News ANNOUNCING ELITE DANGEROUS: HORIZONS

[Ishkur]

????

So how are you "forced to buy" Horizons and subsequent expansions?


[edit]On second thoughts, just don't worry. You've clearly stated you're upset at being forced to buy it when you already get everything at no additional cost... and I know for a fact I will never have a thought process that can reconcile those two things. So let's just draw a line there and call it a day. I've reached the Frontier Forum Complaints Comprehension Event Horizon - and fear I will go full Sam Neill soon.

He did indeed state that he had a thought process that does reconcile those two things. It's called empathy for others. So the little quip about comprehension is ironic.

 

[Lt.Winter]

Of course I am not forced, but also I am not able. I already paid 50 for the base game a couple of months ago, and now 50 again? Too much, especially considering the fact that they didn't update the base game as much as they promised. Maybe they will do that for another 50 euro expansion. This company is disappointing me more and more .

We have to keep in mind that making stuff costs money, and there are those gamers who don't really see 50€ as a lot of money, or a 100€. That being said you should only pay when you get your moneys worth. And what that means is for everyone to decide themselves. It wouldn't be wise to limit their work to fit everyones wallet.

I'm not trying to sound elitist with this, and hope that some of you will get what I mean.

 

[Fire70]

We have to keep in mind that making stuff costs money, and there are those gamers who don't really see 50€ as a lot of money, or a 100€. That being said you should only pay when you get your moneys worth. And what that means is for everyone to decide themselves. It wouldn't be wise to limit their work to fit everyones wallet.

I'm not trying to sound elitist with this, and hope that some of you will get what I mean.

I think it is as much about paying for what you are getting (or what you are promised) and FD have made alot of promises.. Now they want you to fork out an annual subscription to keep that development going??

"Our funds are low, what should we do??" "I know, heaps of them were going on about landing on planets so why don't we let them land on a few planets, that will get them in. We will just charge them another game price and we will call it an expansion"...

 

[Assailer]

We have to keep in mind that making stuff costs money, and there are those gamers who don't really see 50€ as a lot of money, or a 100€. That being said you should only pay when you get your moneys worth. And what that means is for everyone to decide themselves. It wouldn't be wise to limit their work to fit everyones wallet.

I'm not trying to sound elitist with this, and hope that some of you will get what I mean.

Yes. Get 10 euro x 1000000, or 50 euro x 1000.... sounds like a good deal

 

[nexxo]

I think it is as much about paying for what you are getting (or what you are promised) and FD have made alot of promises.. Now they want you to fork out an annual subscription to keep that development going??

"Our funds are low, what should we do??" "I know, heaps of them were going on about landing on planets so why don't we let them land on a few planets, that will get them in. We will just charge them another game price and we will call it an expansion"...

"Our funds are low, what should we do?"
"We can't keep asking customers to pay for further development, so we carry on until the money runs out"

later...

"Our funds have run out, what should we do?"
"Well, time to shut up shop and kill the servers. This game is over, I'm afraid."
"What will our customers do?"
"It's a pity, but perhaps they can sign up to Eve Online. That's still going strong."
"Yeah, we should have gone with a subscription model..."
"Customers didn't want that, remember? Or there is Star Citizen. They've got tons of money, and their demos look pretty good. Looks like a winner."
"--When it comes out..."
"Yeah, when it comes out (how long has it been?). I sure hope it meets people's expectations... we both know how tricky games development can get..."

See the problem?

 

[Ryder35]

Why comparing it to another game with a different revenue stream is pointless because it is not comparing apples to apples. Again I have played WOT (World of Tanks) for years and I have spent very little on that game but others have spent 1,000's of dollars.

We all get the same enjoyment out of it.... Free to Play works because enough players choose to play what they can...

You need to compare this game to others who use the same revenue stream. It is similar to say Total War. They release games and expansions while still improving the original, no different to FD BUT their expansions are not as expensive as the original game. Why, because they are not new games but bolt on so in theory much of the costs in developing that game have already been paid for by the original game.

There isn't many game where the expansions are so expensive, especially when you are just bolting stuff on to the original game..

FD are just price gouging on fanbois which is a bit sad...

You cannot compare it to Total War either. You are implying that they are basically re-skinning the existing game. Horizons is totally different: its 2 main elements are completely new and do not exist in the main game. Creating realistic planetary surfaces and a driving sim to allow you to move around. All of the AI required for combat and interaction with NPCs in that environment. Planetary flight with the possibility of hitting the ground and all the AI that is needed to prevent that. A new looting and crafting mechanic. None of these bear any relation to the current game and that is just what we know about from a whole year of content updates.

