of words here? Hyperspace normally refers to higher-dimensional space-time which wasn't what was going on here with those ships. Clearly they were still in "this dimension" taking it they could see the outside approaching star system.

The video looked to be more of a "warp drive". That one metre of hyperspace to hundred kilometres of normal space? Well, that works better with the warp space concept not the hyperspace one. Unless ... hyperdrive in this sense is something completely different? If that be the case, drew's right ... where has all that energy gone when these ships drop out of hyperdrive?

A reason to change the H DRV SYS to W DRV SYS possibly?

(We being too nerdy here? Handwavium? Maybe we need a word new addition? Switchoffium?)

Edit: drew, ya beat me to the post ... I stepped away from the computer to go do something then came back and hit reply post to see your post hitting the same mark.

 

[Michael Brookes]

al do the video was impressive and very exiting.
what we really saw was a bunch of fighter plane,s around two batllecruisers.
making really fast tight turns that are even close to impossible if there where an atmosphere.
I know the game is going to be big fun when it gets released
But what I saw was not a space sim.
it,s just a very interesting looking flight simulator.
not what I hoped for.
now remember my opinion is just a opinion.
with the amount off positive reactions its almost scary to give a honest response.

The flight model in the video was hand animated to create a specific scene for the purposes of scoring music pitches to, the actual flight model in game is different and more physics based although we do want it to be more accessible than the model used in FE2 and FFE.

Michael

 

[PacalB]

al do the video was impressive and very exiting.
what we really saw was a bunch of fighter plane,s around two batllecruisers.
making really fast tight turns that are even close to impossible if there where an atmosphere.
I know the game is going to be big fun when it gets released
But what I saw was not a space sim.
it,s just a very interesting looking flight simulator.
not what I hoped for.
now remember my opinion is just a opinion.
with the amount off positive reactions its almost scary to give a honest response.

Hey, don't feel like that friend, your opinion is valid and respected. There are many of us who like the science side of the game and have accepted bits of "handwavium and switchoffium" to enjoy the game.

Remember now, these ships are 3300 AD tech! Advanced fly-by-wire that is off the rails tech wise, along with x,y and z thrusting methods that have power levels you (we) couldn't possibly imagine. :smilie:

Edit: Michael nailed the reply!

 

[Perseus]

I'm looking forward to the explanation of the FTL travel, both for interplanetary or interstellar navigation. It's going to have to be fantastic, in all it's meanings, because it violates our understanding of physics as we know it. Theory is not yet practice in terms of breaking the light barrier.
Maybe a ship skims between normal and hyper space for interplanetary travel? Explains why normal space could be seen whilst zipping along at an 'unrealistic' speed.
I noticed the fuel on the Sidewinder dropping very quickly. It made me think about what would happen if a ship used all it's fuel up while still in deep interplanetary space. How long would it take to get to a refuel point? Or would this be a scenario for a distress/request call? Fuel might cost a fortune if a player were to run dry even 1 or2AUs from a station.

 

[RAMJB]

I'm one of those Science nerds out there to the point that for what I'm seeing I'm one of the few who actually loved space combat as depicted in FE2 and FFE.

However that doesn't mean I can't have capability to accept what you could consider unrealistic behaviors in space if they're well explained. As someone else said, it's year 3200+ and technology is different. Not only that, given the rate at which phisics are advancing right now who knows what we'll have discovered one millenium from now about ways to "cheat" the relativistic limits about faster than light travel.

There have been a lot of realistic Sci-fi works out there that have handled hyperspace in many different ways. All of them theoretical, none of them realistic (how can you be realistic about hyperspace and FTL drives if for all we know at this moment, they aren't possible?) but most of them realistic.

Take a look at Battlestar Galactica, the remade series, not the campy 70s thingy. That thing had a TON of realism built into it (with some licences here and there, gotta admit, but AFAIK is the first show for the masses that show real newtonian phisics in space fights). It had FTL travel - and gotta say some damn impressive sequences of it at work. It's realistic? no (given what we know now). It was believable?. Absolutely.

