Another "NPC OP plz nerf" thread (Supervision of NPCs)

[Ian Skippy]

Great, now what about the rest of the game?

Smuggling isn't the only thing impacted by cheating NPC's.

Say I'm a pirate and I'm having a load of fun running around in a RES site robbing the poor little NPC miners. Not profitable, but it's fun as hell, and that's what we're all playing the game for right?

I notice some police pop in so I go silent running and slip behind an asteroid to hide until they move on. Except they don't. Instead they spot me dead on from 5km away with no LoS and no radar detection and fly in a straight line to me to start scanning.

Lovely, now my night of fun shenanigans just turned into pure annoyance. What a mood killer.

I am not entirely sure what point you're trying to make, but I guess its that there is stuff that needs to be improved on? If so, I agree. As a PvE pirate I'd already be glad if I could rob a Hauler in my FDL without it just going suicidal-ape on me with its pulse laser, for example. Having asteroids break LOS as with CQC would be fantastic, and I am all for more realistic NPC detection as long as they also get better at using 'the real tools'. No point in removing their godly LOS if it gets replaced with a 500m scanner and a near-blind AI.

Regardless of all that: of all the things that one can complain about, the OP is just complaining about his own mistakes. Deploying SR when 200m from a cop? Seriously? Not even waiting ten seconds after dropping out? Then boosting in a feeble attempt to exploit the cops bugged scanner? There's loads of stuff that needs to be discussed and improved, but lets quite the sillyness.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

I am not entirely sure what point you're trying to make, but I guess its that there is stuff that needs to be improved on? If so, I agree. As a PvE pirate I'd already be glad if I could rob a Hauler in my FDL without it just going suicidal-ape on me with its pulse laser, for example. Having asteroids break LOS as with CQC would be fantastic, and I am all for more realistic NPC detection as long as they also get better at using 'the real tools'. No point in removing their godly LOS if it gets replaced with a 500m scanner and a near-blind AI.

Regardless of all that: of all the things that one can complain about, the OP is just complaining about his own mistakes. Deploying SR when 200m from a cop? Seriously? Not even waiting ten seconds after dropping out? Then boosting in a feeble attempt to exploit the cops bugged scanner? There's loads of stuff that needs to be discussed and improved, but lets quite the sillyness.

My point is these problems actually became apparent before smuggling became the de-facto credit farm, and they have larger implications throughout the game which stifles gameplay and creativity.

If my memory serves me well, NPC's used to have LoS but it was changed in one of the AI updates to "make them more challenging." Possibly this was a solution to fix those awkward moments when an NPC would just burn off into the distance in a straight line or waffle back and forth awkwardly while you followed melted it. If that's the case, the solution is worse than the problem.

Locking on to people within 500m was supposed to balance stealth PvP builds. Somehow, by someone's description. It didn't affect anything, if you're fighting a face-hugger being able to lock on to him when you're close enough to touch him, and he's close enough to touch you, is pointless. He's already got you unless he sucks. Yet as a side effect we now have NPC's cruising up to people and ramming them to get a scan in when combined with the AI's magical LoS and it's complete lack of being able to multitask.

There's just been no QA testing in the AI patches for the last year. That's the real problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[Ian Skippy]

My point is these problems actually became apparent before smuggling became the de-facto credit farm, and they have larger implications throughout the game which stifles gameplay and creativity.

If my memory serves me well, NPC's used to have LoS but it was changed in one of the AI updates to "make them more challenging." Possibly this was a solution to fix those awkward moments when an NPC would just burn off into the distance in a straight line or waffle back and forth awkwardly while you followed melted it. If that's the case, the solution is worse than the problem.

Locking on to people within 500m was supposed to balance stealth PvP builds. Somehow, by someone's description. It didn't affect anything, if you're fighting a face-hugger being able to lock on to him when you're close enough to touch him, and he's close enough to touch you, is pointless. He's already got you unless he sucks. Yet as a side effect we now have NPC's cruising up to people and ramming them to get a scan in when combined with the AI's magical LoS and it's complete lack of being able to multitask.

There's just been no QA testing in the AI patches for the last year. That's the real problem that needs to be addressed.

Oh, no doubt. But if I may reduce this subject to a rather infantile binary choice: would you prefer to see the AI buffed or nerfed? The way I see it the AI needs to be improved, both in ability and bugs. Just 'removing the cheats' would make the game more boring, not less, IMHO. Anyway, 2.1 and all that. Lets wait and see.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Oh, no doubt. But if I may reduce this subject to a rather infantile binary choice: would you prefer to see the AI buffed or nerfed? The way I see it the AI needs to be improved, both in ability and bugs. Just 'removing the cheats' would make the game more boring, not less, IMHO. Anyway, 2.1 and all that. Lets wait and see.

The cheats don't make the AI more challenging, they just dumb down it's behavior and make it simple to understand so that all you need to do to completely circumvent it and make it irrelevant is the 3 easy steps that have already been outlined.

Right?