I would argue that is more of a complete new game in terms of programming challenge than the changes made between Shogun 2 TW and Rome TW. Comparing it to Rome TW and its expansion is just silly.

Would I be happier if it was cheaper? Yes but I would imagine FD needs money to survive and this is how they have chosen to fund the game. I would rather pay yearly and have a continually improving game than have them stop development because it is not financially viable.

Those who do not think the year's content is worth the price can simply not buy it. If enough people vote by keeping their wallets in their pockets maybe FD will rethink.

Disclosure I backed at Alpha so do not have to pay for this (Or have already paid might be a better way of putting it)

 

[darshie76]

I think it is as much about paying for what you are getting (or what you are promised) and FD have made alot of promises.. Now they want you to fork out an annual subscription to keep that development going??

"Our funds are low, what should we do??" "I know, heaps of them were going on about landing on planets so why don't we let them land on a few planets, that will get them in. We will just charge them another game price and we will call it an expansion"...

Indeed they did made plenty of promises; I told myself that they won't nickel and dime like Destiny, when I saw that they pulled out the planetary landing and the first person navigation...I was so wrong.

Price of the game + season pass + expansion + in game purchase....are gaming companies going mad or all of us players became rich all of a sudden?

 

[Toumal]

Indeed they did made plenty of promises; I told myself that they won't nickel and dime like Destiny, when I saw that they pulled out the planetary landing and the first person navigation...I was so wrong.

Price of the game + season pass + expansion + in game purchase....are gaming companies going mad or all of us players became rich all of a sudden?

So you didn't back the game at KS right?

Because they said so from day one. Go look on the KS page.

Claiming they just now "pulled it out" is absurd in the face of overwhelming facts.

 

[darshie76]

"Our funds are low, what should we do?"
"We can't keep asking customers to pay for further development, so we carry on until the money runs out"

later...

"Our funds have run out, what should we do?"
"Well, time to shut up shop and kill the servers. This game is over, I'm afraid."
"What will our customers do?"
"It's a pity, but perhaps they can sign up to Eve Online. That's still going strong."
"Yeah, we should have gone with a subscription model..."
"Customers didn't want that, remember? Or there is Star Citizen. They've got tons of money, and their demos look pretty good. Looks like a winner."
"--When it comes out..."
"Yeah, when it comes out (how long has it been?). I sure hope it meets people's expectations... we both know how tricky games development can get..."

See the problem?

And nobody wants that. But what if things were like:

Act 1:
Guys, we gotta make the best space sim; let's start a campaign and let's make some money so we won't have to fork a single dime out of pocket!

Ks campaign goes on; people are skeptic, but the project gets funds:
Guys; I see that SC is gathering a ton of money!
Yeah, they sell ship, and they made a totally fake video with stuff that does not even exist, but people love it and buy ships like crazy.
Dang! instead we go for getting the game out faster, let's start to pull out stuff that takes time and effort; we will eventually sell it later.
Yeah, good move! They will buy it like crazy because that's why they came here to support the game!
Right, SC won't be out before another couple of years; by that time we will have all the features out and sold as expansion.


KS campaign end....money get allocated, development continue with Alpha and Beta subscriptions.
Guys; money are not enough; what do we do? We promised plenty of stuff and we can't do it with the 40 guys that we have in house!
No worries; do this: shoot for the 400B system; people love big numbers; then just put randomly generated planets and put some real data in it, and the star creator will do the rest.
Then implement the basics of what we promised; we can always say that we will improve later.

The game get released:
Guys; the game sold plenty but still is not enough; what do we do?
Let's start to sell what we promised in the beginning, and then we pulled out; we have to implement the basics as usual, and people will be hyped to land on planets!
Since we can't do the FPS part, let's add the dune buggy; which is like the walker in Evochron; so we avoid to have to do the FPS part too. We can always make it next year when we will need more money, and call it an expansion.
Great! This assure us that we can actually continue to keep the game running, and instead of getting small chunks of money, we get a big cut when we sell the expansion.

Time will go by, money will run low; they will release finally some expansion that implement something new; which will be priced at....49 dollars! Pretty sure that we will pay for the overhaul of the various profession, which is basically what we were promised from the beginning

 

[darshie76]

So you didn't back the game at KS right?