Some realism thrown out of the windows - with a proper explanation on how things work to overcome some issues and why they work like they do- is more than OK for me. In fact I'm still hoping for Newtonian mechanics to make it into the game one way or another. Maybe "dumbed down" and made easier by the MMM millenia tech "flying by wire" and making things more alike to atmospheric flight, but still working.

And I'd love an option to switch that "fly by wire" off and fly the crate manually. The kind of absurd maneouvers you can pull using a combination of inertia and vector thrust would give an amazing degree of maneouverability and an instant advantage over anyone who was using "atmospheric fly by wire". Kind of an advanced mode for the really good space pilots .

 

[Sagan Ross]

When moving at very slow speeds as in the video (200 m/s) you totally CAN fly your ship like an airplane in space, after all 200 m/s is only 20 times faster than using bolt runs and it should easily be possible for the main thrusters to shift the momentum constantly to keep the nose of the ship pointed "dead ahead".

So i suggest that speed is the deciding factor in how "Newtonian" the physics is - and don't say there is no speed in space because you can measure the kinetic momentum of your craft and make a scale from that.

200 m/s = flying like an airplane.
400-600 m/s = semi Newtonian.
800+ m/s = full Newtonian.

This will also open up some tactics that might make ship combat more interesting - go slow and you turn fast - go fast and you have to deal with your angular momentum.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

My handwavium is that the ship actually travels at fairly standard speeds at all times. The hyperspace mode of travel goes through a 'dimension' where the laws of inertia don't work the same way as in the dimension we experience. There's almost a negative inertia, that accelerates the ship forwards, rather than retards its movement. The jolting forward of the pilot's head is because there's a slight discrepancy between the ship's speed when it entered hyperspace and when it exited.

Criticism would be welcome.

 

[RAMJB]

When moving at very slow speeds as in the video (200 m/s) you totally CAN fly your ship like an airplane in space, after all 200 m/s is only 20 times faster than using bolt runs and it should easily be possible for the main thrusters to shift the momentum constantly to keep the nose of the ship pointed "dead ahead".

So i suggest that speed is the deciding factor in how "Newtonian" the physics is - and don't say there is no speed in space because you can measure the kinetic momentum of your craft and make a scale from that.

200 m/s = flying like an airplane.
400-600 m/s = semi Newtonian.
800+ m/s = full Newtonian.

This will also open up some tactics that might make ship combat more interesting - go slow and you turn fast - go fast and you have to deal with your angular momentum.

Main question here would be... you can measure the kinetic momentum of your craft but relative to -what-?. One of the key concepts of Newtonian phisics is that speed can't be measured in absolute terms, it has to be measured relative to something. So let's say you're moving at 1200m/s relative to the planet you're moving near, and you are fighting another ship which is moving at 120m/s relative to you. Which of those scales do you use?. How you make the ships move in newtonian fashion relative to the planet while they're moving like airplanes around each other?.

It's not an easy thing to solve but I see what you're trying to explain and I think is an idea worth thinking about - as long a the option is there for the pilot to switch off the fly by wire system and fly his starship according to newtonian mechanics if he wishes so.

Picture it. Close fight, one starship moving close behind another, the 2nd one switches the assist mode off, pivots off his axis and faces the guy following him, at which point he fires his main engines and uses vectorial trhusters to push him over the enemy trajectory. That would instantly slow it down and put it it "over" the other starship as it passes him "underneath". At which point he pivots again towards the passing enemy, uses his engines to accelerate towards it (probably firing in the meantime) and voila, it's on his back.

The other guy if he's on assisted mode will keep his forward momentum, as he's "flying like a plane" and it's instantly outplayed.

that kind of controllability is what I'd love to see in ED and what can make space fighting so damn fun. The main issue with FE2 and FFE was that few people understood that the "jousting" style of fighting was because of a mismatch of relative speeds of the craft involved. Once those speeds were brought down to a reasonable level the fights were insane. Just insane.