These changes to the AI didn't make it difficult, they made it repetitive and predictable. Dynamic AI behavior that is close to but not truly random is genuine difficulty, because the player has to respond dynamically, not settle into a routine that a pre-schooler could understand and perform without error.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

The cheats don't make the AI more challenging, they just dumb down it's behavior and make it simple to understand so that all you need to do to completely circumvent it and make it irrelevant is the 3 easy steps that have already been outlined.

Right?

These changes to the AI didn't make it difficult, they made it repetitive and predictable. Dynamic AI behavior that is close to but not truly random is genuine difficulty, because the player has to respond dynamically, not settle into a routine that a pre-schooler could understand and perform without error.

These things are apparently being addressed come 2.1 so can we please stop pummeling theis poor dead horse until 2.1 drops because this is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[Raile]

I don't know, if you're having trouble with the ai between combat and smuggling, maybe this isn't the game for you. Doing the same failing strategy over and over again with your fingers crossed isn't the way to do it.

My self-imposed rules for smuggling:
Rule 1; Always wait 5-10 seconds after dropping at a station before moving towards it while on a smuggling mission - if something drops during this time then 90% of the time it will be mision related...high-tail it out
Rule 2: If you get a warning from system security in your chat that they have identified a potential smuggler and intecepting then a system security will appear the next time you drop out of warp. Either jump to the next system and back or slow right down, drop to normal space and then re-jump to the station when the security vessle drop into space wth you
Rule 3: If you are not sure you can esacape the scanning range within the scanning timer (about 8-10 seconds) shoot the security vessle once. This automatically breaks the scan and nets you a small fine which I can guarantee will be lower than the pay-out on the mission. Once the scan in broken, high-tail it out

This CMDR knows whats up.

 

[Ian Skippy]

The cheats don't make the AI more challenging, they just dumb down it's behavior and make it simple to understand so that all you need to do to completely circumvent it and make it irrelevant is the 3 easy steps that have already been outlined.

Right?

These changes to the AI didn't make it difficult, they made it repetitive and predictable. Dynamic AI behavior that is close to but not truly random is genuine difficulty, because the player has to respond dynamically, not settle into a routine that a pre-schooler could understand and perform without error.

As our yellow friend below your post says there's little point in arguing that. Its also not the topic on the OP. Yes, I want kickass brilliant fantastic awesome AI. No, the 'cheats' dont make it brilliant fantastic and awesome. But the question is: would removal of the 'cheats' without any other change make smuggling more fun?

The OP says yes. I say no. You say super awesome stuff would be super awesome.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

These things are apparently being addressed come 2.1 so can we please stop pummeling theis poor dead horse until 2.1 drops because this is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

As our yellow friend below your post says there's little point in arguing that. Its also not the topic on the OP. Yes, I want kickass brilliant fantastic awesome AI. No, the 'cheats' dont make it brilliant fantastic and awesome. But the question is: would removal of the 'cheats' without any other change make smuggling more fun?

The OP says yes. I say no. You say super awesome stuff would be super awesome.

Nope. AI should remain a constant topic. It's supposedly been addressed in every major patch to date yet here we are.

I get that offering constructive criticism to Frontier is like flicking boogers at a Mustard Slime, but someday something we say about the AI will stick and we'll see positive results.

Persistence proceeds progress.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Nope. AI should remain a constant topic. It's supposedly been addressed in every major patch to date yet here we are.

I get that offering constructive criticism to Frontier is like flicking boogers at a Mustard Slime, but someday something we say about the AI will stick and we'll see positive results.

Persistence proceeds progress.

Okay. Generally people consider it to be polite to join a conversation by saying things relevant to the topic, but if you want to just repeat a speech again go nuts. Makes the idea of a conversation kinda pointless, but I am sure a monologue would be fine with you as well.

 

[deathmagnet]

What's the name of the programmer that was in charge of the NPC but got reassigned? Sarah I believe? Didn't she have plans to make the NPC's even tougher? I sure hope they get more challenging (in combat, the constant stream of interdiction's can get annoying). But seriously. Smuggling super easy right now.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Okay. Generally people consider it to be polite to join a conversation by saying things relevant to the topic, but if you want to just repeat a speech again go nuts. Makes the idea of a conversation kinda pointless, but I am sure a monologue would be fine with you as well.

Hey Crimson Kaim, anything I've said off topic yet? [hotas]

 

[Ginrikuzuma]

The only thing I hate about NPCs is sometimes as soon as you jump into a new system they start interdiction without even given you the slightest bit of time to aim your ship elsewhere and send both of you straight into a star without enough time to neither evade nor submit to the interdiction. They magically spawn behind you in said system a few too many times.

 

[lysan]

What's the name of the programmer that was in charge of the NPC but got reassigned? Sarah I believe? Didn't she have plans to make the NPC's even tougher? I sure hope they get more challenging (in combat, the constant stream of interdiction's can get annoying). But seriously. Smuggling super easy right now.

It's time to get down to business, respect the BANANA! (yes Sarah and team are making new evil plans with the minions (NPCS))

[video=youtube;iq1Y4PF0eKE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq1Y4PF0eKE&nohtml5=False[/video]

it better be good.. ..