Because they said so from day one. Go look on the KS page.

Claiming they just now "pulled it out" is absurd in the face of overwhelming facts.

No, I didn't because I didn't believe it would happen; and Star Citizen was more convincing, to be honest.

Can you find where did I claimed "just now pulled it out"? I said that since the KS campaign, there was this unwritten promise of doing planetary landing and exploration by foot; I will find the video where DB himself pitch it; and there was another video done with both DB and CR, interviewed by some guy about their respective KS projects, where they talk about planetary landing and first person navigation.

These are smart people; they won't risk a lawsuit, putting on paper something that then they are forced to deliver. Obviously you won't find it on the KS page; I don't think that you are so naive to not consider that they have also the legal aspects to factor in.

I simply said that the extras that are now offered as expansion, were basically part of the original game idea; but were never written down as deliverable. I am ok to pay for them; I do not believe that any of us users or backers should pay these more than 20 dollars thou. This is my opinion; if I get rich tomorrow and go buy Frontier; I will make it as public statement from the company; fair enough?

Here is an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM0Gcl7iUM8
The KS started on Nov 2012; ended after 2 months on JAn 2013; this video is from Dec 2012....

 

[nexxo]

Yeah, you can embrace the viewpoint that Frontier are scheming, manipulative evil sods or you can take the balanced view that perhaps it just costs a lot of time and money and effort to develop a complex game, and that Frontier, with the best will in the world, perhaps underestimated that. And so, apparently, did its customers.

It's not as if Star Citizen is any quicker about it, and is trying less hard to raise funds. It's not as if EVE Online adopted a subscription model just out of greed. Perhaps all those games developers, geeks like us with a love of computer gaming, trying to make a living at it, are just doing the best that they can. Crazy view, I know, but that's how I'm calling it, because I like to think I'm not the only saint/martyr/hero in the world.

Frontier could have gone the way that CIG has done: just keep raising funds, keep releasing pics and videos, and say: "When it all comes together some time in 2016 it's gonna be awesome! Promise!". That way ED would have been like SC: a game that hasn't had a chance to disappoint yet.

No. Frontier actually put a game on my desk. I actually see what my money got me, and for all its flaws I'm liking it so far. So I'm happy to give them some more money. My choice; you can choose to not like what you got so far and pull out.

 

[Fire70]

You cannot compare it to Total War either. You are implying that they are basically re-skinning the existing game. Horizons is totally different: its 2 main elements are completely new and do not exist in the main game. Creating realistic planetary surfaces and a driving sim to allow you to move around. All of the AI required for combat and interaction with NPCs in that environment. Planetary flight with the possibility of hitting the ground and all the AI that is needed to prevent that. A new looting and crafting mechanic. None of these bear any relation to the current game and that is just what we know about from a whole year of content updates.

I would argue that is more of a complete new game in terms of programming challenge than the changes made between Shogun 2 TW and Rome TW. Comparing it to Rome TW and its expansion is just silly.

Would I be happier if it was cheaper? Yes but I would imagine FD needs money to survive and this is how they have chosen to fund the game. I would rather pay yearly and have a continually improving game than have them stop development because it is not financially viable.

Those who do not think the year's content is worth the price can simply not buy it. If enough people vote by keeping their wallets in their pockets maybe FD will rethink.

Disclosure I backed at Alpha so do not have to pay for this (Or have already paid might be a better way of putting it)

From a revenue point of view you can compare it to Total War (as was the discussion earlier).

I think many here are over emphasizing how different the game will be. It is still running on the same engine and is the same universe, it is only really the code which is changed but it is no where near a new game. I would imagine the surface feature will be procedurally generated which is far easier..

Player can go rush out and throw money at FD but if is seems shallow like the main game still does at the moment I wouldn't be that surprised...

 

[darshie76]

Yeah, you can embrace the viewpoint that Frontier are scheming, manipulative evil sods or you can take the balanced view that perhaps it just costs a lot of time and money and effort to develop a complex game, and that Frontier, with the best will in the world, perhaps underestimated that. And so, apparently, did its customers.

It's not as if Star Citizen is any quicker about it, and is trying less hard to raise funds. It's not as if EVE Online adopted a subscription model just out of greed. Perhaps all those games developers, geeks like us with a love of computer gaming, trying to make a living at it, are just doing the best that they can. Crazy view, I know, but that's how I'm calling it, because I like to think I'm not the only saint/martyr/hero in the world.