 

[Luniticisi]

I have been told by someone in another thread that being able to turn your ship around whilst flying in the same direction was 'Dismissed' by Michael Brookes as he has said on several threads that combat becomes very dull when players can do that.

Just putting that out there

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Main question here would be... you can measure the kinetic momentum of your craft but relative to -what-?. One of the key concepts of Newtonian phisics is that speed can't be measured in absolute terms

To be picky, Newtonian physics has a perfectly good absolute reference frame which speeds can be measured relative to. It was only the early 20th century advances by Einstein and others which got rid of that. (And most computer games do use a Newtonian reference frame; I suspect trying to simulate special relativity in a multiplayer game would rapidly get the same problems as the StarDreamer)

The main issue with FE2 and FFE was that few people understood that the "jousting" style of fighting was because of a mismatch of relative speeds of the craft involved. Once those speeds were brought down to a reasonable level the fights were insane. Just insane.

It would have been much more interesting if the NPCs in those games had known that. The number of times I manoeuvred onto the six of some big ship and slowly pecked it to death with a 1MW beam laser, when it could have just:
- hit full retros and scraped me off its shields
- turned around without thrust and let me have it with its 20MW laser
- used its aft laser
Figuring out the flight model (which FFE switching you to "engines off" automatically on condition red was an excellent hint towards) changed it from "boring jousting match" to "fairly good fun, but incredibly easy".

Perhaps players of FE2/FFE can hardly be blamed for not figuring out how to fly their ships in combat when there was no example of how to do it well out there - obviously in Elite Dangerous the NPCs will understand the flight model, and make good use of it...

 

[RAMJB]

I have been told by someone in another thread that being able to turn your ship around whilst flying in the same direction was 'Dismissed' by Michael Brookes as he has said on several threads that combat becomes very dull when players can do that.

Just putting that out there

Bummer



Ian, you're right about the NPCs in FFE being easy after a while. but still now and then you'd get the random encounter that would get you to the brink of death and give you an adrenaline shot like few other things.

I'm still recalling one particular encounter with an Imperial courier in FFE, at a point when I thought I was mostly unbeatable. I was in a Panther with enough shields as to provide a planet with planetary orbital protection...lol.

I got out of it with 8% hull left. I simply couldn't kill the blasted thing no matter what as he was chewing through my shields first and hull later as if there was no tomorrow. And there almost was none for me after that. So even NPCs sometimes did put up a heck of a fight back then. What they'd do now...

 

[natte hond]

I have been told by someone in another thread that being able to turn your ship around whilst flying in the same direction was 'Dismissed' by Michael Brookes as he has said on several threads that combat becomes very dull when players can do that.

Just putting that out there

Ive read that post.
I think it it was a good one.
even if dismissed should that mean no longer a valid point?
frontier wasn't dull at all.
and the AI behind it was very good.
now I see it,s to difficult for most to do it the same again.
I think some where in between would be best.
only find flying like planes a bit disappointing.
that the scene was animated I recognised straight away.

now there,s a commercial out there that suggest it is going to be like this.
hopefully this doesn't influence final decisions.

I like to point out that in the polls about this where very diverse.
only to make clear that probably the in between would be best.

and like you all I hope for the best.
every body is very impressed how it looks like.
that,s no different here.
but one should never forget where we came from.
that's not F18 or F22 witch I also liked allot.

 

[Captain N]

I think his point was that while it's not necessarily dull in Frontier, it becomes dull when you transfer it to multiplayer, with humans flying efficiently rather than trying to make things fun for each other.

The AI ships in Frontier do a lot of silly things that don't make sense in a combat situation. If they didn't act like that, the combat would have become sadistically difficult and rather one-dimensional.

This was largely true of the original Elite as well, however.