 

[Arry]

Well I think it is a liberty. I take a few little smuggling missions and all I get is hassle. Cops here, cops there, cops everywhere, it is just wrong. They should be out there chasing, no, hassling real criminals and leave me to my business. I mean, I am not hurting anyone, but there they are; time after time. It makes me so angry, so angry; that I have to take deep, long breaths as I type, for fear of saying something that can get me banned.

Example: The other day, I was running towards an outpost; again, just minding my own business and up pops another security ship. Well this is going to really cut into my profits. More time wasted, by having to boost and jump out of the system, then turning around and re-targeting the system I had just come from; it is just so time consuming; I must have wasted and I am not exaggerating here, the whole escapade, must have cast me at least 3 minutes. Don't developers realise how much that is going to dig into my profits and to cap it off, I jump back into the system and another security ship, pops up in the comms. This just ridiculous and I am not sure how much more of this hassle I can take. Why can't they just go to the other stations in the system? Why do they always and I am not exaggerating here; they always pick on me?

I never got this hassle when I was playing Lemmings, why should I get it here; it's just wrong, must be broken or something.

 

[Ian Skippy]

What's the name of the programmer that was in charge of the NPC but got reassigned? Sarah I believe? Didn't she have plans to make the NPC's even tougher? I sure hope they get more challenging (in combat, the constant stream of interdiction's can get annoying). But seriously. Smuggling super easy right now.

Yes, SJA. She was working on a new AI update but got reassigned. She's been assigned back to AI and she's said the update is finally ready and will be included in 2.1. A number of bugs, including ram-scanning and 'playing kebab' are also confirmed to be fixed. Most people in this topic know this, so any 'AI must be better!' stuff is just pointless venting.

 

[deathmagnet]

Fold

Sometimes it's important to keep things into perspective. "Wasting time". I remember when the Junga - Thosia (forgot how to spell that one) was one of the best ways to make money in the universe and that took TIME. These Robigo missions make Junga look like a worthless piece of scum.

The ability to make money in the Universe is sickening now. Kinda makes money in the Universe feel like this:

Spoiler

[/IMG]

 

[ShimEnki]

Well I think it is a liberty. I take a few little smuggling missions and all I get is hassle. Cops here, cops there, cops everywhere, it is just wrong. They should be out there chasing, no, hassling real criminals and leave me to my business. I mean, I am not hurting anyone, but there they are; time after time. It makes me so angry, so angry; that I have to take deep, long breaths as I type, for fear of saying something that can get me banned.

Example: The other day, I was running towards an outpost; again, just minding my own business and up pops another security ship. Well this is going to really cut into my profits. More time wasted, by having to boost and jump out of the system, then turning around and re-targeting the system I had just come from; it is just so time consuming; I must have wasted and I am not exaggerating here, the whole escapade, must have cast me at least 3 minutes. Don't developers realise how much that is going to dig into my profits and to cap it off, I jump back into the system and another security ship, pops up in the comms. This just ridiculous and I am not sure how much more of this hassle I can take. Why can't they just go to the other stations in the system? Why do they always and I am not exaggerating here; they always pick on me?

I never got this hassle when I was playing Lemmings, why should I get it here; it's just wrong, must be broken or something.

You CMDR are 100% accurate regarding your personal point of view as no one can invalidate that....and i am certain many other CMDRs who do not want to face fanboi reply mayhem feel the same.

But as long as CMDRs continue to take smuggling missions FD would be 100% accurate in assuming the player base wants it as it is and not only that, if the recent changes were towards more difficulty they would also be accurate in assuming that this vector should continue and therefore become even more difficult; basically, all ahead full and steady as she goes.

 

[Arry]

Sometimes it's important to keep things into perspective. "Wasting time". I remember when the Junga - Thosia (forgot how to spell that one). Was one of the best ways to make money in the universe and that took TIME. These Robigo missions make Junga look like a worthless piece of scum.

The ability to make money in the Universe is sickening now. Kinda makes money in the Universe feel like this:

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/A4V8vJ0.jpg?2

Perspective? I am the victim here. A victim of an oppressive regime, where is the perspective in that? What next, fines for flying too slow, or too fast?

 

[deathmagnet]

What next, fines for flying too slow

i certainly hope so

What next, fines for flying too fast?

kinda already exists.

 

[Some1else]

Could somebody please explain to me what the heck is the desired result being sought here?

Is it to make the Pirate and Police NPC's play like human players and follow the same rules? Because if so, I don't think the "finished product" will be what the OP thinks it will be.

Has anyone ever be interdicted by any type of NPC that they couldn't out boost, and escape with a properly spec'd ship? Because I haven't.

I did two Robigo runs this morning, and had everything the OP brought up happen to me, and got out clean every time. A spec Cobra, with no weapons.

However, just recently, I had my first PvP interdiction, and the out come way not the same. And going back to show that Commander how good I really way, ended the same way. So, Two re-buys. Well player Commander![up]

So go ahead and fix the NPC's. I hope you enjoy what you get!

LLaP

S1E