Frontier could have gone the way that CIG has done: just keep raising funds, keep releasing pics and videos, and say: "When it all comes together some time in 2016 it's gonna be awesome! Promise!". That way ED would have been like SC: a game that hasn't had a chance to disappoint yet.

No. Frontier actually put a game on my desk. I actually see what my money got me, and for all its flaws I'm liking it so far. So I'm happy to give them some more money. My choice; you can choose to not like what you got so far and pull out.

No, I do not see any evil scheme; people in a company are workers; workers are paid for their work; someone must make money to pay them. This is called business, and this is how every business works, beside charities.

If you believe in feel good tales, of people doing things for the sake of doing it; you may get disappointed by the ugliness of reality.
I always recognized the hard work that they did; after all a team is as good as the person that direct them; that's usually where the handbrake is. Once this became a project with other people financing it; things got awry for the dreamers, and business take over (which was the main reason why this game was put on KS...to avoid to deal with publishers I believe).

SC is slower; because CR is creating a bloated feature showcase; which is bound to fail because the scope is so huge that not even with 3000 people you can accomplish such level of detail (without considering that with their fast development cycle, their engine will be ancient by the time the game is released in a year or 2). Frontier on this did the excellent choice to start lean, have the basics in and get the game out fast. The problems came after the release, when many users like me (and not like you, because you are happy with this game), hoped to see radical improvements in the implementation of the various mechanics in game; and instead everything was left as it was; with the issues that we all know very well.
SC has no need for money; they continue to get money because they continue to make ships; and they continue to add features and increase the scope; the more money goes in, the more stuff get add; if Frontier made a game with 3M, they can too. People are crazy that continue to send money in their way, what should they do...send money back and say "no thanks"?

Do you prefer an empty universe, or the promise of a full universe on paper? They went for different route, but neither is winning anything, if you look at the big picture; each way has pros and cons.

Steam sell tons of "early access games"; which is fundamentally what they did with ED: basic game out; improvement later, but the full price on the sticker. This is their way; I don't really mind, until I see a 50 dollars expansion and still the game lack the basics improvements that should have been done months after launch, not years.

Glad that you enjoy it; I will continue my personal battle to get this game to be what was promised; and if I get tired; I will just dump the folder in the trash and be done with it.

 

[RebellGhost]

Does anyone know how long the discount will be there?

 

[Frop]

you can take the balanced view that perhaps it just costs a lot of time and money and effort to develop a complex game, and that Frontier, with the best will in the world, perhaps underestimated that./

Exactly my thoughts, a lot has changed in the past 30 years and churning out a new title is a completely different ballgame nowadays. It still doesn't excuse announcing a mystery "season" and putting it on sale before we even know what's going to be in it exactly.

- - - Updated - - -

SC is slower; because CR is creating a bloated feature showcase; which is bound to fail because the scope is so huge that not even with 3000 people you can accomplish such level of detail

But it will have pets. PETS!

 

[Luipaard]

It's a legit way to distribute it like this. There are other ways, but it's legit. As a fan, you often buy exclusitivity, directly enjoyment and pioneer spirit with a title, product or whatever you are fan of. I could buy the Lord Of The Rings I movie directly on release. When LOTR I Extended Version came out, I wasn't forced to buy it. But when I wanted to see or own the additional scenes, I could not do other than pay the full price again.



In general, I can decide if I buy some or any LOTR titles directly or if I wait for years to buy a LOTR I-III Extended Edition Box for a lower price... But if I wait for years, in that time, I maybe can't share the experience and enjoyment as others could do. It's up to you, where you see your prefered values. The value in direct product enjoyment or the value in your money safe. No judgment from me in one or the other direction. But either way, you always pay a price, may it be monetary or something you can't physically grab like emotions and experiences.



Coming back to ED, you chose to buy it directly to get in the direct enjoyment. You will have certainly more experience, more ships, higher rankings, maybe even a reputation (as an explorer or fighter), where others will just start to play the game in "Holiday 2015" at all. It's up to you. Frontier has chosen a legit way. If it will be a way which pays off (in order to earn money, which should be the goal for every company), we will decide by buying it or not.

 

[Ryder35]

No, I didn't because I didn't believe it would happen; and Star Citizen was more convincing, to be honest.

Can you find where did I claimed "just now pulled it out"? I said that since the KS campaign, there was this unwritten promise of doing planetary landing and exploration by foot; I will find the video where DB himself pitch it; and there was another video done with both DB and CR, interviewed by some guy about their respective KS projects, where they talk about planetary landing and first person navigation.

These are smart people; they won't risk a lawsuit, putting on paper something that then they are forced to deliver. Obviously you won't find it on the KS page; I don't think that you are so naive to not consider that they have also the legal aspects to factor in.

I simply said that the extras that are now offered as expansion, were basically part of the original game idea; but were never written down as deliverable. I am ok to pay for them; I do not believe that any of us users or backers should pay these more than 20 dollars thou. This is my opinion; if I get rich tomorrow and go buy Frontier; I will make it as public statement from the company; fair enough?

Here is an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM0Gcl7iUM8
The KS started on Nov 2012; ended after 2 months on JAn 2013; this video is from Dec 2012....

From the KS page:

"The initial release of Elite: Dangerous doesn't mark the end of development. We intend to continue expanding the game both with new content and new features. A good example of this is planetary landings. We have an ambitious goal for landings to include new gameplay and a rich variety of worlds to explore. To achieve our goal we want the planets to come to life. We also want to add leaving the ships so you can explore space stations or board enemy vessels or even just to look around your own.

The main reason for treating these as expansions is so we can approach these with the proper development resources that we require to do them well. We don't plan or desire to just tick a box, we want to make these additions something significant."

It was always made clear that PL were a paid expansion

 

[Javert]

As it stands my information is correct to the best of my knowledge, but don't take my word for it. You can confirm that standard beta doesn't get you the expansion in this thread: http://Post Your Elite Dangerous: Horizons questions answered
and you can confirm what access you have from Frontier's store by looking at your previous purchases. I have no information on any future changes that FD may or may not make, nor does anyone else, and any advice they may offer you on future changes at this point is merely speculation.

Hi Sandmann,

Yes I've seen that thread. Unfortunately it's even more complicated than the thread.

As it stands:
- You put between £50 and £80 into the original kickstarter you are standard beta
- You purchased standard beta from the ED store later on you are standard beta.

In both these scenarios you are not entitled to the expansions, nor the expansion beta.

- You put in between £80 and £100 to the kickstarter

In this case you are standard beta, plus you can download "all additional content" upon release. In other words you will get Horizons on release but you won't get the beta of horizons (Michael B confirmed this earlier on this thread).

The questioner appeared to be in that category £80 to £100 and he had purchased the lifetime expansion pass, which I agree is currently the only way to ensure beta test access to all future expansions.

My point was that by doing this, you are effectively paying £97.50 (pro rate to the Horizons only price) for content that you already paid for previously (the expansion upon release). Personally I don't think that's a good deal that you have to pay £97.50 for something you have already bought, in order to get the beta access for £32.50 (pro rata), especially when everyone else only has to pay a much lower amount for the beta access (£10 extra for the Horizons only package).

That's why I suggested to wait until the beta date is announced to see whether they offer an "Upgrade to beta" at a lower price as the questioner may already have access to the expansion itself and is, in my view, over paying for the right to be in the beta.

All that said, if you have plenty of disposable income and you absolutely want to buy this now, then I agree that it's the only way to ensure beta access if you are in the situation described above.

Edit: Looking back the original questioner said they put $75USD into the original kickstarter which was probably only standard beta access (I don't have the USD prices) and did not include the expansions. That being the case, the above issues would not apply and he / she was right to purchase the lifetime pass so Sandmann's original advice was correct. The above issue applies more to those who backed between £80 and £100 GBP in original Kickstarter.

 

[Mephane]

Don't forget! We're streaming live from @Gamescom between 11-4pm BST. Join us for exclusive content & prizes #EDGC15 http://ow.ly/Qhwck

Yeah, rub it into the faces of all of us who can't attend in person and not even watch live (besides, even watching live gave you such a miniscule chance at anything that the option becomes practically irrelevant).

 

[trevcart1979]

My only problem is I paid £39.99 for the game, no beta or early stuff like that. And now if I want to play the new expansion I have to pay for either the expansion it self £29.99 or for a lifetime pass £120. But if a new player waits for it to come out he will automatically get it for the base game price of £39.99. It just seems a bit to expensive for players that have bought the game before all this expansion stuff.

Don't get me wrong I will probably end up getting the expansion but as stated above just seems expensive.

Anyway my rant over!!